Lower-Side effect HRT additions

[rotinaj]

What do you guys like to throw in to better retain LBM without just increasing your Test/TRT dose?

Lately I have been trying to be more “healthy” with what I stay on for longer durations with and with that I’m trying to avoid higher-androgenic and hepatotoxic compounds.

There is literature that shows Ostarine is rather anabolic and promotes tendon/joint healing, GH is always good but expensive, EQ low side effects, peptides?

Micro doses of tren is bad for your liver/lipids, nandrolone is rough on the heart, winny murders joints/lipids, mast will make you go bald..
Of course nothing is perfect, but what is your go to beyond just increase your test dose?
What is your least-worst approach to bumping up anabolism with less to worry about?

 

[Reno911]

I would avoid the Ostarine. Pretty much all of the SARMs I've tried tax the liver and will effect lipids.

I feel that insulin compliments well with TRT with pretty much no sides when used appropriately.

Bumping up GH is also an option. I think north of 6+ IU's makes some sense when getting the most out of your TRT. Maybe high GH isn't a long term option but it can be rotating in and out at higher dosages.

 

[pickapeck]

Primobolan

 

[fisther69]

I like GH, low dose tren (100mg a week), EQ (1cc a week).

 

[nidnoy]

Primobolan

How much?, traditionally primo has been seen as milder sides but it seems recently we are seeing it pushing estro too low, hitting lipids harder than thought. Thanks.

 

[bbxtreme]

HGH, Primo, and EQ would be my choices in that order based on the goal in your post.

 

[pickapeck]

How much?, traditionally primo has been seen as milder sides but it seems recently we are seeing it pushing estro too low, hitting lipids harder than thought. Thanks.

This is about TRT additions that are more healthy so the dose is low. Typically TRT is 100-200 mg/w. Primo for me would be 75% of the TRT dose. More than that and my estrogen crashes. At 50-75% I look drier and a little more shape and fullness.

 

[Performance Based]

My generic TRT is 200 Test + 300EQ. I feel bloody fantastic with it and it allows me to maintain a fairly high level of both generic output (career) and performance based training simultaneously. Noticeable difference in recovery vs. 200 test solely.

 

[Black Beard]

What do you guys like to throw in to better retain LBM without just increasing your Test/TRT dose?

Lately I have been trying to be more “healthy” with what I stay on for longer durations with and with that I’m trying to avoid higher-androgenic and hepatotoxic compounds.

There is literature that shows Ostarine is rather anabolic and promotes tendon/joint healing, GH is always good but expensive, EQ low side effects, peptides?

Micro doses of tren is bad for your liver/lipids, nandrolone is rough on the heart, winny murders joints/lipids, mast will make you go bald..
Of course nothing is perfect, but what is your go to beyond just increase your test dose?
What is your least-worst approach to bumping up anabolism with less to worry about?

Nothing beats low dose HGH as an ancillary to TRT, and high quality generics are worth every cent. You get what you pay for. The main reason older men get big bellies and small weak arms and lose sexual and physical performance is primarily IGF/HGH axis decline. HGH really enhances AAS mg per mg, helps you maintain lower body fat more easily, improves well-being, etc.


People think anti-aging effect means they are going to look younger, but what it really means is you will not get the age related decline in skin quality, body composition, well-being, sleep, joint health, cognition, bone density, immune system (very important) and many many more benefits. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of medicine. Many others have noticed that HGH has a "muscle memory" effect, seems to keep strength and muscles gains from higher doses better.


At 2-3 IUs from our own sponsors @theprovider (black tops) & @opti (grey tops) , it's honestly invaluable in the long run. You won't fully appreciate it until your physical capacity/body comp/skin stays "young" and your non-GH peers' does not.

 

[xpoc]

I have been on TRT for well over a decade. Always around 200mg per week. Lipids are always good as long as I stay with this protocol. One time I added Primo at 400mg...then dropped to 200mg and it absolutely TANKED my estrogen and HDL. My estro had previously been right in the middle of normal range and the primo made it undetectable. My HDL dropped from mid 60's to low 20's. Stopped Primo and things went back to normal.

After biceps surgery the doc scripted me a blend of Test/Nandrolone which was 140mg test: 60 mg. nandrolone per week. This really helped with the joints and I gained my size back pretty quickly (much faster than projected). This had no negative impact on my lipids.

So IMO, your best TRT + would be low dose nandrolone.

 

[rotinaj]

I have been on TRT for well over a decade. Always around 200mg per week. Lipids are always good as long as I stay with this protocol. One time I added Primo at 400mg...then dropped to 200mg and it absolutely TANKED my estrogen and HDL. My estro had previously been right in the middle of normal range and the primo made it undetectable. My HDL dropped from mid 60's to low 20's. Stopped Primo and things went back to normal.

After biceps surgery the doc scripted me a blend of Test/Nandrolone which was 140mg test: 60 mg. nandrolone per week. This really helped with the joints and I gained my size back pretty quickly (much faster than projected). This had no negative impact on my lipids.

So IMO, your best TRT + would be low dose nandrolone.

Nandrolone is not a safe long-term option, regardless of dose. There are plenty of studies on it.

“This study indicated that nandrolone, whether associated with resistance training or not, induces cardiac hypertrophy, which is associated with enhanced collagen content, re-expression of fetal genes the in left ventricle, and impaired diastolic and systolic function.”

Study how it affects the heart

It would be better to include something like primo alongside enclomiphene/ezetimibe as ancillaries to manage estrogen/lipids

 

[xpoc]

Nandrolone is not a safe long-term option, regardless of dose. There are plenty of studies on it.

“This study indicated that nandrolone, whether associated with resistance training or not, induces cardiac hypertrophy, which is associated with enhanced collagen content, re-expression of fetal genes the in left ventricle, and impaired diastolic and systolic function.”

Study how it affects the heart

It would be better to include something like primo alongside enclomiphene/ezetimibe as ancillaries to manage estrogen/lipids

Just playing Devil's advocate here.... but if Nandrolone causes cardiac hypertrophy, how do we know Primo doesn't? We have a study that shows nandrolone does, is there a study that shows Primo doesn't? I would wager, it does too...just has not been studied as much as nandrolone. I am not saying Nandro is a safe "long-term" option, but I would bet it is safer than Primo at the same dose.

 

[rotinaj]

Just playing Devil's advocate here.... but if Nandrolone causes cardiac hypertrophy, how do we know Primo doesn't? We have a study that shows nandrolone does, is there a study that shows Primo doesn't? I would wager, it does too...just has not been studied as much as nandrolone. I am not saying Nandro is a safe "long-term" option, but I would bet it is safer than Primo at the same dose.

Almost every drug has side effects, I doubt Primo is entirely safe comparatively.

The important question is, can those negative side effects be mitigated with ancillaries or are they permanent?

Like GH.. you can utilize metformin along side it to manage insulin sensitivity issues, and metformin doesn’t realistically have any notable negative health implications.

It’s a hard balance to find which is why I made the thread.

 

[xpoc]

Almost every drug has side effects, I doubt Primo is entirely safe comparatively.

The important question is, can those negative side effects be mitigated with ancillaries or are they permanent?

Like GH.. you can utilize metformin along side it to manage insulin sensitivity issues, and metformin doesn’t realistically have any notable negative health implications.

It’s a hard balance to find which is why I made the thread

I am absolutely NOT a drug expert...way out of my wheelhouse. I am a workout guy, I am 50+ and only have used TRT in the past. When I ventured outside my TRT protocol by using Primo my important heart lipids TANKED. I went from being good, to terrible, and that was at a low(er) dose than most people take. When I took the Deca (nandro) my doc scripted my numbers did not move. AND, I got better results from the Nandro. Joints felt great, got bigger, stayed lean. With Primo I had zero energy and my joints hurt. I gained a bit of muscle and stayed lean but not necessarily leaner than the Deca.

I am not trying to argue. I am just an old guy looking for the same thing other old guys are looking for...a way to fight off father time without serious long term implications. I actually previously posted about my concerns about Nandro and was somewhat reassured by the response by TYPE II X who is a guy I trust. Here is that thread:

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/nandrolone-data-including-joint-pain-relief-mechanisms-by-type-iix.171478/page-2#post-3096785

And then there was this article

Bring Back Deca-Durabolin!

Can Deca Replace Testosterone in HRT? A hormone that does most of what testosterone does but is 10 times more powerful and doesn’t affect your prostate or your hair – why aren’t we using it? I started thinking about the anabolic steroid nandrolone (deca-durabolin) because of my dog. He was...

forums.t-nation.com

So personally, I feel much better about adding Deca to TRT than I would feel about Primo or Anavar etc. That said, based on what I have read, if I had to choose the "safest" with the least sides....I would go with hGH. The problem with hGH would be cancer concerns, but for guys 50+ it seems that would be a long term drug that would give you the look you are going for without skewing lipids. However, there is always the big "C" issue looming about.....

 

[TheOtherOne55]

There is literature that shows Ostarine is rather anabolic and promotes tendon/joint healing, GH is always good but expensive, EQ low side effects, peptides?

not trying to be a smart ass but this isn’t 2014 anymore. GH is not expensive at all. Most random guys exploring the “anti-aging” craze will spend more on peptides than on good generic GH.

 

[xpoc]

not trying to be a smart ass but this isn’t 2014 anymore. GH is not expensive at all. Most random guys exploring the “anti-aging” craze will spend more on peptides than on good generic GH.

AGREE with this. My TRT clinic is pushing Sermorlean and other peptides that cost more than than real deal, hGH. They do claim the peptides are "safer" as they are specific to certain tissue growth, like a sniper whereas hGH is more like a grenade and impacts all tissue (including cancer). BUT, I am not sure if there is any scientific data to support this. Would love someone who really knows about this to chime in.

 

[Hammer4]

Everyone is right! 200 test 100 deca 100 primo for the win

 

[lgnorant]

mast?

 

[xpoc]

Everyone is right! 200 test 100 deca 100 primo for the win

I would say 200 test, 100 deca per week.... 2 IU of hGh per day. Just enough to build/maintain muscle, ease joint pain, stay lean and minimize risks. There will be guys who come on here and say...thats not TRT. Anything more than 10mg daily of test is not TRT. OK, we get it. Understood. Whatever you want to call it, the protocol above is something that (based on what I have researched and experimented with) seems to be reasonable. Although, I would only do the Deca for 10 weeks, 2x per year. So a total of 2 cycles...which is one bottle of 200mgx 10ml per year. And with the test I have not had to use any AI since I switched to 60mg (0.3 ml) every M-W-F injected subq. That would be a total of 180mg test, 100mg deca (2x per year for 10 weeks per cycle) weekly, and 2 IU of hgh 5x per week. IMO that would produce good results while minimizing sides. Why the hgh only 5x per week? Most people will say it is to save money. But, the guy I trust believes it will minimize risks of blood pressure and carpal tunnel. Better safe than sorry if you are in this for decades, not years.

 

[Black Beard]

AGREE with this. My TRT clinic is pushing Sermorlean and other peptides that cost more than than real deal, hGH. They do claim the peptides are "safer" as they are specific to certain tissue growth, like a sniper whereas hGH is more like a grenade and impacts all tissue (including cancer). BUT, I am not sure if there is any scientific data to support this. Would love someone who really knows about this to chime in.

You can confirm sermorelin and lots of these peptides are overpriced junk if you draw baseline IGF-1 and then again after you run the peptides.

That analogy is complete non-sense because the goal of these peptides is to make your body produce more HGH (which they often suck at). Once that GH is theoretically produced, it will do the same thing exogenous HGH will do.