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intermittent fasting and BCAA/Leucine supplements in absence of whole food

Matsuo Munefusa

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I have been intermittent fasting for a few months again to cut some bodyfat and keep insulin sensitivity in my body. It feels healthy and great and I actually have more energy during the day if I wait until 12-1pm to eat (I wake early). I usually drink 2 cups of black coffee with extra cinnamon added and have 10g BCAA and an extra 5g Leucine along with 2 units of GH.

According to my research, supplementing with BCAAs or Leucine without the presence of all the EAAs from whole food will produce a much smaller spike in protein synthesis. So, taking this idea, it seems reasonable to have a protein shake with the BCAAs to produce the best possible spike in protein synthesis in the morning (to boost recovery from training)....however this would draw you out of the fast and ruin the purpose of intermittent fasting....sigh...

So, curious about what my protein levels would be at the deepest part of the fast, I had blood drawn recently and part of the testing was to test my protein level total. Without having taken BCAAs that morning (or any other food) I had my blood drawn around 1pm and my protein levels came back upper/mid range. I had a huge dinner the night before (every night ~3/4lb of some type of meat) which apparently keeps my protein level somewhat high for 16 hours at least. So, my circulating levels of aminos in my blood is upper normal range fasted 16hr post eating.

So, based off of this knowledge, would it be reasonable to continue the course of intermittent fasting and supplementing with BCAAs and expecting I am getting the largest spike in protein synthesis possible WITHOUT having to add in whole foods in the AM (thus ruining the purpose of the fast)?

I guess my priorities are equally weighted: 1) health of my body/insulin sensitivity, 2)muscle gain (minimal goal 2-5lb before the Fall) and 3) fat/water loss (total 5lb loss before Fall). If push came to shove 1) and 3) are my priorities in lieu of any possible mass gain in muscle. I have been at homeostasis for a year now on low dose TRT/GH routine with my weight/muscle mass so the goals may seem low but that would be a huge change for me.

Thanks for your thoughts PM :headbang:
 
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cryptasm

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IMO....Unless you workout in the AM or do fasted cardio i don't see why you would need them but I don't think they would hurt or take you out of fasting mode.

I usually have a protein shake ( 25g either casein or milk protein isolate) with some coconut oil at around 11-12pm everyday when i'm using intermittent fasting. I don't believe you go catabolic in the early AM.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Yeah I agree I don't think they take me out of an IF. I have tested my blood sugar multiple times after taking BCAAs and it doesn't budge....it is such a low caloric intake and any that does get converted into glucose does so relatively slowly, so I think the BCAAs wouldn't pull me out.

Whole food shake certainly would though :D And I guess I would be willing to add it in if there was a reason, but if my amino levels are upper normal range while fasted 16 hours, then there doesn't seem to be a reason to add whole foods in and deviate from intermittent fasting...the BCAAs should spike protein synthesis in the absence of whole foods (the purpose of whole food protein is to elevate circulating levels of aminos so that the protein synthesis spike will be the greatest possible).

My understanding:
protein synthesis in absence of BCAAs or whole foods ---> minimal
protein synthesis with BCAAs alone with low levels of circulating aminos ---> moderate
protein synthesis in combination of BCAAs/whole food protein ---> superior

But if my tested levels are coming back fasted upper normal then it seems I have the circulating EAAs down from my diet the night before, so seems irrelevant to supplement with whole food in the AM to achieve a higher spike in protein synthesis.

Does that make sense??? :cool::eek:
 

nothuman

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If I want to be fasted, I would stay the hell away from BCAA/leucine.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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If I want to be fasted, I would stay the hell away from BCAA/leucine.
Can you describe why? I value your opinion here, so I'd definitely like to learn.

Fasted if primary goals are = insulin sensitivity, fat loss, muscle retention (possibly muscle gain which would obviously occur during sleep as a result of 8 hour feeding window :D ).
 

cryptasm

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IF is a way to lose fat, I think it sucks for building muscle.
I think its ok for retaining muscle without needing EAA's or BCAA's, but if i was concerned about protein synthesis in the AM I'd pbly not use IF.
 

goal245

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I wouldn't call this fasting, all you are doing is "skipping breakfast" Look at how skipping breakfast works out for regular people.

Just eat 6 healthy meals per day every 2-3 hours and you will not need these fads or tricks to lose fat
 

Flex500

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I have been intermittent fasting for a few months again to cut some bodyfat and keep insulin sensitivity in my body. It feels healthy and great and I actually have more energy during the day if I wait until 12-1pm to eat (I wake early). I usually drink 2 cups of black coffee with extra cinnamon added and have 10g BCAA and an extra 5g Leucine along with 2 units of GH.

According to my research, supplementing with BCAAs or Leucine without the presence of all the EAAs from whole food will produce a much smaller spike in protein synthesis. So, taking this idea, it seems reasonable to have a protein shake with the BCAAs to produce the best possible spike in protein synthesis in the morning (to boost recovery from training)....however this would draw you out of the fast and ruin the purpose of intermittent fasting....sigh...

So, curious about what my protein levels would be at the deepest part of the fast, I had blood drawn recently and part of the testing was to test my protein level total. Without having taken BCAAs that morning (or any other food) I had my blood drawn around 1pm and my protein levels came back upper/mid range. I had a huge dinner the night before (every night ~3/4lb of some type of meat) which apparently keeps my protein level somewhat high for 16 hours at least. So, my circulating levels of aminos in my blood is upper normal range fasted 16hr post eating.

So, based off of this knowledge, would it be reasonable to continue the course of intermittent fasting and supplementing with BCAAs and expecting I am getting the largest spike in protein synthesis possible WITHOUT having to add in whole foods in the AM (thus ruining the purpose of the fast)?

I guess my priorities are equally weighted: 1) health of my body/insulin sensitivity, 2)muscle gain (minimal goal 2-5lb before the Fall) and 3) fat/water loss (total 5lb loss before Fall). If push came to shove 1) and 3) are my priorities in lieu of any possible mass gain in muscle. I have been at homeostasis for a year now on low dose TRT/GH routine with my weight/muscle mass so the goals may seem low but that would be a huge change for me.

Thanks for your thoughts PM :headbang:

You really should not need Whole Foods or bcaa's. We have hisnidea that we eat and digestion occurred and we need a protein spike whennin reality digestion is a 24+ hour process. If you have a protein packed dinner the night before and hit your protein goals for the day I just don't see the need for bcaa's. If you are having 3/4 pound of meat at night and hitting your goals you have no reason to fear muscle loss or the need to have bcaa's. You just don't need them.

On the flip side if you don't want to do IF and you want a morning meal...go for it. If you want to do IF though you have no reason to worry about muscle loss in your situation.
 

xpac2

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Skipping breakfast just makes me lose my mind and make poor choices at lunch
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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I wouldn't call this fasting, all you are doing is "skipping breakfast" Look at how skipping breakfast works out for regular people.

Just eat 6 healthy meals per day every 2-3 hours and you will not need these fads or tricks to lose fat
then have you monitored blood glucose levels and they stay the same for you over 10+ years eating 6 meals a day? Do you carb cycle so some meals do not have carbs in them so your insulin stays quiet? I'm trying to learn....after realizing I am in this for life (training, gains, etc)....never will be anything remotely competitive as my other goals in life deviate me away from putting all in (and genetics and unwillingness to go over 200mg/week total in AAS :eek: )...

I noticed my blood glucose readings in the morning began to creep up a few years ago on the type of diet you are talking about (6 meals a day)....so I became nervous about this.......:confused:

Intermittent fasting isn't really a "fad" to be fair though....in primeval times we did intermittent fasting because food was scarce and time between meals was quite large....so we would feed huge amounts then go hours or even days between meals....
 

Flex500

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I wouldn't call this fasting, all you are doing is "skipping breakfast" Look at how skipping breakfast works out for regular people.

Just eat 6 healthy meals per day every 2-3 hours and you will not need these fads or tricks to lose fat
The open is likely fasting 16 hours and eating 8. Also, big difference between the normal population not in the fitness world who skip breakfast and hose using it as s diet strategy. Most of them in normal population are like my dad. They skip breakfast because they are stressed out and don't care then eat fast food for lunch and dinner.

Much different than someone who prefers a smaller eating window and using it as a diet strategy. I do IF but I don't get into the "culty" stuff around it. It makes life easy, I feel better, and get bigger meals later in the day. That's about it. It doesn't allow you to beak the laws of thermodynamics or eat what you want. Many feel better on it and it certainly aids in insulin sensitivity.

I would argue the "eat 6 meals a day" is more of a fad diet though. I've never been able to wrap my head around why someone would need 6 meals a day.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Thanks FLEX :D

Since adding BCAA/extra Leucine back in I have noticed my recovery from training is increased....should I keep them in to promote extra recovery (sometimes it is the difference between getting +1 workouts more a week or having to take an off day to recuperate joint/muscle damage).

I have a peculiar type of training compared to most here....I lift weights but I also train a bodyweight strength:weight ratio sport so there are times when I am too sore to get in "power" type training (think plyometric training)....and that is a major bummer to me since it pushes my training schedule back +1 day.
 

cryptasm

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The open is likely fasting 16 hours and eating 8. Also, big difference between the normal population not in the fitness world who skip breakfast and hose using it as s diet strategy. Most of them in normal population are like my dad. They skip breakfast because they are stressed out and don't care then eat fast food for lunch and dinner.

Much different than someone who prefers a smaller eating window and using it as a diet strategy. I do IF but I don't get into the "culty" stuff around it. It makes life easy, I feel better, and get bigger meals later in the day. That's about it. It doesn't allow you to beak the laws of thermodynamics or eat what you want. Many feel better on it and it certainly aids in insulin sensitivity.

I would argue the "eat 6 meals a day" is more of a fad diet though. I've never been able to wrap my head around why someone would need 6 meals a day.

The 6 meal a day thing is NG for me. I eat breakfast and I need a nap shortly after, especially if its got any starches in it. Fruit I can do but starches in the am and I'm shot for the day. IF keeps my energy levels more stable.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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The open is likely fasting 16 hours and eating 8. Also, big difference between the normal population not in the fitness world who skip breakfast and hose using it as s diet strategy. Most of them in normal population are like my dad. They skip breakfast because they are stressed out and don't care then eat fast food for lunch and dinner.

Much different than someone who prefers a smaller eating window and using it as a diet strategy. I do IF but I don't get into the "culty" stuff around it. It makes life easy, I feel better, and get bigger meals later in the day. That's about it. It doesn't allow you to beak the laws of thermodynamics or eat what you want. Many feel better on it and it certainly aids in insulin sensitivity.

I would argue the "eat 6 meals a day" is more of a fad diet though. I've never been able to wrap my head around why someone would need 6 meals a day.
Exactly! I purposely skip breakfast and monitor blood glucose levels during this time and take in my water soluble vitamins and my supps (test+GH+BCAAs) and 2-3 days a week add fasted steady state cardio to this period. I make "good decisions" for lunch around 1pm, always, 8oz meat, salad, and low glycemic index bread....then I have another meal around 4pm and a final meal around 8pm, which is the largest meal (pasta, 3/4 pound meat, veggies, salad)....occassionally I eat a "cheat snack" if my gf made brownies and I have a protein shake after dinner, just because it tastes good and "why not"? :eek: They are all pretty large meals, around 800-1000 calories, high fat, high pro, high carb...I estimate I am getting around 2600 calories in an 8 hour period then basically 0 calories during the following 16 hour period (minus the 50 calories from BCAAs which is basically nothing).

In the morning I am focused, attentive, and diligent with my office work (I run my own construction company so there is always office stuff to do). I never feel tired or low energy like I was taught as a child I would feel because of skipping breakfast. :D
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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I also do pre/intra-workout shake but training is always PM so falls within the eating window and doesn't really effect anything whatsoever.

If you're curious pre/intra:
8oz fruit juice
10g BCAA
1-2 tablespoons glycerine
3g creatine
3g vitamin C
1 unit GH

post: thing of chocolate milk +50g whey protein isolate :D:eek:
 

juggy38

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No. if your doing IF, do IF. The magic comes from having rock bottom insulin levels. Not just caloric restrictions. Aminos will cause a slight increase in insulin

If your worried about muscle loss pin HGh or peptides.
 

goal245

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What are your stats? weight, height, bf?

If your goal is to be the leanest and most muscular you can be, 6 meals per day will give you the best results.

If you wake up and drink 50 grams of whey with some peanut butter you will recover better and this will not have any impact on your fasting blood sugar.

What is your fasting sugar that you are so worried?
 

goal245

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Also in my experience the worst thing you can do for insulin sensitivity is to drink carbs during workout. Exercise is probably the best insulin sensitizer there is but by supplying simple carbs during the workout you are missing out on that depletion and sensitization of the muscle.
 

juggy38

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What are your stats? weight, height, bf?

If your goal is to be the leanest and most muscular you can be, 6 meals per day will give you the best results.

If you wake up and drink 50 grams of whey with some peanut butter you will recover better and this will not have any impact on your fasting blood sugar.

What is your fasting sugar that you are so worried?
What??!

50g of whey will sure as FUCK have an impact on blood sugar. Quit posting dumb shit. Also it's not just BG levels it's INSULIN levels. Whey is highly insulinogenic
 

goal245

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What??!

50g of whey will sure as FUCK have an impact on blood sugar. Quit posting dumb shit. Also it's not just BG levels it's INSULIN levels. Whey is highly insulinogenic
I'm referring to fasting glucose levels, if this guy adds whey in the morning it will not have any impact on his fasting glucose long term, that is what he is worried about.

If anything adding whey will help with fat loss and insulin sensitivity, lots of studies supporting this:

A High-Whey-Protein Diet Reduces Body Weight Gain and Alters Insulin Sensitivity Relative to Red Meat in Wistar Rats

"Dietary WPC also reduced plasma insulin concentration by 40% (P < 0.05) and increased insulin sensitivity, compared to RM (P < 0.05). These findings support the conclusions that a high-protein diet reduces energy intake and adiposity and that whey protein is more effective than red meat in reducing body weight gain and increasing insulin sensitivity."
 

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