Masteron only

[OuchThatHurts]

Not a huge fan of masteron bc it can dry me out and make my joints achy but have you considered doing hCG + mast? You probably wouldn't need an AI at all. Or do the mast for a couple weeks to a month, see how you feel. Then add the test or not?

Since the effects of an SHBG deficiency mimics that of taking testosterone (high free test, high estrogen, high androstenedione). SHBG binds to everything from DHT to estradiol and everything in between. You may need an AI permanently.

 

[phoenix2]

Not a huge fan of masteron bc it can dry me out and make my joints achy but have you considered doing hCG + mast? You probably wouldn't need an AI at all. Or do the mast for a couple weeks to a month, see how you feel. Then add the test or not?

Since the effects of an SHBG deficiency mimics that of taking testosterone (high free test, high estrogen, high androstenedione). SHBG binds to everything from DHT to estradiol and everything in between. You may need an AI permanently.

Yes. I've taken in consideration the HCG + masteron way.
As you said, i'll try first with masteron only for a couple of weeks, then if i don't feel good I will add some HCG or some test in very small amount (like 10-15 mg ed).

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Yes. I've taken in consideration the HCG + masteron way.
As you said, i'll try first with masteron only for a couple of weeks, then if i don't feel good I will add some HCG or some test in very small amount (like 10-15 mg ed).

Sounds like a plan. I'm not familiar with how bad Masteron will shut your endogenous test down. Maybe someone here is more familiar with that compound and can answer that. I do know that free T clears quickly so you may not need as much but you may need it more often.

 

[phoenix2]

Sounds like a plan. I'm not familiar with how bad Masteron will shut your endogenous test down. Maybe someone here is more familiar with that compound and can answer that. I do know that free T clears quickly so you may not need as much but you may need it more often.

Free test clears quickly especially with propionate.
I'm on third day with masteron only (50 mg ed) without test. I feel good in terms of mood and libido, better than with test. Maybe a little "flat". The perfect mood if you have to face some problems in life and you don't want to deal with anxiety and paranoia.
No loss of size or strenght for the moment, obviously.
The only downside is lethargy.
I feel physically drained most of the day, especially after an hard workout.
Maybe giving some time the situation will eventually stabilyze by itself.
On a side note, my voice on masteron only is deeper and my dreams very vivid (noticed that after dropping test).

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Free test clears quickly especially with propionate.
I'm on third day with masteron only (50 mg ed) without test. I feel good in terms of mood and libido, better than with test. Maybe a little "flat". The perfect mood if you have to face some problems in life and you don't want to deal with anxiety and paranoia.
No loss of size or strenght for the moment, obviously.
The only downside is lethargy.
I feel physically drained most of the day, especially after an hard workout.
Maybe giving some time the situation will eventually stabilyze by itself.
On a side note, my voice on masteron only is deeper and my dreams very vivid (noticed that after dropping test).

Sucks with the lethargy. When you fire up 10 or 15mg of test per morning, hopefully that resolves itself. Lethargy is one of those symptoms that's so non-specific. I'd ask your doc for a male hormone panel. Maybe something is off. Just to be sure.

 

[Cerberus777]

Yes. I've taken in consideration the HCG + masteron way.
As you said, i'll try first with masteron only for a couple of weeks, then if i don't feel good I will add some HCG or some test in very small amount (like 10-15 mg ed).

I used TE so it was harder. But with prop? I'd start with 5mg a day and bump it up weekly 5mg until I saw some issues. See if the body would normalize. I found what made me a little fluffy/watery would subside in a few days. On test alone I need an AI at the dose that feels good. But much less than originally needed. With Mast remember it can lower cortisone so acky joints dosnt mean low estrogen per say.

 

[phoenix2]

I used TE so it was harder. But with prop? I'd start with 5mg a day and bump it up weekly 5mg until I saw some issues. See if the body would normalize. I found what made me a little fluffy/watery would subside in a few days. On test alone I need an AI at the dose that feels good. But much less than originally needed. With Mast remember it can lower cortisone so acky joints dosnt mean low estrogen per say.

Thank you for sharing your experience.
I will try this way and i hope i will need "human" AI dosage.
I will also ditch the proviron and save it for times in which the situation will normalize.

 

[Type-IIx]

Estrogen sides even on lower doses is the big one. Less frequent injections make you feel worse since the test will metabolize faster. Due to faster metabolism, standard TRT doses don't feel good. Getting estrogen sides when introducing compounds that are supposed to dry you out since they'll tank SHBG. I found gradually increasing doses helps a lot.

Interesting. Do you have clinically low (out of range) SHBG completely off cycle? If so, does this precede the use of androgens ("base-line")?

 

[phoenix2]

Interesting. Do you have clinically low (out of range) SHBG completely off cycle? If so, does this precede the use of androgens ("base-line")?

Personally before touching AAS i had normal SHBG levels and AIs always worked linearly. When i started to fuck with DHT compounds my problems started too. Now i have to take AIs even with low test dosage, because normal E2 levels feel high to me. And yes, proviron, masteron have opposite effects on me. They make me aromatize more because there's too much free testosterone floating around. Then with AIs starts a vicious circle. AIs drop estrogen levels, so free test increases further and SHBG decreases further. You feel good 3 days a week, even if you do the same damn things everyday. If take proviron with test propionate, for me, is pratically impossible to manage E2. Even with letrozole.

 

[Type-IIx]

Personally before touching AAS i had normal SHBG levels and AIs always worked linearly. When i started to fuck with DHT compounds my problems started too. Now i have to take AIs even with low test dosage, because normal E2 levels feel high to me. And yes, proviron, masteron have opposite effects on me. They make me aromatize more because there's too much free testosterone floating around. Then with AIs starts a vicious circle. AIs drop estrogen levels, so free test increases further and SHBG decreases further. You feel good 3 days a week, even if you do the same damn things everyday. If take proviron with test propionate, for me, is pratically impossible to manage E2. Even with letrozole.

Honestly, this does not sound atypical. Androgens lower SHBG (this is good for us, otherwise they wouldn't really work very well). Are you guys just saying you suffer from low SHBG because SHBG is low on cycle and you have sides?

 

[phoenix2]

Honestly, this does not sound atypical. Androgens lower SHBG (this is good for us, otherwise they wouldn't really work very well). Are you guys just saying you suffer from low SHBG because SHBG is low on cycle and you have sides?

Yes, everyone who take exogenous androgens eventually get low SHBG. But it seems that some people are more sensitive than others. Here i was taking 50 mg of test propionate per day plus 25 mg of proviron. And nothing else, if you don't count the shit ton of AIs just to feel "normal". Yes, i had great gains for the dosage taken, but also crazy sides. Extreme mood swings, aggression, paranoia. Some day crazy high libido, the day after my dick didn't work.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I didn't know you were taking Proviron. Proviron actually binds to SHBG (more than T). That may be why you feel rough. You may not have a deficiency at all, just too sensitive to that drug. Same with Masteron lowering SHBG and acting somewhat like an AI. Both are going to lower your SHBG. You might find your estrogen sides on the high end. SHBG has the highest for DHT (even over testosterone). So as @Cerberus777 said, start your T off way low at 5-10mg and go from there.

 

[phoenix2]

I didn't know you were taking Proviron. Proviron actually binds to SHBG (more than T). That may be why you feel rough. You may not have a deficiency at all, just too sensitive to that drug. Same with Masteron lowering SHBG and acting somewhat like an AI. Both are going to lower your SHBG. You might find your estrogen sides on the high end. SHBG has the highest for DHT (even over testosterone). So as @Cerberus777 said, start your T off way low at 5-10mg and go from there.

Yes, proviron is the androgen with the greatest affinity for SHBG in absolute. 4.4 times endogenous DHT.
I just don't understand why a lot people run it even at 100 mg ed and no one gets estrogenic sides from it, at least no one that i'm aware of. Proviron has the advantage/downside of rapidity of action. It peaks in 2-3 hours in blood and works rapidly. Coupled with test propionate for me is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Cerberus777]

Interesting. Do you have clinically low (out of range) SHBG completely off cycle? If so, does this precede the use of androgens ("base-line")?

Yes mine are low 4-6 per liter. Normal is 10-30. I've always had some issues I think. Definitely had more sides than a lot of people when I started AAS. When I was younger tren only or winny only wasn't really bad. I only started to pay attention to it when I was older and still cycling.

 

[Type-IIx]

I didn't know you were taking Proviron. Proviron actually binds to SHBG (more than T). That may be why you feel rough. You may not have a deficiency at all, just too sensitive to that drug. Same with Masteron lowering SHBG and acting somewhat like an AI. Both are going to lower your SHBG. You might find your estrogen sides on the high end. SHBG has the highest for DHT (even over testosterone). So as @Cerberus777 said, start your T off way low at 5-10mg and go from there.

The views on SHBG are all interesting and I appreciate the creativity in trying to explain the reasons for particular anecdotes of side effects, but none of this passes any real logical muster. If you think about it for a moment, androgens' binding to SHBG with greater affinity than estrogens cannot overcome the (I would argue, beneficial) AAS-induced reduction in SHBG, thereby increasing very substantially the far greater circulating androgen, particularly free circulating unbound androgen, given supra-physiological androgen dosages. Each molecule of SHBG binds 2 molecules of androgen, so if your SHBG comes back at say 5 mmol/L that binds 10 mmol/L of androgen, assuming literally zero estrogen binding. This sure leaves a lot of androgen in circulation. Thus, the only direct effect of lowered SHBG induced by AAS is an increased effective/unbound androgen-estrogen ratio.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Definitely something to consider. But SHBG has a binding affinity for DHT, testosterone, androstenediol, estradiol, estrone, etc. In both men and women. It would be difficult to quantify with even a modicum of success, what is measurable on the molecular level as we have no way of possibly knowing exactly (or even a rough guesstimate) of how many mmols/L of all these hormones are present at any given time - how many were added exogenously, endogenously, or by way of 1st and 2nd pass. Androgens also tend to aromatase in plasma and high levels of estrogens are a direct side-effect of low SHBG as a condition.

 

[Type-IIx]

Definitely something to consider. But SHBG has a binding affinity for DHT, testosterone, androstenediol, estradiol, estrone, etc. In both men and women. It would be difficult to quantify with even a modicum of success, what is measurable on the molecular level as we have no way of possibly knowing exactly (or even a rough guesstimate) of how many mmols/L of all these hormones are present at any given time - how many were added exogenously, endogenously, or by way of 1st and 2nd pass. Androgens also tend to aromatase in plasma and high levels of estrogens are a direct side-effect of low SHBG as a condition.

Sure we do, bloodwork tells us this. All of the values on bloodwork are concentrations that can readily be interconverted from international or national units to mmol/L. Also, we do know the binding affinities of all the commercially available androgens. You could split hairs over not being able to measure concentrations of winstrol with standard bloodwork (given its pyrazole ring it's not cross-reactive with T for example), but its binding affinity for DHT is virtually non existent (far lower than E2s). Regardless of degree of cross-reactivity of T with any particular androgen, it's clear from inferences of the ratio of crossreactivity, that lowered SHBG, even given DHT-like binding of all androgens in circulation, is FAR outweighed by unbound androgen.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Sure we do, bloodwork tells us this. All of the values on bloodwork are concentrations that can readily be interconverted from international or national units to mmol/L. Also, we do know the binding affinities of all the commercially available androgens. You could split hairs over not being able to measure concentrations of winstrol with standard bloodwork (given its pyrazole ring it's not cross-reactive with T for example), but its binding affinity for DHT is virtually non existent (far lower than E2s). Regardless of degree of cross-reactivity of T with any particular androgen, it's clear from inferences of the ratio of crossreactivity, that lowered SHBG, even given DHT-like binding of all androgens in circulation, is FAR outweighed by unbound androgen.

Bloodwork only tells you what's in plasma at that moment. Not over time. And even that is subject to error. Time would be an unknown variable. SHBG, aromatase, 5alpha, metabolic processes, too many unknown variables. We can figure the concentration and density on perhaps something like a beaker or graduated cylinder in a lab but hardly relates to how a particular person metabolizes a given slew of organic molecules. You going to capture their urine, feces, sweat, and the the amount of each of these biological processes, cellular receptors, chemicals? From infusion to elimination.

 

[Type-IIx]

Bloodwork only tells you what's in plasma at that moment. Not over time. And even that is subject to error. Time would be an unknown variable. SHBG, aromatase, 5alpha, metabolic processes, too many unknown variables. We can figure the concentration and density on perhaps something like a beaker or graduated cylinder in a lab but hardly relates to how a particular person metabolizes a given slew of organic molecules. You going to capture their urine, feces, sweat, and the the amount of each of these biological processes, cellular receptors, chemicals? From infusion to elimination.

Perfect solution fallacy.

 

[phoenix2]

There's another problem that comes with low SHBG.
With low SHBG hepatic clearance of test is increased, because SHBG protect test from enzymatic degradation (mainly oxidative reactions). So you end up "pissing" test quicker. This can impair androgen/estrogen ratio since estrogen have a longer plasma half life than test. Moreover, not only androgen are bound by SHBG, but estrogens too.
So, for example. You inject test propionate and within hours plasma levels of testosterone increases. Then you take proviron, which binds avidly SHBG (it doesn't lower them, it binds them). Now you have a sudden spike of free test which is rapidly aromatized in estradiol and reduced to dht. Not only that, but the fraction of estradiol that was bound to SHBG now gets released, increasing free estradiol levels.
I just don't know why there are people who seems immune to these sides and people like me that are very sensitive.
Whenever i add 25 mg proviron on my test (and AI) regimen i get gyno symptoms and other estrogenic sides within hours.