Just to see if you can

alfresco · Nov 29, 2009

I think most people who are young and "use" have no
idea how hard it is to stop. The naiveté just kills me.
Many think it does not apply to them . . . they are
different. From w8tlifterty's story over in the Member's
Photos section, the other threads, and all the others
that have chimed in, demonstrates how difficult it really
is. Clearly it's not easy. And knowing that up-front does
not make it any easier.

All of which reminds me of something I posted here a
while ago . . . In my opinion, and I am far from an expert
in these matters, there is nothing to compare with being
"on", nothing natural that you can take that even comes
close. That is why many bodybuilders will be on a small
dose, always, sooner rather than later.

It is also my opinion that once you have experienced the
size and strength gains that are only possible through the
use of AAS, your life, both mentally and physically, will
never be the same.

You will never be stronger, bigger, or as muscular. Your
pumps will never be as good nor your vascularity and
your ability to hold muscular size when dieting, as you
were when you were "on".

And for many people who have an unrealistic, or unhealthy,
idealized image of themselves; the absence of these effects
can be the worst side effect they will have as a function of
using AAS.

There is no going back. This is your loss of innocence.

Now, a somewhat personal and I think related story . . .

My wife and I are fortunate to live in the wine country
in Northern California. Living here unavoidable exposes
us to lots of fine wine (my in-laws own a one of those
boutique wineries here which guarantees us an almost
unlimited supply) and some of the finest dining exper-
iences in the world.

Every year for Lent my wife and I give up something we
like. I'm not a big wine drinker anymore though at one
point in time I used to be, so for me it was wine, for her
it's chocolate. It's no big deal really, we don't do it for
religious purposes, we do it, quit something, just to see
if we can.

This probably sounds weird or perhaps even ridiculous,
but giving up something now and again, something you
really enjoy and is part of your lifestyle, I think you learn
a bit about yourself.

Clearly you don't want to quit brushing your teeth,
exercising, educating yourself, being nice to people,
etc . . . just something nonessential but meaningful to
you in some way.

So . . . how many people do you know give up AAS, not
because they have to or should, but just to see if they can?
Like I said before, this is a whole 'nother ball game.

Just something I have been thinking about as we enter the
holiday season of excesses.

kscowboy · Nov 29, 2009

Very good post bro. I am catholic and we give up something every lent. I have a friend of mine and his family is not catholic but every lent they do the same, they give something up just to test their will power. It is interesting to see how many people do this but end up weakening and giving in on a cheat day. Then its broken and you have failed. I think it is VERY healthy to do this once and a while not just once a year. But you have to give up something that is tough on you. If you dont drink beer you cant give up beer. You need to give up something that will test you. Good thread bro!!

rAJJIN · Nov 29, 2009

A Lot of good points in there about
how you feel on and off of anabolic steroids.

Ive had a lot of buddys in my area that were also at one time or another training partners. Most were friends all the way back from High school.
The Ones that did Juice but give it up for whatever reason dont even bother to lift weights anymore. Not a single one of them. They just go back to being a regular guy and pick up a new hobby. Now and then they get the urge to come back but even when they do it doesnt last long.

PHIL HERNON · Nov 29, 2009

Good point

alfresco said:
I think most people who are young and "use" have no
idea how hard it is to stop. The naiveté just kills me.
Many think it does not apply to them . . . they are
different. From w8tlifterty's story over in the Member's
Photos section, the other threads, and all the others
that have chimed in, demonstrates how difficult it really
is. Clearly it's not easy. And knowing that up-front does
not make it any easier.

All of which reminds me of something I posted here a
while ago . . . In my opinion, and I am far from an expert
in these matters, there is nothing to compare with being
"on", nothing natural that you can take that even comes
close. That is why many bodybuilders will be on a small
dose, always, sooner rather than later.

It is also my opinion that once you have experienced the
size and strength gains that are only possible through the
use of AAS, your life, both mentally and physically, will
never be the same.

You will never be stronger, bigger, or as muscular. Your
pumps will never be as good nor your vascularity and
your ability to hold muscular size when dieting, as you
were when you were "on".

And for many people who have an unrealistic, or unhealthy,
idealized image of themselves; the absence of these effects
can be the worst side effect they will have as a function of
using AAS.

There is no going back. This is your loss of innocence.

Now, a somewhat personal and I think related story . . .

My wife and I are fortunate to live in the wine country
in Northern California. Living here unavoidable exposes
us to lots of fine wine (my in-laws own a one of those
boutique wineries here which guarantees us an almost
unlimited supply) and some of the finest dining exper-
iences in the world.

Every year for Lent my wife and I give up something we
like. I'm not a big wine drinker anymore though at one
point in time I used to be, so for me it was wine, for her
it's chocolate. It's no big deal really, we don't do it for
religious purposes, we do it, quit something, just to see
if we can.

This probably sounds weird or perhaps even ridiculous,
but giving up something now and again, something you
really enjoy and is part of your lifestyle, I think you learn
a bit about yourself.

Clearly you don't want to quit brushing your teeth,
exercising, educating yourself, being nice to people,
etc . . . just something nonessential but meaningful to
you in some way.

So . . . how many people do you know give up AAS, not
because they have to or should, but just to see if they can?
Like I said before, this is a whole 'nother ball game.

Just something I have been thinking about as we enter the
holiday season of excesses.

Here is the problem.......we have guys on here that applaud you when you get "HUGE"............man you look GREAT!! This implies that when we lose weight or "down size" that we look.........bad. Muscle dysmorphia is a severe problem with bodybuilders.....the whole self worth is predicated with how much muscle they can gain/hold..........it is sad and TYs thread is a good example. We have guys going "natural" but still want to show how "manly" or attractive they still are and posting pics to constantly keep hearing they they are still "ok"......still accepted.........still worth something without the extra muscle......... to keep their self esteem high....it is really sad. We are all worth a LOT.......muscle or no muscle.

Lee Salado · Nov 29, 2009

PHIL HERNON said:
Here is the problem.......we have guys on here that applaud you when you get "HUGE"............man you look GREAT!! This implies that when we lose weight or "down size" that we look.........bad. Muscle dysmorphia is a severe problem with bodybuilders.....the whole self worth is predicated with how much muscle they can gain/hold..........it is sad and TYs thread is a good example. We have guys going "natural" but still want to show how "manly" or attractive they still are and posting pics to constantly keep hearing they they are still "ok"......still accepted.........still worth something without the extra muscle......... to keep their self esteem high....it is really sad. We are all worth a LOT.......muscle or no muscle.

Excellent post.

JETHRO TULL · Nov 29, 2009

Excellent post, Alfresco.

What you are saying is the truth. I have this "friend" who would go on stuff twice a year for 6 weeks at a time. That was fine for him and he did do it for religious reasons. He didn't want to destroy the body God gave him. The doses he used were minimal and I mean MINIMAL. Now 20 years later, the absolute pain and all around crappy feeling he gets at over 40, when the test finally leaves the body? IT IS MISERABLE.

He ran out last year for 11 or 12 weeks and all he did was complain. His joints hurt, his muscles hurt if he trained hard, it took longer to recover, etc. The difference from 1cc a week of test enanthate to none ....well...tremendous difference.

He will, as you say, take that small amount for life. I doubt he wants to face that again. Something to think about.

Ehren · Nov 29, 2009

AAS is unlike any other drug. No other addict stays on for the sake of what others think. They stay on their heroin or whatever DESPITE what others think.

I think this decision comes with age and self respect. And we should keep in mind that this is a different form of "addiction", which IMO catches those who are most prone to criticism. If you wanna stay on, stay on, or get off. Whatever. But do it because YOU want to.

To be driven by other's expectations of you is bullshit, unless they pay you for being as they wish you to be. (models/pros). If you feel like a "nobody" without muscles, its time to look at that problem.

At some point we gotta grow the hell up and understand that what we think of ourselves is more important than what anyone else thinks! It sounds cliche, but self respect is the foundation of every good thing I have done or hope to achieve.

Ive been there, after spending many years in a sport that I had big hopes for, and that my life revolved around. Sidelined by injuries, I had NO idea who I was without it. I had to move on. When that happens, its make or break time.

Now, whatever I do in life or in the Gym is MINE and mine alone. Live for yourselves, learn from the failures and drink in the successes as yours. If not muscle, be excessively successful at something else.

w8tlifterty · Nov 29, 2009

PHIL HERNON said:
Here is the problem.......we have guys on here that applaud you when you get "HUGE"............man you look GREAT!! This implies that when we lose weight or "down size" that we look.........bad. Muscle dysmorphia is a severe problem with bodybuilders.....the whole self worth is predicated with how much muscle they can gain/hold..........it is sad and TYs thread is a good example. We have guys going "natural" but still want to show how "manly" or attractive they still are and posting pics to constantly keep hearing they they are still "ok"......still accepted.........still worth something without the extra muscle......... to keep their self esteem high....it is really sad. We are all worth a LOT.......muscle or no muscle.

I certainly wasn't looking for acceptance or to be told i still look manly. Phil you took my thread in the wrong direction. I hardly ever post pics... AS I HAVE said, i posted to help other w/ their desicion. That is it.... Some have expressed interest in coming off to me... just posted my experiance .... Now, you come to another thread and carry it on...
Every person that posted in the pics thread seemed to have good things to say... I understand where you are coming from, but you are just way off base on this one! I would have no problem admitting it if you were on track, but you're not.
AND, for the record. In the thick of it, about 8 months ago i did go talk to a "shrink". I went for 3 months. Her exact words were, " Stop wasting your money on these sessions, You have a better hold on life than most men 20 years your elder." No muscle dysmorphia, no complexes...I did know this lady beforehand but i dont think she would say this to me if she truly felt i needed to be talking with someone!

Alfresco said this, "This probably sounds weird or perhaps even ridiculous,
but giving up something now and again, something you
really enjoy and is part of your lifestyle, I think you learn
a bit about yourself."

This is great advice, I learned more about myself in the last year and a half than the previous 5 years. I gave it all up, and along the way learned some valuable lessons.

jalsmiley · Nov 29, 2009

PHIL HERNON said:
Here is the problem.......we have guys on here that applaud you when you get "HUGE"............man you look GREAT!! This implies that when we lose weight or "down size" that we look.........bad. Muscle dysmorphia is a severe problem with bodybuilders.....the whole self worth is predicated with how much muscle they can gain/hold..........it is sad and TYs thread is a good example. We have guys going "natural" but still want to show how "manly" or attractive they still are and posting pics to constantly keep hearing they they are still "ok"......still accepted.........still worth something without the extra muscle......... to keep their self esteem high....it is really sad. We are all worth a LOT.......muscle or no muscle.

well, this is a bodybuilding board, if it were baseball, should we be telling someone who struck out that they did good. - yeah i know what you are saying and yes i am just bustin chops a little

PHIL HERNON · Nov 29, 2009

Ty

w8tlifterty said:
I certainly wasn't looking for acceptance or to be told i still look manly. Phil you took my thread in the wrong direction. I hardly ever post pics... AS I HAVE said, i posted to help other w/ their desicion. That is it.... Some have expressed interest in coming off to me... just posted my experiance .... Now, you come to another thread and carry it on...
Every person that posted in the pics thread seemed to have good things to say... I understand where you are coming from, but you are just way off base on this one! I would have no problem admitting it if you were on track, but you're not.
AND, for the record. In the thick of it, about 8 months ago i did go talk to a "shrink". I went for 3 months. Her exact words were, " Stop wasting your money on these sessions, You have a better hold on life than most men 20 years your elder." No muscle dysmorphia, no complexes...I did know this lady beforehand but i dont think she would say this to me if she truly felt i needed to be talking with someone!

Alfresco said this, "This probably sounds weird or perhaps even ridiculous,
but giving up something now and again, something you
really enjoy and is part of your lifestyle, I think you learn
a bit about yourself."

This is great advice, I learned more about myself in the last year and a half than the previous 5 years. I gave it all up, and along the way learned some valuable lessons.

Ty, you want the truth about your pics? You look like a guy in jail that maybe works out........that is natural.......but stays in shape.........CAN YOU HANDLE THAT?? I really dont think you can......you are not huge, not even big.....is that ok with you? I seriously wonder if it is......is it? Did you think you were huge? Did you think you were big? Does me telling you that you are medium size offend you? If it does, please explain why.......this is my point.....that is the direction I was taking that thread.......in your opinion it was the wrong direction, but it is reality. Maybe reality is tough to swallow? I know at times it is for me and everyone else......

w8tlifterty · Nov 30, 2009

PHIL HERNON said:
Ty, you want the truth about your pics? You look like a guy in jail that maybe works out........that is natural.......but stays in shape.........CAN YOU HANDLE THAT?? I really dont think you can......you are not huge, not even big.....is that ok with you? I seriously wonder if it is......is it? Did you think you were huge? Did you think you were big? Does me telling you that you are medium size offend you? If it does, please explain why.......this is my point.....that is the direction I was taking that thread.......in your opinion it was the wrong direction, but it is reality. Maybe reality is tough to swallow? I know at times it is for me and everyone else......

How many times have i said I know that... i wasnt looking for praise, ONLY trying to help for the tenth time. Others seem to get that. Is there one post from me not being humble... I am under no illusions. Medium size is fine with me. Completely, you throw terms like muscle dysmorphia around like you know what your talking about,,,, In reality, you've lost me. I have no problems with where i'm at... LETS DROP THIS SHIT! You have my cell if you feel the need to carry this on... Small, medium, large.... doesnt matter.. I have a successful business, beautiful fiance, I work very hard for the things i have. My life is quite GOOD... I was able to get off something i was addicted to, and have done fairly well. ??? You lost me man... How you manage to take things and twist them is beyond me.

PHIL HERNON · Nov 30, 2009

Ty

w8tlifterty said:
How many times have i said I know that... i wasnt looking for praise, ONLY trying to help for the tenth time. Others seem to get that. Is there one post from me not being humble... I am under no illusions. Medium size is fine with me. Completely, you throw terms like muscle dysmorphia around like you know what your talking about,,,, In reality, you've lost me. I have no problems with where i'm at... LETS DROP THIS SHIT! You have my cell if you feel the need to carry this on... Small, medium, large.... doesnt matter.. I have a successful business, beautiful fiance, I work very hard for the things i have. My life is quite GOOD... I was able to get off something i was addicted to, and have done fairly well. ??? You lost me man... How you manage to take things and twist them is beyond me.

Who are you trying to help? Why do you keep mentioning others? Others? Others? You are constanty seeking approval and trying to prove how successful you have become....you do not understand what I am saying......I do agree with that. Now, telling me I twist things.....take things and twist things......that is nothing more than you lashing out. There is nothing to drop....the only thing being droped is me trying to help you understand all of this because I have been through it. I honestly feel like you have some issues I cant understand here..............you act like steroids were an addiction.....it is your insecurities that are the issue..........you dont get it do you. Steroids are not evil, they are not the problem.......you are the problem.....get help man, we can all use it, no matter how successfull we think we are.

jawbreakerkid · Nov 30, 2009

PHIL HERNON said:
Who are you trying to help? Why do you keep mentioning others? Others? Others? You are constanty seeking approval and trying to prove how successful you have become....you do not understand what I am saying......I do agree with that. Now, telling me I twist things.....take things and twist things......that is nothing more than you lashing out. There is nothing to drop....the only thing being droped is me trying to help you understand all of this because I have been through it. I honestly feel like you have some issues I cant understand here..............you act like steroids were an addiction.....it is your insecurities that are the issue..........you dont get it do you. Steroids are not evil, they are not the problem.......you are the problem.....get help man, we can all use it, no matter how successfull we think we are.

I think this quote sums up a large portion of the AAS/bodybuilding community. An incredibly insecure subculture of people.

hawkmoon · Nov 30, 2009

Thanks for the post alfresco.

I had stepped away from AAS for more than 15 years, 20 since I was serious about them and competing.
I don't think I can drop the hrt level dosages at this point though - my natural levels are just too low, but I understand what you are saying.

I've been able to give up things and in some cases never indulge at all through self-discipline. To this day, at 40 years old, I have never had a single drink, not even a beer. Why? Because I choose so, and I know that I can do that with most anything...

It helped that during my formative years I was heavily involved in the straight-edge hardcore punk scene in Boston. No drugs, no drinking, and no girls (in the casual sex sense). Basically not allowing anything into your life that could become an obsession and ruin your objective sense.

This is why many of my friends back in the day used to call me "The Priest", even though I am a raging atheist.

w8tlifterty · Nov 30, 2009

PHIL HERNON said:
Who are you trying to help? Why do you keep mentioning others? Others? Others? You are constanty seeking approval and trying to prove how successful you have become....you do not understand what I am saying......I do agree with that. Now, telling me I twist things.....take things and twist things......that is nothing more than you lashing out. There is nothing to drop....the only thing being droped is me trying to help you understand all of this because I have been through it. I honestly feel like you have some issues I cant understand here..............you act like steroids were an addiction.....it is your insecurities that are the issue..........you dont get it do you. Steroids are not evil, they are not the problem.......you are the problem.....get help man, we can all use it, no matter how successfull we think we are.

Steroids are not the problem. Understood. Insecurities are! understood. I never said i was addicted to steroids, I said "addicted to something" or 'addicted to the lifestyle' meaning the thoughts about losing size, looks, etc... I faced those demons head on.... have i beat them, Na, but i'm getting closer.
I do now understand what you are getting at however... but i was never seeking approval.

JETHRO TULL · Nov 30, 2009

Excellent post, Hawk.

hawkmoon said:
Thanks for the post alfresco.

I had stepped away from AAS for more than 15 years, 20 since I was serious about them and competing.
I don't think I can drop the hrt level dosages at this point though - my natural levels are just too low, but I understand what you are saying.

I've been able to give up things and in some cases never indulge at all through self-discipline. To this day, at 40 years old, I have never had a single drink, not even a beer. Why? Because I choose so, and I know that I can do that with most anything...

It helped that during my formative years I was heavily involved in the straight-edge hardcore punk scene in Boston. No drugs, no drinking, and no girls (in the casual sex sense). Basically not allowing anything into your life that could become an obsession and ruin your objective sense.

This is why many of my friends back in the day used to call me "The Priest", even though I am a raging atheist.