Insulin vets and experienced users only plz

[jamescb77]

I'm referring to its relative action level at the one hour mark. Hum r has a bigger under the curve area than log. This would me greater nutrient shuttling

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[Jizzmo]

Actually, do you have links? Google hasn't been helpful.

I'm a type 2 diabetic who is just about off of Lantus, so I'm curious.

i cant find the study i was talking about on lantus (or levemir, i dont remember) right now, i thought it was easy to find via simple googling but i seem to be missing the proper buzzwords for pubmed.
i do remember that it was done on cultured cells (in vitro) and showed an increase of insulin resistance by 50-70% or so after just a single use of continuous insulin administration...
this is a good starting point though.
Insulin resistance in multiple tissues in patients with type 1 diabetes mellitus on long-term continuous subcutaneous insulin infusion therapy. - PubMed - NCBI
something along the lines of "continuous insulin administration insulin sensitivity", dont have much time to seek now though, ill look later


towards the other discussion here:

the area under curve for insulin does NOT reflect its "strength" or the effectts on glycogen levels, carbohydrate metabolism etc either.

look at when the effects on carb metabolism peak... after 2-3 hours, and they last until the 5-6 hour mark.. humalog is ALREADY OUT of your system by the 3 hour mark and THATS when its effects peak (not the effects on blood sugar obviously, but the effects on glucose uptake).
TEMPORARY serum levels of insulin have nothing to do with the amount of glucose your muscles take up. its a delayed effect.

if you use R then this effect probably peaks 5 or 6 hours after your workout, at a point where youre definitely NOT eating your PWO meal or thinking about getting in carbs.

Comparison of insulin aspart and lispro: pharmacokinetic and metabolic effects. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[kinglewy]

I have a bunch of lantus im waiting to try...wanna get to mid single digits first. But the thing about these studies is alot of these diabetics eat like shit...I mean big time. The two diabetics that I get log and lantus from are both obese...they have these little caches of snacks hidden around their house with little debbie snack cakes and cookies and candy.To them of they take their insulin and metformin they feel they "deserve" a treat so they binge on these snacks a couple times a day. Eating like that probably has their insulin sensitivity wrecked pretty good.

But I would guess that someone following a strict bodybuilding diet with clean carbs and not too many could get away with using lantus a little longer than a normal diabetic who eats whatever they feel like eating. Not only that but exercise and weight lifitng and cardio will also serve to help insulin sensitivity. And with all the GDA's out there along with metformin lantus could probably be used for 4 weeks...atleast that is the basic protocol I have read from others like Mike Arnold...4 on 4 off.

And as far as log vs. R I read numerous reports of R being more anabolic than log so I gave it a shot and I definitely agree...I got fatter quicker on log than I did with R and R did seem to put more quality size on than log did.

 

[kinglewy]

Well for those in the US without a script unfortunately Hum/Nov-R is the only insulin that can be purchased OTC at the pharmacy.

I'd like to try Humalog, personally, but it's so much more of a pain in the ass to get ahold of.

Most diabetics get two types of insulin prescribed for them...usually a slow slin like lantus or levemere and then humalog or novolog that they can use before meals. But alot of them dont like the log...they dont like the peak and they dont like constantly having to inject.

Alot of the ones I know actually have a ton of log just sitting in their fridge that they never use and would love to make a few bucks off of it...same with metformin...they either forget to take it with meals or just dont take it and end up having bottles full of met sitting around their house that they will sell.

 

[hilly2008]

I have a bunch of lantus im waiting to try...wanna get to mid single digits first. But the thing about these studies is alot of these diabetics eat like shit...I mean big time. The two diabetics that I get log and lantus from are both obese...they have these little caches of snacks hidden around their house with little debbie snack cakes and cookies and candy.To them of they take their insulin and metformin they feel they "deserve" a treat so they binge on these snacks a couple times a day. Eating like that probably has their insulin sensitivity wrecked pretty good.



But I would guess that someone following a strict bodybuilding diet with clean carbs and not too many could get away with using lantus a little longer than a normal diabetic who eats whatever they feel like eating. Not only that but exercise and weight lifitng and cardio will also serve to help insulin sensitivity. And with all the GDA's out there along with metformin lantus could probably be used for 4 weeks...atleast that is the basic protocol I have read from others like Mike Arnold...4 on 4 off.



And as far as log vs. R I read numerous reports of R being more anabolic than log so I gave it a shot and I definitely agree...I got fatter quicker on log than I did with R and R did seem to put more quality size on than log did.

I just don't see how R could be more anabolic bar the fact it's active longer which is fixed by pre n post jabs surely ?


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[thewizkid]

milos sarcev a pioneer of insulin had me using humalog pre and post and i believe thats what he prefers his clients to use but he can make humalin R work if you can't get humalog, that being said he still prefers humalog

 

[RamboStallone]

I'm referring to its relative action level at the one hour mark. Hum r has a bigger under the curve area than log. This would me greater nutrient shuttling

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Yes that's the onset time, that's why I have a small meal 30mins post injection. The peak is later.

 

[RamboStallone]

milos sarcev a pioneer of insulin had me using humalog pre and post and i believe thats what he prefers his clients to use but he can make humalin R work if you can't get humalog, that being said he still prefers humalog

Most of the well respected slin guru's recommend log.

 

[Justin Jordan]

i cant find the study i was talking about on lantus (or levemir, i dont remember) right now, i thought it was easy to find via simple googling but i seem to be missing the proper buzzwords for pubmed.
i do remember that it was done on cultured cells (in vitro) and showed an increase of insulin resistance by 50-70% or so after just a single use of continuous insulin administration...
this is a good starting point though.
Insulin resistance in multiple tissues in patients with type 1 diabetes mellitus on long-term continuous subcutaneous insulin infusion therapy. - PubMed - NCBI
something along the lines of "continuous insulin administration insulin sensitivity", dont have much time to seek now though, ill look later

Thanks!

 

[Freak1976]

Seems that metformin also has been shown in some studies lately to have other benefits to it as well. I'm pretty intrigued by it.

On my off days from slin and higher carbs, I'll usually take 500mg (half a 1g pill) 2-3 times that day. I feel much fuller which is nice to have when not using slin that day.

Yes I've heard of its health benefits as wel. But what about what I heard about something about it affecting androgen receptor ? Or is that something that guys like us using aas shouldn't be worried about ? Also is met easily available or is it script ?

 

[gearbankintl]

great topic

I jave used both R and log and I do not see much difference in results.

Usually do 7-10i.u. i.m. at first meal upon waking with hgh.


then train approximately 3 hours later, shake 30-45 min before workout. Shake during workout with carbs+bcaa's+50-75g protein that I drink about 1/3 then sip the rest through the session.

post workout slin 7-10i.u. + hgh with shake 75p/75-100c/bcaa's or meal same ratio.

It tends tow ork very well for me and ideally I train by the lunch, and my last carbs for the day are early afternoon. It seems I get best results for size yet stay leaner within this manner and time frames.



Aft

 

[The Grim Repper]

Yes I've heard of its health benefits as wel. But what about what I heard about something about it affecting androgen receptor ? Or is that something that guys like us using aas shouldn't be worried about ? Also is met easily available or is it script ?

It has shown to affect androgen receptors and in one study at least - in a good way. Metformin has been shown to inhibit IGF-IR upregulation in prostate cancer cells by androgens which interferes in the progression of the cancer cells' activity.

As AAS users, we should be more concerned with prostate health since androgens like DHT have been linked not only to benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) but also prostate cancer. So, AAS users should naturally have no shortage of these androgens like DHT in circulation - essentially increasing the likelihood of developing issues.

Typically, antiandrogens have been used in the fight against prostate cancer cells, but they do not inhibit androgen receptor dependent upregulation of the cells. So, in this instance, the combination of antiandrogens along with metformin may help to work in concert to fight cancer causing an anti-tumor effect in a sense.

Basically, I think it's a little bit of prostate insurance to use it if one uses AAS.

Metformin/Glucophage is a Merck pharmaceutical and typically requires a script. Although some careful research and checking out sponsors on the vastness of the internet should prove fruitful in obtaining it.

 

[concreteguy]

I've mainly done just log pre. Last month or so started log pre and pwo. Last year I woudk do 5wk on 3 off. I only have ever used it pre and only train days of course. I think by taking off the days u dnt train u can run it longer without desensitizing. Im no expert but this is what I believe. I'm also curiosi about metaformin or berberine for those off wks as I've heard works good.

Mike Arnold just started a large thread about exactly that. You may want to look into that?

CG

 

[The Grim Repper]

Mike Arnold just started a large thread about exactly that. You may want to look into that?

CG

You have a link to that thread brother?

 

[Jizzmo]

You have a link to that thread brother?

this one
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...arnold-protocol-5x-per-week-indefinitely.html

 

[jamescb77]

It has shown to affect androgen receptors and in one study at least - in a good way. Metformin has been shown to inhibit IGF-IR upregulation in prostate cancer cells by androgens which interferes in the progression of the cancer cells' activity.

As AAS users, we should be more concerned with prostate health since androgens like DHT have been linked not only to benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) but also prostate cancer. So, AAS users should naturally have no shortage of these androgens like DHT in circulation - essentially increasing the likelihood of developing issues.

Typically, antiandrogens have been used in the fight against prostate cancer cells, but they do not inhibit androgen receptor dependent upregulation of the cells. So, in this instance, the combination of antiandrogens along with metformin may help to work in concert to fight cancer causing an anti-tumor effect in a sense.

Basically, I think it's a little bit of prostate insurance to use it if one uses AAS.

Metformin/Glucophage is a Merck pharmaceutical and typically requires a script. Although some careful research and checking out sponsors on the vastness of the internet should prove fruitful in obtaining it.

I have never seen a study saying met can benefit androgen receptors. I would like to see this as I have only heard of it negatively impacting them.

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[Jizzmo]

same here. imo metformin is a "cutting drug"...
it activates so many pathways beneficial towards fat loss but detrimental towards muscle growth.
it also decreases carbohydrate absorption by ~30 (iirc) %.
its really nothing you wanna use on bulks.

downregulating IGF is not a good thing either, and the downregulation certainly wont be tissue specific to prostate cells...

 

[The Grim Repper]

I have never seen a study saying met can benefit androgen receptors. I would like to see this as I have only heard of it negatively impacting them.

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The study I referred to didn't say it 'benefitted' them, I didn't mean to imply it benefitted them, however, it did 'benefit' them from a health standpoint in interfering with androgen influenced up regulation in prostate cancer.

Metformin Inhibits Androgen-Induced IGF-IR Up-Regulation in Prostate Cancer Cells by Disrupting Membrane-Initiated Androgen Signaling

 

[The Grim Repper]

same here. imo metformin is a "cutting drug"...
it activates so many pathways beneficial towards fat loss but detrimental towards muscle growth.
it also decreases carbohydrate absorption by ~30 (iirc) %.
its really nothing you wanna use on bulks.

I know that metformin increases the ease of which cells accept glucose from the bloodstream by lowering glucose production by the liver. It also signals the pancreas to excrete more insulin.

downregulating IGF is not a good thing either, and the downregulation certainly wont be tissue specific to prostate cells...

IGF-1R is a receptor activated by IGF-1. It mediates IGF-1. This is true that it's not limited to prostate cells (lung and breast tissue cancers have shown similar studies). Your point is well taken, however my input was only using metformin to assist with insulin sensitivity (which suffers even more if using GH).
I'm sure dose dependency has a part in this, but to your point, I do wonder what type of inhibition of IGF systemically would happen with the much less than therapeutic dosages one would use to simply help insulin sensitivity and whether those degredations in IGF activity would negate benefits to insulin/glucose utilization, etc.

 

[Freak1976]

It has shown to affect androgen receptors and in one study at least - in a good way. Metformin has been shown to inhibit IGF-IR upregulation in prostate cancer cells by androgens which interferes in the progression of the cancer cells' activity.



As AAS users, we should be more concerned with prostate health since androgens like DHT have been linked not only to benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) but also prostate cancer. So, AAS users should naturally have no shortage of these androgens like DHT in circulation - essentially increasing the likelihood of developing issues.



Typically, antiandrogens have been used in the fight against prostate cancer cells, but they do not inhibit androgen receptor dependent upregulation of the cells. So, in this instance, the combination of antiandrogens along with metformin may help to work in concert to fight cancer causing an anti-tumor effect in a sense.



Basically, I think it's a little bit of prostate insurance to use it if one uses AAS.



Metformin/Glucophage is a Merck pharmaceutical and typically requires a script. Although some careful research and checking out sponsors on the vastness of the internet should prove fruitful in obtaining it.

Awesome thx a lot brotha. I appreciate the info man!