Less Estrogen = More Fat Loss? (in real life)

[omoplata]

OK, during a cutting cycle that has let's say GH, T3 and a relatively low dose of AAS of your choice (just enough to keep the T3 from eating too much muscle), does controlling estrogen/estradiol with something like Anastrozole lead to more fat loss?

There are studies that show various results when it comes to fat loss and estrogen levels, but what actually does happen in real life?

I am not talking about water weight loss or visible hardening; of course you will look less bloated with less estrogen. But what about real fat tissue... In your experience, do you lose more fat when you lower -or at least control- estrogen levels?

Thanks Guys

 

[KillerStack]

There are studies that show various results when it comes to fat loss and estrogen levels, but what actually does happen in real life?

What kind of results seen in these studies? I recall reading that estrogen is actually a lipolytic hormone.

 

[omoplata]

That's correct. Some studies do show increased lypolisis (fat burning) due to estrogen, but I also recall studies showing female-pattern-fat deposits due to prolonged exposure to high estrogen levels.

I do not have any links, however, as these are things I read over the last several years.

In any case, what I am really wondering is what happens in bodybuilders. The studies may or may not be relevant because almost none of them are done with bodybuilders. Bodybuilders have far more circulating androgens, are far leaner and do many many things very differently than average guys. So I am curious what you guys have observed in real life....

 

[SupremeSportsEnhance]

That's correct. Some studies do show increased lypolisis (fat burning) due to estrogen, but I also recall studies showing female-pattern-fat deposits due to prolonged exposure to high estrogen levels.

I do not have any links, however, as these are things I read over the last several years.

In any case, what I am really wondering is what happens in bodybuilders. The studies may or may not be relevant because almost none of them are done with bodybuilders. Bodybuilders have far more circulating androgens, are far leaner and do many many things very differently than average guys. So I am curious what you guys have observed in real life....

Enhance the androgen:estrogen RATIO and you will enhance fat-loss, period.

 

[sexyboy]

Enhance the androgen:estrogen RATIO and you will enhance fat-loss, period.

yup just holding less estrogen will cuase less water retention and lower sex drive.

SB

 

[maldorf]

Enhance the androgen:estrogen RATIO and you will enhance fat-loss, period.

I was going to say this too. If you supplement just a small amout of test you shouldnt have estrogen problems really. Getting your estrogen too low isnt healthy. It can lead to low libido, impaired immune system, etc. Its not a good thing to lower estrogen too much. Just ask women with breast cancer that have to take arimidex to lower their estrogen.

 

[machola]

I was going to say this too. If you supplement just a small amout of test you shouldnt have estrogen problems really. Getting your estrogen too low isnt healthy. It can lead to low libido, impaired immune system, etc. Its not a good thing to lower estrogen too much. Just ask women with breast cancer that have to take arimidex to lower their estrogen.

No that won't work. You'd have to ask a man that takes arimidex. Estrogen is to a female like testosterone is to a man, if the level gets too low they can suffer from all sorts of problems. I've taken letro for years and feel great. Give a woman letro and she will feel like crap. If my test goes low I will feel run down, low sex drive, fatigued, etc. If a woman's testosterone gets low they may not even realize it. It goes deeper than that too...

**broken link removed**

Hormone Replacement in Joint Fluid Has Potential Regenerative Effect

ScienceDaily (Mar. 31, 2010) — German researchers determined that concentrations of the sex hormones, testosterone in men and estrogen in women, may have a positive effect on the regenerative potential of cartilage tissue. The study suggests hormone replacement in the joint fluid of men and women might be beneficial in treating late stages of human osteoarthritis (OA) by regenerating damaged tissue.

 

[omoplata]

I've taken letro for years and feel great.

Since you took letro for a long time, would you say that it did help with fat loss? Did you see positive effects on bodybuilding-related parameters?

 

[machola]

Since you took letro for a long time, would you say that it did help with fat loss? Did you see positive effects on bodybuilding-related parameters?

I haven't seen any noticeable help with fat loss. When I'm lean its because I've dieted just like before I took letro. Letro didn't make dieting any easier or shed fat faster as far as I can tell. Positives are I look and feel better due to lower blood pressure, less water retention, not having puffy nipples, etc. From a bodybuilding perspective you can see where you're at better because of less water retention.

 

[maldorf]

No that won't work. You'd have to ask a man that takes arimidex. Estrogen is to a female like testosterone is to a man, if the level gets too low they can suffer from all sorts of problems. I've taken letro for years and feel great. Give a woman letro and she will feel like crap. If my test goes low I will feel run down, low sex drive, fatigued, etc. If a woman's testosterone gets low they may not even realize it. It goes deeper than that too...

**broken link removed**

Well, all I can say from my experience with arimidex is that when I overused it I was always getting sick and it is harder to put on mass. Both of these sides I have seen indicated as occuring when your estrogen is too low. SO youre saying its fine to knock down your estrogen below normal?

 

[maldorf]

I believe it is dangerous advice to make it sound like each and every man that takes testosterone is going to need anti estrogens. These drugs carry a whole host of side effects all their own., and if estrogen falls too low it is not good for your health. Its not so simple as testosterone is the male hormone and estogen is for women.

Here is something I found real quick that talks about healthy estrogen levels for men:
"Male Estrogen Level - What is Ideal?

I like to see estridol at 30 or less. I think anywhere between 10 and 30 is the sweet spot for most men.

Stay in that zone, and you'll avoid all the physical problems mentioned above.

What is too low?

If you drop below 10, then you need to start worrying about hip fractures, osterporosis, mental decline, and heart disease.

Once you fall into that zone, it's time to take action!"

 

[machola]

I'm personally not worried about having a low estrogen level. Maybe it will have some horrible effect on my health but I haven't heard of low estrogen having a bad effect on men. I'd be more concerned with having a high estrogen level.

Endocr Rev. 2004 Jun;25(3):389-425.
Androgens and bone.

Vanderschueren D, Vandenput L, Boonen S, Lindberg MK, Bouillon R, Ohlsson C.

Laboratory for Experimental Medicine and Endocrinology, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium.
Abstract

Loss of estrogens or androgens increases the rate of bone remodeling by removing restraining effects on osteoblastogenesis and osteoclastogenesis, and also causes a focal imbalance between resorption and formation by prolonging the lifespan of osteoclasts and shortening the lifespan of osteoblasts. Conversely, androgens, as well as estrogens, maintain cancellous bone mass and integrity, regardless of age or sex. Although androgens, via the androgen receptor (AR), and estrogens, via the estrogen receptors (ERs), can exert these effects, their relative contribution remains uncertain. Recent studies suggest that androgen action on cancellous bone depends on (local) aromatization of androgens into estrogens. However, at least in rodents, androgen action on cancellous bone can be directly mediated via AR activation, even in the absence of ERs. Androgens also increase cortical bone size via stimulation of both longitudinal and radial growth. First, androgens, like estrogens, have a biphasic effect on endochondral bone formation: at the start of puberty, sex steroids stimulate endochondral bone formation, whereas they induce epiphyseal closure at the end of puberty. Androgen action on the growth plate is, however, clearly mediated via aromatization in estrogens and interaction with ERalpha. Androgens increase radial growth, whereas estrogens decrease periosteal bone formation. This effect of androgens may be important because bone strength in males seems to be determined by relatively higher periosteal bone formation and, therefore, greater bone dimensions, relative to muscle mass at older age. Experiments in mice again suggest that both the AR and ERalpha pathways are involved in androgen action on radial bone growth. ERbeta may mediate growth-limiting effects of estrogens in the female but does not seem to be involved in the regulation of bone size in males. In conclusion, androgens may protect men against osteoporosis via maintenance of cancellous bone mass and expansion of cortical bone. Such androgen action on bone is mediated by the AR and ERalpha.

PMID: 15180950 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Free Article

 

[slacker86]

the first time i used adex i used it on a cycle that didnt include deca first of of all (which in hindsight wasnt that smart given what i wanted to accomplish), but one major thing i noticed was that my joints started to hurt a decent amount more after doing heavy weights. Kind of a noob compared to you guys but just thought id give some personal experience.

 

[maldorf]

the first time i used adex i used it on a cycle that didnt include deca first of of all (which in hindsight wasnt that smart given what i wanted to accomplish), but one major thing i noticed was that my joints started to hurt a decent amount more after doing heavy weights. Kind of a noob compared to you guys but just thought id give some personal experience.

Yes, I had that too. I forgot about it though.

 

[maldorf]

I'm personally not worried about having a low estrogen level. Maybe it will have some horrible effect on my health but I haven't heard of low estrogen having a bad effect on men. I'd be more concerned with having a high estrogen level.

Well, the evidence is out there you just have to read it and take it to heart. Don't you think there is a reason that men have estrogen in their systems? Dont you think it serves a purpose, or is it just there for no reason? There a a minimum level that men need to maintain in order to be healthy. You should have yours tested and see where its at.

 

[LATS]

HERE IS WHAT I AM CURIOUS AS TO.. we know that estro can have a certain negative impact on the prostate.. but is it a certain range of estro or is it more of a test to estro ratio..? so lets say my estro is high..but my test is still much high and the ratio is still good.. does this have a neagtive impact.. or is it just a high estro count in general..? understand what i am saying? lol

 

[machola]

Well, the evidence is out there you just have to read it and take it to heart. Don't you think there is a reason that men have estrogen in their systems? Dont you think it serves a purpose, or is it just there for no reason? There a a minimum level that men need to maintain in order to be healthy. You should have yours tested and see where its at.

I have yet to see any evidence. There may be a benefit to having estrogen, There probably is but its possible there isn't too. What is the reason for VLDL in our blood?

This is the reason I don't worry about it. I started trt a few years ago and about the 2nd week I had some serious puffy itchy nipples. I was bloated to hell. I tried nolva, clomid, exemestane with no effect. Within a week after starting letro I was back to normal. If I miss a few days of taking my letro I get that itchy sensation again. I'm more concerned about having high estrogen.

 

[maldorf]

I have yet to see any evidence. There may be a benefit to having estrogen, There probably is but its possible there isn't too. What is the reason for VLDL in our blood?

This is the reason I don't worry about it. I started trt a few years ago and about the 2nd week I had some serious puffy itchy nipples. I was bloated to hell. I tried nolva, clomid, exemestane with no effect. Within a week after starting letro I was back to normal. If I miss a few days of taking my letro I get that itchy sensation again. I'm more concerned about having high estrogen.

Here is one reason to not have too low an HDL:

"HDL cholesterol is higher in people who are lean, exercise regularly, and do not smoke cigarettes. Estrogen increases a person's HDL cholesterol, which explains why women generally have higher HDL levels than men do."

Cholesterol - Why is HDL the good cholesterol on MedicineNet

Here is another reason, bone health.
"A new study has found that men with low estrogen levels have an increased risk for future hip fracture, and those with both low estrogen and low testosterone levels have the greatest risk. "

**broken link removed**

Estrogen and the circulatory system:
"Chicago, IL - Both low and high serum levels of estradiol, compared with mid-range levels, are significantly and independently associated with increased all-cause mortality in men with chronic systolic heart failure, suggests a prospective observational study in the May 13, 2009 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association "
"Speculating on the mechanisms behind the risk increase at low estradiol levels, he observed that "estrogen has some vascular protective and cardioprotective influences. So people who have lower levels of estradiol would have less of that. It's probably true even in people with heart failure."

theheart.org: Cardiology news, educational programming, and opinions

I don't think there is a practicing endocrinologist that would reccomend lowering your estrogen level below normal in a male. Mine is well within normal even when doing my HRT and so no anti estrogen is needed. To just blindly be using this stuff and not knowing what your estrogen levels are is just about as bad as using testosterone and having no idea where your levels are. To think that we can go in and change our bodychemistry like this and ignore millions of years of evolution is fool hardy.

 

[machola]

good stuff

Cholesterol - Why is HDL the good cholesterol on MedicineNet


**broken link removed**

theheart.org: Cardiology news, educational programming, and opinions

Interesting studies. Thanks for posting.

 

[Shark22]

Wish there was a way to check it mysef on a weekly basis.