Jardiance; application for those trying to grow

[JaredLinez]

Figured we should start a new thread on this and not derail @slesh GHRP “log”

After reading @bbxtreme experience with it I think it would be beneficial to share some other experiences of it from those who are trying to actively grow and add tissue.

I recall @Type-IIx recommending it for blood sugar control, so perhaps he could weigh in as well if he has experience.

For those who have used, when on;

- was performance decreased?
- were you flatter?
- issues with dehydration?
- etc.

I think the benefits of it being heart and kidney protective are great, but if it’s going to be counterproductive to a degree that cannot be compensated with more carbs and electrolytes it’s likely not worth it.

 

[slesh]

It’s funny - I actually now liken this to my issues with AIs. As I have mentioned many times - I really overdid it with the AIs over the years because of the fear or gyno and other high E2 related sides but at the end of the day it was to my complete detriment. The irony is I was basically doing the same with my BG and Jardiance. I guess I was too concerned with high BG and truthfully we aren’t gen pop and having a fasted BG in the low 100s for a few months while trying to grow isn’t going to kill me…

 

[JaredLinez]

Left out I believe @KingOfSushi and @aHarness used as well

 

[aHarness]

It’s funny - I actually now liken this to my issues with AIs. As I have mentioned many times - I really overdid it with the AIs over the years because of the fear or gyno and other high E2 related sides but at the end of the day it was to my complete detriment. The irony is I was basically doing the same with my BG and Jardiance. I guess I was too concerned with high BG and truthfully we aren’t gen pop and having a fasted BG in the low 100s for a few months while trying to grow isn’t going to kill me…

Yeah, I am considering maybe switching it to only on my low carb rest days as a “cleanse” (Jardiance tea detox lol) to bring things back down perhaps before my days of pushing carbs again on training days…

 

[aHarness]

Something to consider to… are we not essentially doing the same to a degree with metformin and berberine? Do they not just essentially block carbohydrate absorption in the gut?

 

[bbxtreme]

Something to consider to… are we not essentially doing the same to a degree with metformin and berberine? Do they not just essentially block carbohydrate absorption in the gut?

To some degree they do in the liver. @slesh makes an excellent point. I have seen this trend on here of people trying to be concerned with BG levels when they don’t have any.

I have never had anything but perfect A1C and BG levels. For me trying Jardiance was for cardioprotective purposes, but I have that covered with Nebilivol and Telimisartan. So when it impacted my training and quality of life, it got pulled. This is common when taking something you don’t need.

My cardiologist warned me of this when we started it and agreed if it was an issue that we would pull it as I’m not a patient in heart failure, which is what it is indicated for at 10mg clinically.

Remember we should all strive to be on as few medications as possible. Diet and lifestyle first, supplements second, and medications last after we have exhausted the first two. But we certainly shouldn’t be using medications we don’t need IMO.

The exception as I stated in the other thread is @nothuman - he is taking for longevity purposes which Jardiance is very beneficial for these reasons.

 

[KingOfSushi]

From @Type-IIx

“SGLT-2 inhibitors like Jardiance (empagliflozin) are indeed great GDAs.

Jardiance's mechanism to ameliorate hyperglycemia is more direct than Metformin's or others in its class like Berberine. The mechanism by which Jardiance works is that, where glucose from the blood is filtered for excretion and reabsorbed in the glomerulus such that (< 1% of) glucose is excreted in the urine, this reabsorption is mediated by the sodium-dependent glucose cotransporter (SGLT), mainly the type 2 which is responsible for 90% of the reabsorbed glucose. Jardiance is a small inhibitor of the SGLT2 and its activity increases glucose excretion, reducing hyperglycemia without the requirement of elevated insulin secretion.”

Would <1% if glucose excretion in the urine even be a notable difference when carbs are 700, 800, 900+ plus anyways? Unless I’m misinterpreting

 

[JaredLinez]

So when it impacted my training and quality of life, it got pulled.

What negative impacts did you notice? Beyond of course you had what sounds like a rough cramping session on your leg day unfortunately

 

[bbxtreme]

What negative impacts did you notice? Beyond of course you had what sounds like a rough cramping session on your leg day unfortunately

Maybe if I type it here it’ll be the last time I have to say it.

1. Decrease in muscle fullness on all workout days. I use some amount of insulin on all workout days so not ideal.

2. Harder to find or keep the pump during training session.

3. Constant urination. But urine that smelled from the glucose. This could easily lead to some sort of infection etc as indicated. I increased water and tried all routes, but just led to more urine output.

4. Severe seizing of the muscle group being worked (not cramping) post workout which felt like an electrolyte/sodium imbalance. I use electrolytes and sea salt on every meal so couldn’t find balance.

I’ll let others share their experience from here. If any. But I cut it out and all the above has gone away. Again, if you’re looking for longevity and not pushing carbs and insulin, it’s great. Just see it being counter productive for those of us who are.

 

[JaredLinez]

Maybe if I type it here it’ll be the last time I have to say it.

1. Decrease in muscle fullness on all workout days. I use some amount of insulin on all workout days so not ideal.

2. Harder to find or keep the pump during training session.

3. Constant urination. But urine that smelled from the glucose. This could easily lead to some sort of infection etc as indicated. I increased water and tried all routes, but just led to more urine output.

4. Severe seizing of the muscle group being worked (not cramping) post workout which felt like an electrolyte/sodium imbalance. I use electrolytes and sea salt on every meal so couldn’t find balance.

I’ll let others share their experience from here. If any. But I cut it out and all the above has gone away. Again, if you’re looking for longevity and not pushing carbs and insulin, it’s great. Just see it being counter productive for those of us who are.

Thanks for sharing man. Definitely sounds like it created some degree of electrolyte imbalance in you. Interesting it was so strong even at a low dose too.

 

[bbxtreme]

Thanks for sharing man. Definitely sounds like it created some degree of electrolyte imbalance in you. Interesting it was so strong even at a low dose too.

To be fair to others taking it, my body is a super responder to most prescription meds. I’ve confirmed this on genetic testing. It’s also because I live and stay so healthy that even small amounts of meds make a huge change in my body.

Example- if I take 5mg of Nebilivol my RHR drops to 50’s and can feel like I’m going to pass out when getting up at times. When I first went on 2.5mg we had to cut the tiny tablet in half.

Now only if my body responded to test the same way that would be wonderful. LOL but remember every individual is different.

 

[JaredLinez]

if I take 5mg of Nebilivol my RHR drops to 50’s and can feel like I’m going to pass out when getting up at times.

Holy shit

 

[KingOfSushi]

I increased water and tried all routes, but just led to more urine output.

I found while on it I actually didn’t have to increase my water, but I did have to increase my sodium.

 

[cage99]

To be fair to others taking it, my body is a super responder to most prescription meds. I’ve confirmed this on genetic testing. It’s also because I live and stay so healthy that even small amounts of meds make a huge change in my body.

What testing are you referring to here regarding being a super responder? Are you referring to something along the lines of a lean mass hyperresponder?

Cage

 

[bbxtreme]

What testing are you referring to here regarding being a super responder? Are you referring to something along the lines of a lean mass hyperresponder?

Cage

Genetic testing of how I metabolize pharma drugs.

Nothing to do with adding lean mass. I’m the opposite in that regard… I have to fight and eat for every pound of that.

 

[cage99]

Genetic testing of how I metabolize pharma drugs.

Nothing to do with adding lean mass. I’m the opposite in that regard… I have to fight and eat for every pound of that.

Pharmacogenetic testing?

Cage

 

[bbxtreme]

Pharmacogenetic testing?

Cage

Correct. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m a firm believer that our genes do not define us. But I do think it can be a good confirmation or investigative tool.

Here is who I use and reccomend for someone truly looking to do a deep dive:

Sequencing | Test 100% Of Your Genes | DNA Kits + Reports

Everything you need to transform your DNA into clear solutions for better health. Whole genome sequencing (WGS) kits + DNA Reports + Privacy Forever protection.

sequencing.com

 

[whacked]

Are you referring to something along the lines of a lean mass hyperresponder?

Cage

Just saw a Dave Feldman clip on this along with his 100-patient study with his Cardiologist partner.

Fascinating phenotype (healthy people with significantly high LDL, w zero ASCVD risk or plaquing / Calcium scores). Denunks so much of what we have been fed about LDL. I can see Big Pharma taking these guys out a la JFK style.

Sorry OP and everyone for the quick derail….

Carry on.

 

[whacked]

I’m a firm believer that our genes do not define us. But I do think it can be a good confirmation or investigative tool.

100% agree

Great tool to obtain your genetic profile and then to learn what pathologies you are predisposed to / what your SNIPs (polymorphisms) are and apply epigenetic modifications / lifestyle and environmental changes to minimize the chance to have those unfavorable “problematic” alleles/variants to become fully expressed.

 

[Type-IIx]

Figured we should start a new thread on this and not derail @slesh GHRP “log”

After reading @bbxtreme experience with it I think it would be beneficial to share some other experiences of it from those who are trying to actively grow and add tissue.

I recall @Type-IIx recommending it for blood sugar control, so perhaps he could weigh in as well if he has experience.

For those who have used, when on;

- was performance decreased?
- were you flatter?
- issues with dehydration?
- etc.

I think the benefits of it being heart and kidney protective are great, but if it’s going to be counterproductive to a degree that cannot be compensated with more carbs and electrolytes it’s likely not worth it.

I don't hold a strong opinion on SGLT2 inhibitors, to me practically, they fall on a continuum of agents to manage (e.g., rhGH-induced) hyperglycemia that runs from Biguanides/BBR < SGLT-2 inhibitors < incretins < IGF-I & its analogues < insulin, that as you move along the continuum, you move from simple GDAs towards agents that in the middle augment insulin sensitivity on towards those that increase IGF-I bioavailability.

You'll notice some agents like sulfonylureas are absent. That's because I don't feel that there is a place for them.