Jardiance; application for those trying to grow

[JaredLinez]

I don't hold a strong opinion on SGLT2 inhibitors, to me practically, they fall on a continuum of agents to manage (e.g., rhGH-induced) hyperglycemia that runs from Biguanides/BBR < SGLT-2 inhibitors < incretins < IGF-I & its analogues < insulin, that as you move along the continuum, you move from simple GDAs towards agents that in the middle augment insulin sensitivity on towards those that increase IGF-I bioavailability.

You'll notice some agents like sulfonylureas are absent. That's because I don't feel that there is a place for them.

Thanks for your input. Have you used it yourself?

With your knowledge in them, how applicable do you feel they are for someone trying to grow? Is there an effective way to negate the negatives?

 

[Type-IIx]

Thanks for your input. Have you used it yourself?

With your knowledge in them, how applicable do you feel they are for someone trying to grow? Is there an effective way to negate the negatives?

I saw some hypothetical claimed negatives but I don't see any support for them myself. It's an effective drug class to reduce blood glucose without necessitating increased insulin secretion.

 

[JaredLinez]

I saw some hypothetical claimed negatives but I don't see any support for them myself. It's an effective drug class to reduce blood glucose without necessitating increased insulin secretion.

Is the amount of carbs excreted directly related to the amount consumed? Or is there a “limit”?

 

[KingOfSushi]

I saw some hypothetical claimed negatives but I don't see any support for them myself. It's an effective drug class to reduce blood glucose without necessitating increased insulin secretion.

While you’re here, curious on your thoughts on Acarbose. From my research, I found “Acarbose inhibits carbohydrate digestion by competitively inhibiting the alpha glucosidase enzyme in the small intestine lumen.”

So from the sounds of it, it also will leave you digesting less carbs (having to eat more). It seems that besides the GLPs, almost every option for blood glucose management will come with that cost to a degree.

 

[JaredLinez]

@nothuman and @M@NU would be happy to hear your experiences with it as well, as far as growing with it or gym performance.

 

[nothuman]

@nothuman and @M@NU would be happy to hear your experiences with it as well, as far as growing with it or gym performance.

I think the effect is pretty minimal on gym performance and physique in trained bodybuilders like us. I don’t take it for those reasons though.

 

[JaredLinez]

I think the effect is pretty minimal on gym performance and physique in trained bodybuilders like us. I don’t take it for those reasons though.

Curious, what metrics have you checked since starting?

Has eGFR, EF% etc improved?

 

[nothuman]

Curious, what metrics have you checked since starting?

Has eGFR, EF% etc improved?

eGFR is definitely higher than it was before by about 10-15. I checked Cystatin C and it was 0.65, which is the very bottom of the range (I didn't check my Cystatin C before starting though so I don't have a "before").

My EF% was already 60-65% anyway so that's the same.

I didn't have problems with A1C or fasted insulin before so those are still nice and low.

The one thing I can think of is last time I went in for an echocardiogram, they seemed surprised that my diastolic function was better than it was 6 months before. Surprised enough that they re-checked the images. So maybe it's related or maybe it's just a different technician difference, I don't know.

The initial reason for me taking it was because it was the only drug that showed some improvement in diastolic function of the heart. To date, nothing else has been reliable. So because I had mild diastolic dysfunction, it was a no brainer to try this out the moment I uncovered that research. Then it turned out it had a bunch of other benefits too.

 

[JaredLinez]

eGFR is definitely higher than it was before by about 10-15. I checked Cystatin C and it was 0.65, which is the very bottom of the range (I didn't check my Cystatin C before starting though so I don't have a "before").

My EF% was already 60-65% anyway so that's the same.

I didn't have problems with A1C or fasted insulin before so those are still nice and low.

The one thing I can think of is last time I went in for an echocardiogram, they seemed surprised that my diastolic function was better than it was 6 months before. Surprised enough that they re-checked the images. So maybe it's related or maybe it's just a different technician difference, I don't know.

The initial reason for me taking it was because it was the only drug that showed some improvement in diastolic function of the heart. To date, nothing else has been reliable. So because I had mild diastolic dysfunction, it was a no brainer to try this out the moment I uncovered that research. Then it turned out it had a bunch of other benefits too.

Awesome info, thanks

 

[Type-IIx]

While you’re here, curious on your thoughts on Acarbose. From my research, I found “Acarbose inhibits carbohydrate digestion by competitively inhibiting the alpha glucosidase enzyme in the small intestine lumen.”

So from the sounds of it, it also will leave you digesting less carbs (having to eat more). It seems that besides the GLPs, almost every option for blood glucose management will come with that cost to a degree.

I've commented on it before. I don't really like it for us because it inhibits carbohydrate digestion. It's pretty impotent with respect to efficacy, and its tolerability is quite unfavorable given its propensity to cause terrible gas, among other GI distress symptoms.

 

[Type-IIx]

Is the amount of carbs excreted directly related to the amount consumed? Or is there a “limit”?

The amount of blood glucose excreted is not related to the amount of carbs ingested at all, it's related to the kinetics/saturation of the drug. Take less, take more.

 

[M@NU]

@nothuman and @M@NU would be happy to hear your experiences with it as well, as far as growing with it or gym performance.

for me, i am pretty sure ive felt a bit of performance increase.
but keep in mind my EF was @low 30s when ive asked my doc to introduce it.
The effects for me were therefore more drastic than they would be for you or @nothuman

i am also not sure how much Jardiance contributed, but my mitral insufficiency improved by a good margin some months after i started taking it

what ive felt: with dosages over 25mg you should not fast for longer periods after youve taken it. There is a chance you go hypo

 

[Doitagain]

(...) on towards those that increase IGF-I bioavailability.

I take for granted you're not referring to androgens and resistance training here, so this left me curious.

 

[Doitagain]

I've commented on it before. I don't really like it for us because it inhibits carbohydrate digestion.

Just as a reminder for those who regularly use Apple Cider Vinegar before meals: it does the same, to a lesser extent.

 

[aHarness]

Just as a reminder for those who regularly use Apple Cider Vinegar before meals: it does the same, to a lesser extent.

I’m not sure that’s accurate

Vinegar lacks antiglycemic action on enteral carbohydrate absorption in human subjects - PubMed

The antiglycemic effects of vinegar have been known for more than a century and have been demonstrated in animal as well as human studies. Although the exact mechanism of vinegar action is not known, several possibilities have been proposed including suppression of disaccharidase activity...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It can help glycemia but I don’t believe it blocks absorption

 

[luki7788]

Apple cider vinegar delays stomach emptying just like berberine, cinnamon or chromium so they are not necessarily good for bodybuilders who eat huge amounts of food - that's why I don't understand today's fashion for eating metformin or GDA like candy.

 

[Doitagain]

I’m not sure that’s accurate

Vinegar lacks antiglycemic action on enteral carbohydrate absorption in human subjects - PubMed

The antiglycemic effects of vinegar have been known for more than a century and have been demonstrated in animal as well as human studies. Although the exact mechanism of vinegar action is not known, several possibilities have been proposed including suppression of disaccharidase activity...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It can help glycemia but I don’t believe it blocks absorption

Apple cider vinegar has been shown to dose-dependently reduce α-amylase and α-glucosidase activities.
Most commercial vinegars work in the same way actually. This is the first study I've ever seen stating the opposite (there're literally dozens on this matter).

 

[nothuman]

for me, i am pretty sure ive felt a bit of performance increase.
but keep in mind my EF was @low 30s when ive asked my doc to introduce it.
The effects for me were therefore more drastic than they would be for you or @nothuman

i am also not sure how much Jardiance contributed, but my mitral insufficiency improved by a good margin some months after i started taking it

what ive felt: with dosages over 25mg you should not fast for longer periods after youve taken it. There is a chance you go hypo

That’s so awesome to hear your results. Seems consistent with the data!

One the leading lipidologists. Dr. Thomas Dayspring, said recently on Twitter that SGLT2’s like Jardiance are the closest thing to a miracle drug we have in cardiology.

 

[jaxino]

Apple cider vinegar delays stomach emptying just like berberine, cinnamon or chromium so they are not necessarily good for bodybuilders who eat huge amounts of food - that's why I don't understand today's fashion for eating metformin or GDA like candy.

A week ago I decided to drop all GDAs because my acid reflux wasn't going away, my digestion and hunger went completely to shit.
I felt so awful.

Guess what? No berberine no metformin no Jardiance and I started digesting everything like a champ, hunger went back to normal.

My blood glucose didn't change at all, since I kept my cardio in.

Atm the only pills I take are:
Vitamin K
Vitamin D
Multivitamin
80mg Telmisartan
0,5mg Adex mwf
1mg Melatonin slow release
Magnesium Bisglicinate

 

[dany23x]

A week ago I decided to drop all GDAs because my acid reflux wasn't going away, my digestion and hunger went completely to shit.
I felt so awful.

Guess what? No berberine no metformin no Jardiance and I started digesting everything like a champ, hunger went back to normal.

My blood glucose didn't change at all, since I kept my cardio in.

Atm the only pills I take are:
Vitamin K
Vitamin D
Multivitamin
80mg Telmisartan
0,5mg Adex mwf
1mg Melatonin slow release
Magnesium Bisglicinate

acid reflux is difficult to attribute to supplements (if you take them sensibly and in the right time); it is clear that if anyone takes 3G of NAC in one go it is very likely that they will get acid reflux, it is always the dose that makes the poison, most likely as I often happen to fix for some clients it is certainly:

-some vegetables (tomatoes is a classic, or even yogurt)
-supplements taken without logic and sense
-Oral AAS for those who are more sensitive
-spices such as paprika, cinnamon, black pepper
-prolonged use without the need for gastroprotectors, used senselessly they destroy your gastric walls and going back to the way they were before is very difficult