Interesting in regards to protein.

[sma]

QUESTION: In an off-season scenario, in a 24 hour period...how many grams of protein per pound of bodyweight do you think is required to
gain the maximum amount of muscle?
Dr. Connelly you said you need a 30 gram dose of animal protein every 3 to 4 hours to get your 3 grams of leucine

I guess the good news is a lot of things work because it’s relatively easy to get big and strong if you’re going to work hard at it. I came to the conclusion with all the different training programs out there — and there are thousands of training programs – that every expert has a different idea of how to train, and yet they all can work. So that’s the good news.

Thank you for the Post Dante been reading up on all your posts since I joined got a few to go still.

Personally I eat the max amount of protein I can absord and utilize in a day
currently 554 grams (66 from eggs/ 156 chicken breast/ 82.5 blade steak/65 inside round/ 125 whey blend/60gram iso)

1 bowel movement a day no bloat currently 190 5'7 contest condition without diuretics( so 184 dry to the bone)

ecto/endo (easy to loose fat hard to put on muscle without getting fat (until I found what works)

diet works out to be 45%pro/30%carb/25%fat... This allows me for ultimate utilization and lean growth ,,, tried everything out there 33/33/33 ,, 40/30/30... eat when hungry. 500 gram pro keep carbs under 200 and such.. the pre intra post workout shake protocol .. all had there downfalls,

What Im most curious about is digestion and I truly believe not all protein is alike I DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT A STUDY ,, EAT FISH AS YOUR MAIN SOURCE THEN SWITCH TO EGGS AND STEAK ,, THEN TELL ME YOU ARENT GETTING BETTER RESULTS>. AND FOR THE GUYS THAT SAY STEAK EGGS HAS MORE FAT THEN ADD THE SAME AMOUNT OF EVOO EVCO ALMOND BUTTER AND I BET THE STEAK AND EGGS WILL BLOW THAT OUT THE WATR

 

[Swaglantern]

It seems to be all over the board with some examples as high as 4+ a kg?? That's pretty hardcore....and yet it kind of makes sense. When I'm pushing hundreds of miles a week on the bike I can eat 4-6000 calories a day it seems, and not gain weight. Pros that race big tours can eat 6000 calories, a day, and actually lose weight.....balancing the energy requirements of carbs versus the recovery and repair requirements of protein.........mad science.

 

[emeric delczeg]

J. Bosse, B. Dixon. Dietary protein to maximize resistance training: a review and examination of protein spread and change theories
. Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2012, 9:42 doi:10.1186/1550-2783-9-42
Published: 8 September 2012

“The ‘lay’ recommendation to consume 1 g protein/lb of bodyweight/day (2.2 g/kg/day) while resistance training has pervaded for years. Nutrition professionals often deem this lay recommendation excessive and not supported by research. However, as this review shows, this “lay” recommendation aligns well with research that assesses applied outcome measures of strength and body composition…”


Abstract

“An appreciable volume of human clinical data supports increased dietary protein for greater gains from resistance training, but not all findings are in agreement. We recently proposed “protein spread theory” and “protein change theory” in an effort to explain discrepancies in the response to increased dietary protein in weight management interventions. The present review aimed to extend “protein spread theory” and “protein change theory” to studies examining the effects of protein on resistance training induced muscle and strength gains.

Protein spread theory proposed that there must have been a sufficient spread or % difference in g/kg/day protein intake between groups during a protein intervention to see muscle and strength differences.

Protein change theory postulated that for the higher protein group, there must be a sufficient change from baseline g/kg/day protein intake to during study g/kg/day protein intake to see muscle and strength benefits.

Seventeen studies met inclusion criteria. In studies where a higher protein intervention was deemed successful there was, on average, a 66.1% g/kg/day between group intake spread versus a 10.2% g/kg/day spread in studies where a higher protein diet was no more effective than control. The average change in habitual protein intake in studies showing higher protein to be more effective than control was +59.5% compared to +6.5% when additional protein was no more effective than control. The magnitudes of difference between the mean spreads and changes of the present review are similar to our previous review on these theories in a weight management context.
Providing sufficient deviation from habitual intake appears to be an important factor in determining the success of additional protein in enhancing muscle and strength gains from resistance training. An increase in dietary protein favorably effects muscle and strength during resistance training.”

Is a study by Dr.I.Gontzea from Romania with professional weight lifters, he demonstrates that the protein intake depend on how heavy, how long and how many times you train per day. The group of weight lifters (2 hours a day workouts) on 1.5g protein per kg/body, nitrogen balance dropped to negative within four days. This weight lifters where training 2 hour very heavy and intense.

 

[sammy555]

Thank you for the Post Dante been reading up on all your posts since I joined got a few to go still.

Personally I eat the max amount of protein I can absord and utilize in a day
currently 554 grams (66 from eggs/ 156 chicken breast/ 82.5 blade steak/65 inside round/ 125 whey blend/60gram iso)

1 bowel movement a day no bloat currently 190 5'7 contest condition without diuretics( so 184 dry to the bone)

ecto/endo (easy to loose fat hard to put on muscle without getting fat (until I found what works)

diet works out to be 45%pro/30%carb/25%fat... This allows me for ultimate utilization and lean growth ,,, tried everything out there 33/33/33 ,, 40/30/30... eat when hungry. 500 gram pro keep carbs under 200 and such.. the pre intra post workout shake protocol .. all had there downfalls,

What Im most curious about is digestion and I truly believe not all protein is alike I DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT A STUDY ,, EAT FISH AS YOUR MAIN SOURCE THEN SWITCH TO EGGS AND STEAK ,, THEN TELL ME YOU ARENT GETTING BETTER RESULTS>. AND FOR THE GUYS THAT SAY STEAK EGGS HAS MORE FAT THEN ADD THE SAME AMOUNT OF EVOO EVCO ALMOND BUTTER AND I BET THE STEAK AND EGGS WILL BLOW THAT OUT THE WATR

That's a lot of protein but I agree with a lot of what you say. I'm never bloated on very high protein, digestion is awesome and overall feel very good. People talk about protein farts but it's about the one thing that doesn't make me farts. Carbs and fibre are what get my digestive system in a mess if i dont monitor my amounts. I'm also like you in body type so we have a lot in common. That said i do sometimes worry a little about my protein intake even if it's not as high as yours. Steak and eggs do seem to have an amazing effect on body comp for sure, it's such an old bodybuilding staple for a reason I guess

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[DOGGCRAPP]

Just a couple sidenotes concerning myself:

a) its hard for me to comment on threads like this because I own Truenutrition and its very important to me not to look like I am pushing anything on anyone.....I want people to make their own choices and be happy with them

b) Myself nowadays because i am pretty much done with "muscle accumalation or die" mode of operation...I take in 5 meals a day, 3 of which are 50-60 gram protein drinks (and alot of BCAA's), and two which are meals so i would estimate im taking in 260-360 grams of protein a day...a far cry from what I am saying above....but i also take in lower carbs also. But like I said....Im done. But (and i should go and prove the following with a DEXA reading)..I would put my LBM gain in my lifting career up there with anyones..... I put my time in bigtime protein wise for 20 years plus and at first I tried to do it with mod pro/carbs approach and i got larger but....smooth as a Butterball Turkey. I then went over to the 2 grams per bodyweight method and then ate carbs per hunger and upped subtracted carbs as i saw fit....and that worked much much better for me.....and personally made me a huge believer in the thermic effect of food.

c) So still to this day If someone is trying to get bigger and someone can actually differentiate what drugs are doing and what food/training is doing (alot of people seem to forget these things....that the reason they can stay lean and get bigger while eating the way they do while Johnny in Ohio gets fat is because they are taking in 4ius of gh a day and multiple androgens/anabolics and Johnny isnt on gh and is only doing baby dosages of test and deca ....these things tend to get forgotten when advice is given).....im still a fan of the 1.5 grams pro natural or 2.0 grams pro enhanced per pound of bodyweight theory....BCAA's...stay incredible hydrated...do cardio....and surround your workouts with alot of your carbohydrate ingestion

 

[sammy555]

Very good post dogcrap and any of us who have been on this board any time know your not a supplement pusher, we just value your insight. This is a reassuring post to me because it does fit in with my believes and its nice to see someone as knowledgeable as your self with a similar line of thinking.

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[sma]

That's a lot of protein but I agree with a lot of what you say. I'm never bloated on very high protein, digestion is awesome and overall feel very good. People talk about protein farts but it's about the one thing that doesn't make me farts. Carbs and fibre are what get my digestive system in a mess if i dont monitor my amounts. I'm also like you in body type so we have a lot in common. That said i do sometimes worry a little about my protein intake even if it's not as high as yours. Steak and eggs do seem to have an amazing effect on body comp for sure, it's such an old bodybuilding staple for a reason I guess

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

LOL no I get protein farts I just kept lowering it until I reached my max consumption... with this amount these types I am fine,, I only eat rice and pineapple it does wonders for digestion. 7grams of Fructose..

Doggcrapp I agree on the Protein but that being said if one were to get all there protein from shakes or from chicken I think they would get digestive issues atleast I did... I feel strong as a bull with protein I train HIT so carbs dont do anything for me however I know I do need them. I think the correct amount of fats are much more valuable in a diet.

I personally dont think your a supplement pusher you added valuable posts here and seem like a genuine guy in my books. Every concerned with putting on lean mass should be concerned on there diet protein intake.. I find all other supplements though to be more tailored to athletes.. Bcaas and leucine aside

 

[stacked1]

Just a couple sidenotes concerning myself:

a) its hard for me to comment on threads like this because I own Truenutrition and its very important to me not to look like I am pushing anything on anyone.....I want people to make their own choices and be happy with them

b) Myself nowadays because i am pretty much done with "muscle accumalation or die" mode of operation...I take in 5 meals a day, 3 of which are 50-60 gram protein drinks (and alot of BCAA's), and two which are meals so i would estimate im taking in 260-360 grams of protein a day...a far cry from what I am saying above....but i also take in lower carbs also. But like I said....Im done. But (and i should go and prove the following with a DEXA reading)..I would put my LBM gain in my lifting career up there with anyones..... I put my time in bigtime protein wise for 20 years plus and at first I tried to do it with mod pro/carbs approach and i got larger but....smooth as a Butterball Turkey. I then went over to the 2 grams per bodyweight method and then ate carbs per hunger and upped subtracted carbs as i saw fit....and that worked much much better for me.....and personally made me a huge believer in the thermic effect of food.

c) So still to this day If someone is trying to get bigger and someone can actually differentiate what drugs are doing and what food/training is doing (alot of people seem to forget these things....that the reason they can stay lean and get bigger while eating the way they do while Johnny in Ohio gets fat is because they are taking in 4ius of gh a day and multiple androgens/anabolics and Johnny isnt on gh and is only doing baby dosages of test and deca ....these things tend to get forgotten when advice is given).....im still a fan of the 1.5 grams pro natural or 2.0 grams pro enhanced per pound of bodyweight theory....BCAA's...stay incredible hydrated...do cardio....and surround your workouts with alot of your carbohydrate ingestion

Dante, how do you incorporate bcaa and leucine into your diet? Do you take them with meals or separately?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante, how do you incorporate bcaa and leucine into your diet? Do you take them with meals or separately?

I take instantized BCAA's with extra leucine powder (mixed with a sugar free lemonade) pre workout, post workout and pre bed. Personally i think its the most important thing ive done in the last 3 years. I always take them separate of meals but its more because of my personal scheduling.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

double posted

 

[homonunculus]

Is a study by Dr.I.Gontzea from Romania with professional weight lifters, he demonstrates that the protein intake depend on how heavy, how long and how many times you train per day. The group of weight lifters (2 hours a day workouts) on 1.5g protein per kg/body, nitrogen balance dropped to negative within four days. This weight lifters where training 2 hour very heavy and intense.

Gontzea, I., R. Sutzescu, et al. (1974). "The influence of muscular activity on nitrogen balance and on the need of man for proteins." Nutr.Rep.Int. 10(1): 35-43.

Gontzea, I., R. Sutzescu, et al. (1975). "The influence of adaptation to physical effort on nitrogen balance in man." Nutr.Rep.Int. 11(3): 231-236.



-S

 

[emeric delczeg]

Gontzea, I., R. Sutzescu, et al. (1974). "The influence of muscular activity on nitrogen balance and on the need of man for proteins." Nutr.Rep.Int. 10(1): 35-43.

Gontzea, I., R. Sutzescu, et al. (1975). "The influence of adaptation to physical effort on nitrogen balance in man." Nutr.Rep.Int. 11(3): 231-236.



-S

Thank you. Also he shows that older active man (training with weights) need more protein than the younger active man.

 

[homonunculus]

Thank you. Also he shows that older active man (training with weights) need more protein than the younger active man.

Sure! Haven't got that study here, but it does fit with the literature...

In today's publish or perish world of academia where keeping up with the latest technology is part of gaining tenure / being published, it's really a shame that more TRAINING studies are not done. The elegance of a practical hands on experimental design with external validity seems to be less valued than decades ago..

We have tracer studies coming out by the truckload answering some intriguing questions, when (as Dante quoted Peter Lemon indicating), DOSE-RESPONSE long-term training studies with variable levels of protein, macros, timing, etc. - just the basic variable tested over a period of many months with a regimented progressive training regime - would be phenomenal to see done. It's a different kind of work to have to deal with subject adherence, etc. vs. spend much more time in the lab homogenizing muscle samples, etc...

-S

 

[emeric delczeg]

Sure! Haven't got that study here, but it does fit with the literature...

In today's publish or perish world of academia where keeping up with the latest technology is part of gaining tenure / being published, it's really a shame that more TRAINING studies are not done. The elegance of a practical hands on experimental design with external validity seems to be less valued than decades ago..

We have tracer studies coming out by the truckload answering some intriguing questions, when (as Dante quoted Peter Lemon indicating), DOSE-RESPONSE long-term training studies with variable levels of protein, macros, timing, etc. - just the basic variable tested over a period of many months with a regimented progressive training regime - would be phenomenal to see done. It's a different kind of work to have to deal with subject adherence, etc. vs. spend much more time in the lab homogenizing muscle samples, etc...

-S

The US National Academy of Sciences, Food and Nutrition Board have repeated errors for the last 50+ years, they have studied only sedentary individuals. The 1989 handbook of the RDAs the latest issue, quotes as its reference sources studies done from 1964 to 1977. Gontzea was the first to show that exercise cause the body to use protein at much faster rate.

I recommend on other good study by Dr.Frank Consolazio at the Letterman Army Institute of Research in San Francisco.

 

[homonunculus]

The US National Academy of Sciences, Food and Nutrition Board have repeated errors for the last 50+ years, they have studied only sedentary individuals. The 1989 handbook of the RDAs the latest issue, quotes as its reference sources studies done from 1964 to 1977. Gontzea was the first to show that exercise cause the body to use protein at much faster rate.

I recommend on other good study by Dr.Frank Consolazio at the Letterman Army Institute of Research in San Francisco.

Consolazio, C. F., H. L. Johnson, et al. (1975). "Protein metabolism during intensive training in the young adult." Amer.J.Clin.Nutr. 28: 29-35.

(I have all these old studies in my files here at home...)

I'll have to look that one up, but found it in the Bosse and Dixon review cited above. Looks like an impressive difference comparing 1.39 vs. 2.76 g pro / kg / day. (I can't tell from their table summary whether they're referring to kg or % changes in "Lean Mass" and body fat)

-S