Lee Haney on Leg Development

[hawkmoon]

Ever since John Meadows (RIP) recommended leg curls before squats I haven't looked back. But since then I've pulled a hamstring multiple times when playing sports or doing hill sprints. Anyone else have this issue?

I'd much rather do a widowmaker than stretch 15 minutes a day but it's starting to look that way smh.

Things were different in 1990

 

[marssel]

Ever since John Meadows (RIP) recommended leg curls before squats I haven't looked back. But since then I've pulled a hamstring multiple times when playing sports or doing hill sprints. Anyone else have this issue?

I'd much rather do a widowmaker than stretch 15 minutes a day but it's starting to look that way smh.

Always done leg extensions first and I fucking hate stretching and oddly I’m incredibly flexible not for a big guy just in general and I hate stretching but as the years pass I’m doing more and more for feeling good and injury precaution

 

[juggy38]

For leg size, I don’t know if what I’m doing now is better or worse than starting off a day with squats like I did when I was younger.

But I’ll do

Leg curl variant
Adductor
Leg press…..THEN move onto a squat pattern.

It drastically lowers the load I can use, and volume, but the next day I feel less “wiped out”. A few weeks ago I did an old school 5x5 with barbell squats, and then a 3x8 front squats…..I felt like I got hit by a damn truck the next day.

I’m really liking a high bar smith squat, where my feet are a little bit in front of me. ATG…pause at the bottom…my quads feel that extreme stretch. (My gym doesn’t have a hack squat so this is my replacement)

 

[alfresco]

For leg size, I don’t know if what I’m doing now is better or worse than starting off a day with squats like I did when I was younger.

But I’ll do

Leg curl variant
Adductor
Leg press…..THEN move onto a squat pattern.

It drastically lowers the load I can use, and volume, but the next day I feel less “wiped out”. A few weeks ago I did an old school 5x5 with barbell squats, and then a 3x8 front squats…..I felt like I got hit by a damn truck the next day.

I’m really liking a high bar smith squat, where my feet are a little bit in front of me. ATG…pause at the bottom…my quads feel that extreme stretch. (My gym doesn’t have a hack squat so this is my replacement)

FYI

The abduction machine, for me, when done before squats, like leg curls, is the way to go. The abduction movement really puts my body in a good place for squatting.

 

[juggy38]

FYI

The abduction machine, for me, when done before squats, like leg curls, is the way to go. The abduction movement really puts my body in a good place for squatting.

I’ll give it a try! I hate that machine. My upper ass burns like fire on that

 

[Doitagain]

I’ll give it a try! I hate that machine. My upper ass burns like fire on that

I second that idea, add it as well before compound movements.

 

[KillerStack]

I have been ‘preaching’ that pre-exhaust routine for over 35 years. (Even my oldest posts here reference it.)

The real key to this is literally no rest, or as close to no rest between exercises.

The first gym I ever trained at I convinced the owner (who went on to become a dear friend) to let me set up this circuit, putting all the exercise right next to each other so all I had to do was hobble from one exercise to another. 3 seconds rest between exercises . . . this is true pre-exhaust. Do not let others tell you any different. The pump after doing this, each set to absolute failure, must be experienced to be believed.

Casey Viator’s leg routine . . . he won best legs.

Leg press, 1 x 20 x 750
Leg ext., 1 x 14-20 x 250
Squat, 1 x 14-20 x 505

Leg curls, 1 x 14-20 x 150

I have a friend who was training in the quonset hut at DeLand High School along side Casey (Casey was 19 at the time, training for the Mr. A) in FL at the time and saw him doing this routine. It has also been widely published.

Sergio Olivia was trained by Arthur Jones as well. He attempted this routine, after Casey, but hit the ground like a used condom when he got to squats. He had like three people hammering on his leg which had cramped up, which afforded him some rest. When he resumed, he barely got 20 reps with 135.

Those were the days.

The Viator leg routine is unbelievable. I mean literally unbelievable. I mean 20 ass to grass buried squats with 505 after going to absolute failure on leg press and leg extension with no rest. I don't get really hung up on details like cited loads but this routine just always sounded unlikely to me but I still kind of want to believe it lol. Wish there was footage, would have been absolutely epic if true. The leg routine for the ages. Similarly I wish there was a lot of footage of Platz' leg workouts. Real footage, not performing or demonstrating to the camera or audience. Like his cited 2 sets of 50 with 405. All big fans would kill for this footage.

 

[luki7788]

The Viator leg routine is unbelievable. I mean literally unbelievable. I mean 20 ass to grass buried squats with 505 after going to absolute failure on leg press and leg extension with no rest. I don't get really hung up on details like cited loads but this routine just always sounded unlikely to me but I still kind of want to believe it lol. Wish there was footage, would have been absolutely epic if true. The leg routine for the ages. Similarly I wish there was a lot of footage of Platz' leg workouts. Real footage, not performing or demonstrating to the camera or audience. Like his cited 2 sets of 50 with 405. All big fans would kill for this footage.

I personally think that their described workouts are the same as their alleged cycles - fairy tales for naive children

 

[alfresco]

The Viator leg routine is unbelievable. I mean literally unbelievable. I mean 20 ass to grass buried squats with 505 after going to absolute failure on leg press and leg extension with no rest. I don't get really hung up on details like cited loads but this routine just always sounded unlikely to me but I still kind of want to believe it lol. Wish there was footage, would have been absolutely epic if true. The leg routine for the ages. Similarly I wish there was a lot of footage of Platz' leg workouts. Real footage, not performing or demonstrating to the camera or audience. Like his cited 2 sets of 50 with 405. All big fans would kill for this footage.

Doubting it is fine.

I know people that were there. And I knew Casey.

 

[marssel]

FYI

The abduction machine, for me, when done before squats, like leg curls, is the way to go. The abduction movement really puts my body in a good place for squatting.

Yea I do both but it def preps the body for squats especially if your AAS to grass, I always do extensions with stretches first.

 

[Elvia1023]

The Viator leg routine is unbelievable. I mean literally unbelievable. I mean 20 ass to grass buried squats with 505 after going to absolute failure on leg press and leg extension with no rest. I don't get really hung up on details like cited loads but this routine just always sounded unlikely to me but I still kind of want to believe it lol. Wish there was footage, would have been absolutely epic if true.

Sometimes you have to use common sense and that tells us the answer. Some guys are strength freaks but humans are humans. If the strongest person on the planet couldn't do it now then they couldn't back then. Although there are many factors including how much rest is no rest. I see guys say no rest between sets (even on giant sets) but by the time they have walked to the machine and got in position and moving the weight it's been close to 1 min. I was like a machine in the gym years ago (100 rep leg extensions with the full weight rack etc) and I have watched many crazy vids (Tom Platz for example) so my idea of failure is up there with what's possible but some stuff is just nonsense.

I have forgotten more than I know regarding the Colorado experiment because once I read they done it natural I knew they were full of shit. It could have been possible going off and deflating and shutting down and not training then going back on with hormones. No one is gaining 63 pounds of muscle in 28 days naturally. Bodybuilding is full of bullshit.

 

[165StateChamp]

505 ass to grass for 20 divebombed reps with his spotter wrapped tight around him assisting the whole way is what likely happened…still impressive though.

 

[KillerStack]

Doubting it is fine.

I know people that were there. And I knew Casey.

I can't say it didn't happen but the way it is described makes it the craziest strength/endurance display in the history of the world in my opinion. I don't know if most fans even quite understand what a feat that is. Wish it was documented.

 

[KillerStack]

Sometimes you have to use common sense and that tells us the answer. Some guys are strength freaks but humans are humans. If the strongest person on the planet couldn't do it now then they couldn't back then. Although there are many factors including how much rest is no rest. I see guys say no rest between sets (even on giant sets) but by the time they have walked to the machine and got in position and moving the weight it's been close to 1 min. I was like a machine in the gym years ago (100 rep leg extensions with the full weight rack etc) and I have watched many crazy vids (Tom Platz for example) so my idea of failure is up there with what's possible but some stuff is just nonsense.

I have forgotten more than I know regarding the Colorado experiment because once I read they done it natural I knew they were full of shit. It could have been possible going off and deflating and shutting down and not training then going back on with hormones. No one is gaining 63 pounds of muscle in 28 days naturally. Bodybuilding is full of bullshit.

505 ass to grass for 20 divebombed reps with his spotter wrapped tight around him assisting the whole way is what likely happened…still impressive though.

Yes you'd have to witness it to really know what went on. I think it was said the squats were buried as deep as possible but "ass to grass" means different things to different people. "No rest" as well as you say. I know if I did a leg press and leg extention to failure first I couldn't even hit 225 for one in the squat. My squat strength would drop by more than 50% easily.

I don't think anyone could even regain 63lbs of muscle in 28 days with all the gear in the world. Milos cited some unbelievable number for Flex Wheeler but it might have been "just" 30lbs or something in 4 weeks, can't remember exactly, and Flex ended up in the hospital.

A while back all time world record squat holder Joe Sullivan tried to beat Tom Platz' squat record but came short even
after prepping for it for months. I'm not saying Tom's set wasn't legit but if it was it was crazy. Unfortunately the people involved in the event made many doubt it. I think there are actually many who could it, strongmen etc, maybe even some bodybuilder, but I think they are much heavier probably?

 

[alfresco]

I can't say it didn't happen but the way it is described makes it the craziest strength/endurance display in the history of the world in my opinion. I don't know if most fans even quite understand what a feat that is. Wish it was documented.

It was documented in many magazines at the time.

And I have a few fotos from that time. Will post.

Even more remarkable is that Casey was 19 at the time, training 3x per week for the Mr. A which he won in spectacular fashion.

 

[alfresco]

Yes you'd have to witness it to really know what went on. I think it was said the squats were buried as deep as possible but "ass to grass" means different things to different people. "No rest" as well as you say. I know if I did a leg press and leg extention to failure first I couldn't even hit 225 for one in the squat. My squat strength would drop by more than 50% easily.

I don't think anyone could even regain 63lbs of muscle in 28 days with all the gear in the world. Milos cited some unbelievable number for Flex Wheeler but it might have been "just" 30lbs or something in 4 weeks, can't remember exactly, and Flex ended up in the hospital.

A while back all time world record squat holder Joe Sullivan tried to beat Tom Platz' squat record but came short even
after prepping for it for months. I'm not saying Tom's set wasn't legit but if it was it was crazy. Unfortunately the people involved in the event made many doubt it. I think there are actually many who could it, strongmen etc, maybe even some bodybuilder, but I think they are much heavier probably?

The Colorado Experiment.

This is soooo boring . . . but bears repeating. It was no secret and was disclosed at the get go, Casey was rebuilding previously existing muscle.

He dieted way way down at the start and was financially motivated (paid by the pound, for his gains). It has been done before and since by other bodybuilders.

I think the only thing mildly interesting is that the ‘regains’ were accomplished by training 3x per week, <30 minutes, about a dozen exercises. (I have all the original workouts, some have been posted here.)

And by Arthur’s own admission he did not lose as much body fat as was said he did. (I have all the calculations including calories, have been posted here before.)

 

[KillerStack]

The Colorado Experiment.

This is soooo boring . . . but bears repeating. It was no secret and was disclosed at the get go, Casey was rebuilding previously existing muscle.

He dieted way way down at the start and was financially motivated (paid by the pound, for his gains). It has been done before and since by other bodybuilders.

I think the only thing mildly interesting is that the ‘regains’ were accomplished by training 3x per week, <30 minutes, about a dozen exercises. (I have all the original workouts, some have been posted here.)

And by Arthur’s own admission he did not lose as much body fat as was said he did. (I have all the calculations including calories, have been posted here before.)

I hope you don't think I'm being antagonistic just because. It's still somewhat interesting to me and I've read most of your posts relating to Arthur Jones here over the years even if I've forgotten the details. I've discussed many of the same things on this forum for 20 years lol.

I do wonder if it really has been done before to that extent. Over the past few years I was on a ventilator for 3 weeks twice and both times I lost, what the doctor called "70lbs of muscle." Of course it wasn't really just lean tissue, but it was scale "weight." I came back really fast, first 20-30lbs was almost "overnight" but I was maybe only half way back after the first month (I put on weight way too fast for it to be healthy, I wasn't supposed to even drink a lot so as to not strain my heart.) I question if 63lbs doesn't stretch the limits of what is possible to regain in a month. I don't know. I think there's different tricks you could use if you wanted, you could dehydrate for the start date (I was on IV loop diuretics which contributed to the 70lbs drop in scale weight I'm sure) and you could maybe weigh in with 20lbs of food in your stomach for the finish date. Like I said Milos coached Flex for one show where Milos said Flex looked completely untrained, like a stick, a month out, and then put on, I think, about 30lbs to almost his previous competitive form. Even that was probably exaggerated a bit, like it often is, though I'm sure he did gain a lot. It was obviously too much, Flex ended up missing the show iirc. I don't remember what you thought of Viator's natural status either or whether Viator himself admitted anabolic use in private?

As far as that giant set, it would be cool if someone tried to recreate it though you'd have to have the same exact leg press and leg extention to make conditions the same. You'd really have to see the depth of the leg press and squats too. A one inch shorter stroke might add a 100lbs. What I would be most curious about is the amount of strength lost for the squat. Like in your post where others tried it, I'd expect most to completely fold on the squat on the first rep with any appreciable load. I don't know if I'd even manage a bodyweight squat lol. I lose so much strength if I go to failure that I questioned even the descriptions of the rest pause sets in DC training. I am not saying the accounts aren't truthful but I'm amazed that some get 3-4 additional reps after a 15 breath rest after the main set to failure. I can't get even one rep even if I strip 10% weight off. I've tried many times in some type of bench press. But people are different.

A 20 rep squat with 500lbs fresh makes you a bad man, it's still very impressive especially if done way deep bodybuilding or "Oly" style. I think this powerlifter named Matt Wenning said doing Platz' 23 x 525 is nothing to him but he is an absolute freak with ALTWRs (or at least used to have).

 

[primobolan]

As much as I loved Dorian and what he ushered in Haney was the epitome of excellence. I like the fact the his legs did not have the over developed inner thigh that is so prevalent today as competitors look to fill in the thighs as much as possible as to not expose the lack of overall quad development. Haney on ESPN in the mornings was awesome.

 

[marssel]

505 ass to grass for 20 divebombed reps with his spotter wrapped tight around him assisting the whole way is what likely happened…still impressive though.

Using Brad Castleberry plates too of course

 

[lookslikesausage]

I hope you don't think I'm being antagonistic just because. It's still somewhat interesting to me and I've read most of your posts relating to Arthur Jones here over the years even if I've forgotten the details. I've discussed many of the same things on this forum for 20 years lol.

I do wonder if it really has been done before to that extent. Over the past few years I was on a ventilator for 3 weeks twice and both times I lost, what the doctor called "70lbs of muscle." Of course it wasn't really just lean tissue, but it was scale "weight." I came back really fast, first 20-30lbs was almost "overnight" but I was maybe only half way back after the first month (I put on weight way too fast for it to be healthy, I wasn't supposed to even drink a lot so as to not strain my heart.) I question if 63lbs doesn't stretch the limits of what is possible to regain in a month. I don't know. I think there's different tricks you could use if you wanted, you could dehydrate for the start date (I was on IV loop diuretics which contributed to the 70lbs drop in scale weight I'm sure) and you could maybe weigh in with 20lbs of food in your stomach for the finish date. Like I said Milos coached Flex for one show where Milos said Flex looked completely untrained, like a stick, a month out, and then put on, I think, about 30lbs to almost his previous competitive form. Even that was probably exaggerated a bit, like it often is, though I'm sure he did gain a lot. It was obviously too much, Flex ended up missing the show iirc. I don't remember what you thought of Viator's natural status either or whether Viator himself admitted anabolic use in private?

As far as that giant set, it would be cool if someone tried to recreate it though you'd have to have the same exact leg press and leg extention to make conditions the same. You'd really have to see the depth of the leg press and squats too. A one inch shorter stroke might add a 100lbs. What I would be most curious about is the amount of strength lost for the squat. Like in your post where others tried it, I'd expect most to completely fold on the squat on the first rep with any appreciable load. I don't know if I'd even manage a bodyweight squat lol. I lose so much strength if I go to failure that I questioned even the descriptions of the rest pause sets in DC training. I am not saying the accounts aren't truthful but I'm amazed that some get 3-4 additional reps after a 15 breath rest after the main set to failure. I can't get even one rep even if I strip 10% weight off. I've tried many times in some type of bench press. But people are different.

A 20 rep squat with 500lbs fresh makes you a bad man, it's still very impressive especially if done way deep bodybuilding or "Oly" style. I think this powerlifter named Matt Wenning said doing Platz' 23 x 525 is nothing to him but he is an absolute freak with ALTWRs (or at least used to have).

Not to take anything away from any powerlifters, but the way most powerlifters squat is in a different stratosphere compared to the way Platz and Olympic weightlifters do their squats. They're almost like a completely different lift. Matt Wenning is/was an animal. He was a Westside guy and was no doubt one of the best in his prime but I don't think for a second he's spent any time doing Olympic Weightlifting style squats (why would he?). I guess my point is, hitting 500 for 23 hitting or getting just below parallel shooting your hips backs and leaning forward isn't nearly as hard as dropping straight down until your hams touch your calves and coming back up. Of course, the latter style will favor shorter lifters with shorter femurs shallow hip sockets. Most taller lifters will struggle with this style. Nevertheless, it's still much more difficult and I'll just make this one last point. If you took an OLY lifter and asked them to do a powerlifting style squat, I have no doubts they could hit incredibly high numbers immediately. If you took a powerlifter and asked them to do an OLY style squats, I have no doubts they'd struggle immensely and there'd be no carryover from their typical squatting style. That's not a knock on them either as their sport doesn't require that depth on squats.