Justin Compton reacts to 14g cycle

[bbxtreme]

I laugh because I know many who have abused GH and steroids heavily for decades and it's really hard for me to find anyone among them who would be in worse health today than the average Joe at his age.

besides - we have to pay the price for being superhuman, nothing is free

I’ve had these discussions over and over with my team of cardiologist- sports cardiologist and interventional cardiologist who has background in sports cardiology prior and is a former power lifter so takes a personal interest.

Dr. Kim at Emory works with the elite pro teams and athletes so managing cases with PEDs is a staple of his job and the norm.

They both strongly feel that athletes, especially athletes who lift heavy such as bodybuilders will naturally have some level of athletes heart. It’s almost alarming to them to see one who doesn’t as they worry of low EF rates in those cases.

The heart is a muscle and in a performing athlete with muscle it is almost second nature or abnormal to not have athletes heart at that level. They believe there’s no risk or danger in having it as long as BP and HR are in range as you said. They believe breathing and BP during lifts play a huge factor in the extent of this as well as most are aware or thinking to manage their BP during exercise which strains the heart at more extreme level.

Of course there are other factors to consider such as monitoring homocysteine and HSCRP. Screening for calcium build up, monitoring EF% annually and if breathing is an issue doing a CPET test to see how the heart and lungs are functioning together under exercise.

The one thing we all agree on is that as a bodybuilder or any top athlete using PED’s should get annual heart screening- for me that’s an echo and CPET. This is in addition to 4-8 week monitoring of HSCRP and homocysteine on bloodwork and lipids of course.

I say all of this in reference to someone healthy with no previous damage or heart conditions. I know you have a history so to me that would change all factors and know my cardiologist would agree as once an athlete has damage they don’t suggest PED’s as any part of managing the case. Dr. Kim has told me of cases he has, but at that point he said it becomes a warning of advising them not to do it then treating with beta blockers and medications under strict monitoring and doing MRI’s to asses and monitor deeper.

 

[thethinker48]

I laugh because I know many who have abused GH and steroids heavily for decades and it's really hard for me to find anyone among them who would be in worse health today than the average Joe at his age.

besides - we have to pay the price for being superhuman, nothing is free

there's some cognitive bias here

The only ones surviving abusing PEDs are those genetically resistant to tolerating that + taking precautions

I think there are plenty of people who passed that might have lived long lives as average Joes if extreme PED use wasn't involved, but again you can only try to mitigate risk through bloodwork, and scans, and then accept the risk that comes from being built like the hulk

There's no right or wrong here, everyone makes their own decisions and judgment is a person's own ego reflecting on the world. But it's good to call a spade a spade

 

[danieltx]

I laugh because I know many who have abused GH and steroids heavily for decades and it's really hard for me to find anyone among them who would be in worse health today than the average Joe at his age.

besides - we have to pay the price for being superhuman, nothing is free

there's some cognitive bias here

The only ones surviving abusing PEDs are those genetically resistant to tolerating that + taking precautions

I think there are plenty of people who passed that might have lived long lives as average Joes if extreme PED use wasn't involved, but again you can only try to mitigate risk through bloodwork, and scans, and then accept the risk that comes from being built like the hulk

There's no right or wrong here, everyone makes their own decisions and judgment is a person's own ego reflecting on the world. But it's good to call a spade a spade

I'll throw in one anecdotal report.

When @concreteguy had his abs burst a few years ago he was rushed in for emergency surgery and various scans. He had pushed his doses even as a guy in his 40s and 50s - multiple grams of AAS, GH, Log and Lantus. They found his heart, liver, kidneys - everything they looked at - to be in perfect condition.

Is that due to good tolerance? That's plausible. Is it due to these compound not being as harsh as they've been made out to be? That's equally as plausible.

 

[thethinker48]

I'll throw in one anecdotal report.

When @concreteguy had his abs burst a few years ago he was rushed in for emergency surgery and various scans. He had pushed his doses even as a guy in his 40s and 50s - multiple grams of AAS, GH, Log and Lantus. They found his heart, liver, kidneys - everything they looked at - to be in perfect condition.

Is that due to good tolerance? That's plausible. Is it due to these compound not being as harsh as they've been made out to be? That's equally as plausible.

Concreter drank plenty, ate plenty of junk and looked like a superhero at his age while working an insanely hard physical job while street fighting on the weekend

I think it's fair to say he was built different lol

If you look at longevity, then the thing that takes out majority of people is cardio/neurovascular disease, cancer and neurodegeneration. Now people who live into their 90s/100s are usually those that are least susceptible to the above. And the ones that die younger tend to be more susceptible to the above.

Steroids will worsen endothelial function, drive up atherogenic particles, and increase systemic inflammation, all of which will increase CAD/stroke risk, and to some degree effect neurodegeneration. So the ones who are susceptible to above are already in a worse state taking steroids. And the ones who aren't, might not be that much worse off.

Evolution does not select for longevity, just to ensure babies are made. So a regular person's CAD risk isn't usually great.

Now it's up to the individual to determine what their own risk tolerance is and what their genetics are like. And I have no judgment on anyone's decisions, I still have to pay my property tax regardless of what anyone takes

P.S- Your own experience is a great example of genetics. You still have good hair, aren't crippled from training heavy, and have decent bloods on respectable doses of gear, and can eat a village worth of food while maintaining decent metabolic health. Luki is the same way gear tolerance wise. But that isn't the norm imo

Meanwhile LATs and I might be standing in the "feel like shit on any dosage" booth at the Olympia expo

 

[danieltx]

Concreter drank plenty, ate plenty of junk and looked like a superhero at his age while working an insanely hard physical job while street fighting on the weekend

I think it's fair to say he was built different lol

If you look at longevity, then the thing that takes out majority of people is cardio/neurovascular disease, cancer and neurodegeneration. Now people who live into their 90s/100s are usually those that are least susceptible to the above. And the ones that die younger tend to be more susceptible to the above.

Steroids will worsen endothelial function, drive up atherogenic particles, and increase systemic inflammation, all of which will increase CAD/stroke risk, and to some degree effect neurodegeneration. So the ones who are susceptible to above are already in a worse state taking steroids. And the ones who aren't, might not be that much worse off.

Evolution does not select for longevity, just to ensure babies are made. So a regular person's CAD risk isn't usually great.

Now it's up to the individual to determine what their own risk tolerance is and what their genetics are like. And I have no judgment on anyone's decisions, I still have to pay my property tax regardless of what anyone takes

P.S- Your own experience is a great example of genetics. You still have good hair, aren't crippled from training heavy, and have decent bloods on respectable doses of gear, and can eat a village worth of food while maintaining decent metabolic health. Luki is the same way gear tolerance wise. But that isn't the norm imo

Meanwhile LATs and I might be standing in the "feel like shit on any dosage" booth at the Olympia expo

All fair points and I appreciate you recognizing my genetics.

But I was referring to @concreteguy and not @concreter. I don't believe @concreteguy drank, used recreationals, ate lots of junk food, etc. @concreter certainly did.

 

[nothuman]

With years of having read echocardiograms, Justin Harris is very strong in his belief that if bodybuilders would control their blood pressure they'd avoid 90% of the health issues we hear about.

I highly agree. If I knew about this in my 20s, my heart would be smaller right now.

 

[nothuman]

Concreter drank plenty, ate plenty of junk and looked like a superhero at his age while working an insanely hard physical job while street fighting on the weekend

I think it's fair to say he was built different lol

If you look at longevity, then the thing that takes out majority of people is cardio/neurovascular disease, cancer and neurodegeneration. Now people who live into their 90s/100s are usually those that are least susceptible to the above. And the ones that die younger tend to be more susceptible to the above.

Steroids will worsen endothelial function, drive up atherogenic particles, and increase systemic inflammation, all of which will increase CAD/stroke risk, and to some degree effect neurodegeneration. So the ones who are susceptible to above are already in a worse state taking steroids. And the ones who aren't, might not be that much worse off.

Evolution does not select for longevity, just to ensure babies are made. So a regular person's CAD risk isn't usually great.

Now it's up to the individual to determine what their own risk tolerance is and what their genetics are like. And I have no judgment on anyone's decisions, I still have to pay my property tax regardless of what anyone takes

P.S- Your own experience is a great example of genetics. You still have good hair, aren't crippled from training heavy, and have decent bloods on respectable doses of gear, and can eat a village worth of food while maintaining decent metabolic health. Luki is the same way gear tolerance wise. But that isn't the norm imo

Meanwhile LATs and I might be standing in the "feel like shit on any dosage" booth at the Olympia expo

Good post but you’re confusing ConcreteGuy with Concreter, two different people.

Speaking of concreter, does anyone know what ever happened to him? He just kind of vanished one day. I really hope he’s alive but I wouldnt bet on it.

 

[nothuman]

there's some cognitive bias here

The only ones surviving abusing PEDs are those genetically resistant to tolerating that + taking precautions

I think there are plenty of people who passed that might have lived long lives as average Joes if extreme PED use wasn't involved, but again you can only try to mitigate risk through bloodwork, and scans, and then accept the risk that comes from being built like the hulk

There's no right or wrong here, everyone makes their own decisions and judgment is a person's own ego reflecting on the world. But it's good to call a spade a spade

Agreed. The idea what we shouldn’t worry about using high dose HGH and steroids together because a lot of other guys are fine is wishful thinking.

In my case, I did and it harmed me, but I also had high blood pressure. If hypothetically, I had controlled my blood pressure while doing that, would I still have done some damage, but less damage? Or would I have no no damage at all? Impossible for me to say.

 

[thethinker48]

All fair points and I appreciate you recognizing my genetics.

But I was referring to @concreteguy and not @concreter. I don't believe @concreteguy drank, used recreationals, ate lots of junk food, etc. @concreter certainly did.

Ah my bad! I read it as concreter

imo having good organs in your 60s after decades of high doses has much to do genetics, but we will never know exact percentages when anything is multifactorial

Good discussion nonetheless

 

[thethinker48]

Good post but you’re confusing ConcreteGuy with Concreter, two different people.

Speaking of concreter, does anyone know what ever happened to him? He just kind of vanished one day. I really hope he’s alive but I wouldnt bet on it.

He might still be living the same life

He was a character from roadhouse lol

 

[Flex500]

Good post but you’re confusing ConcreteGuy with Concreter, two different people.

Speaking of concreter, does anyone know what ever happened to him? He just kind of vanished one day. I really hope he’s alive but I wouldnt bet on it.

I wondered the same thing. For some reason @concreter popped into my head the other day and I wondered what happened to him. Drank and smoked like a chimney but man he was living his best life. I hope he is alive. Anyone know his real name so we can try to find out?

 

[totalrecomp]

Actually, I don't care what I say - I'm involved in coaching both amateur and professional so I know exactly what guys use because they write it to me themselves

Out of pure curiosity have you ever had someone disclose to you their doses and they were on less or even far less than you would have assumed based on their level of development? Thank you.

 

[A50#]

I highly agree. If I knew about this in my 20s, my heart would be smaller right now.

I have to agree. I have a genetic heart defect (mild) and see a very good cardiologist who actually founded the heart clinic I go to. He is huge on maintaining proper blood pressure. He has a range that he wants to to see you close to and that's 120/70 regardless of size. My family doctor used to say '140/80' wasn't bad for me. My cardiologist says that's totally unacceptable thinking. Years of high BP can cause a host of serious health issues. It simply causes almost every function in your body to work harder.

 

[nothuman]

I have to agree. I have a genetic heart defect (mild) and see a very good cardiologist who actually founded the heart clinic I go to. He is huge on maintaining proper blood pressure. He has a range that he wants to to see you close to and that's 120/70 regardless of size. My family doctor used to say '140/80' wasn't bad for me. My cardiologist says that's totally unacceptable thinking. Years of high BP can cause a host of serious health issues. It simply causes almost every function in your body to work harder.

Yikes, a doctor who says 140/80 is a danger to his patients. Lifespan starts to decrease above 120 systolic.

Reading the new blood pressure guidelines - Harvard Health

New guidelines now define high blood pressure for all adults as 130/80 millimeters of mercury (mm Hg) or higher. Lowering the threshold for treatment was found to give greater protection against he...

www.health.harvard.edu

 

[luki7788]

Out of pure curiosity have you ever had someone disclose to you their doses and they were on less or even far less than you would have assumed based on their level of development? Thank you.

Less yes but much less definitely not

 

[Shelby]

At my very first show (2005) the guy that won the Overall (as a smaller light heavyweight, 180s) became a friend and we talked about PEDs, he was an older guy, had competed in 1989 and 1990 then took a long break for back surgery. He very candidly told me that all he ever ran precontest was Winstrol, and I have no reason not to believe him. Really humble guy, friendly, family man, nothing "meathead" about him at all.
Just like everything, there is a spectrum of response to everything.

 

[Shelby]

Yikes, a doctor who says 140/80 is a danger to his patients. Lifespan starts to decrease above 120 systolic.

Reading the new blood pressure guidelines - Harvard Health

New guidelines now define high blood pressure for all adults as 130/80 millimeters of mercury (mm Hg) or higher. Lowering the threshold for treatment was found to give greater protection against he...

www.health.harvard.edu

Yah 120/80 used to be considered good but now it's considered prehypertensive.

 

[luki7788]

Yah 120/80 used to be considered good but now it's considered prehypertensive.

Pharmaceutical companies have to sell their drugs somehow

 

[Shelby]

Pharmaceutical companies have to sell their drugs somehow

Given the prevalence of hypertension and its negative outcomes and costs I think it's actually a good move.

 

[Siggy]

I was looking at a study on the mortality reduction provided by statins. I happened upon a video by this DR linked below which explains that risk reduction is distorted since its given in relative risk reduction as opposed to a much more intelligible number known as absolute risk reduction. (basically the absolute risk reduction provided by statins is a joke,however the video linked below isnt the one on statins)

This made me consider the absolute risk reduction provided by blood pressure medication. Maybe a big brain in here can calculate it, Im too lazy to try, but it seems that once thats calculated the actual absolute risk reduction provided would be a very, very low number.


Certainly blood pressure should be controlled, but in this context its possible its just one variable much like LDL,LDL/HDL Ratio, CSRP, etc instead of a magic bullet that guarantees health and longevity for the typical AAS user/abuser above and beyond that of other variables.


I believe it says in article below under MAIN RESULTS that absolute risk reduction would be 1.8%, which is great but not as high as I would expect)

Angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors versus angiotensin receptor blockers for primary hypertension - PMC

Angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors (ACE inhibitors) and angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs) are widely prescribed for primary hypertension (systolic blood pressure > 140 mmHg or diastolic blood pressure > 90 mmHg). However, while ACE ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Relative vs Absolute

ARB is useless compared to ACE https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.117.026112#:~:text=A systematic review/meta-analysis,limit, 0.95–1.03).


Of note in the study below Primary preventive BP lowering is associated with reduced risk for death and CVD if baseline SBP is 140 mm Hg or higher. At lower BP levels, treatment is not associated with any benefit in primary prevention but might offer additional protection in patients with CHD.

Association of Blood Pressure Lowering With Mortality and Cardiovascular Disease Across Blood Pressure Levels: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis - PMC

This systematic review and meta-analysis assesses the association of treatment to lower blood pressure with death and cardiovascular disease at different blood pressure levels in randomized clinical trials.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov