new thoughts on estrogen control

[DOGGCRAPP]

cont: Agree...its not an across the board thing but Ron you know as well as i there are people running AI's in huge amounts year round no matter what their dosage....because they have been brainwashed that estrogen is bad. I dont want anyone to think my opening paragraphs up above have me thinking that it doesnt matter what someone's estrogen levels get up to.....I just think too many people pound their estrogen levels down with letro, arim, arom etc because thats what they think is supposed to be done

cont: I just dont agree with the reason that Neal Rozier and other docs have given for the reason of gyno......and I would assume virtually any bodybuilder out there would agree with my assessment when he thinks back of when he developed gyno and what he was doing at that time

cont: bodybuilders train a certain way and eat a certain way natural and dont have gyno.....and then they use steroids but still train the same way and eat the same way as they were when natural...and develop gyno......that is undeniable. But these docs want to say gyno is a product of insulin resistance and bad eating only....and that I dont agree with

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

cont: I kind of go by my own intuition and studying Marty...but I find Rouzier interesting in that he isnt scared to be a rebel (on the RBC Sherpa/ people living in Denver comparison with hematocrit) and also with this estrogen debate......its intriguing but I personally disagree with a couple things as stated

(people disagreeing with doctors assesments)

cont: Hence why I put up this post howard......this isnt just one doctor but a consensus among many TRT docs that AI's should not be used even in minute amounts (again IM not saying i agree but its a stand these doctors are making that is going to come over into the bodybuilding world)

(one guy said something about its common knowledge that noone uses AI's)

cont: so nobody in bodybuilding is using arimidex exemestane or letrozole and hasnt for years? Damn everyone disregard this post then.....Nobody is using any of these anymore and never have. Seems like alot of guys in this forum arent getting what the post was about......These TRT doctors NEVER want anyone on AI's......but go to any regular doctor for a test prescription in the United States and they will want you on arimidex with testosterone. I find it hilarious that so many people say "captain obvious" and then say "i only use this much arimidex or exemestane so...."....listen to the video!!! they are saying NEVER use AI's...not even a little bit.

cont: I dont know Nick according to alot of guys on this forum Im telling them news they already knew a decade ago and nobody in history of bodybuilding has used arimidex exemestane or letrozole.....not even a little bit of it which is shocking to me because in PM's to me from alot of these guys it seems like 90% of bodybuilding run an AI with their cycles and their cruises

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

My Counterargument: So I let everyone kind of go off and have their say after my initial comments this morning and i want to put this in for conversation. This whole concept is very very dangerous and im going to tell you why its so dangerous. If these TRT doctors are incorrect they really could cause alot of harm to hundreds of thousands of people especially with arteriosclerosis and heart attacks. Everyone jumps on a bandwagon and I am personally going to reserve judgement on all this and go with my intuition until i see more. Ok how can i do this easily without throwing up a thousand links..... allright here is some easy reading...... by and large most people have made their decisions (myself included) on the various studies (some presented in this link) on keeping estrogen at a number between 21 and 40. https://www.lifeextension.com/magaz...CO3K3gsqq857gZkZs2nIVt93Hkf3otyXMwraoVVmS1DVM
Through trial and error a dosage was determined (usually very very low because it doesnt take much at all ) to find that range. Now with that being said lets not overlook a definitive fact. Do you know who was not using AI's and doing NOTHING whatsoever about estrogen?! Bodybuilders from the golden age up thru around 2000. Arimidex didnt become commercially available til 1996 or so. So these TRT docs are basically telling everyone dont do anything about estrogen and dont use AI's. Well here is a big problem. A boatload of bodybuilders from the golden age ended dying of heart attacks and severe arteriosclerosis at young ages, and Ive always (personally felt) that it was due to them not having any control whatsoever on their estrogen levels during the 70's and 80's.

cont: This is off the top of my head

ED Kawak heart attack
Frank hilldebrand heart attack
Danny Padilla bypass surgery young age,
Boyer Coe massive bypass surgery young age,
Ed Corney heart problems,
Pete Grymkowski heart problems (yea and he was crazy alot of these other guys werent)
Tim Belknap heart attack,
Don Ross heart attack,
Casey Viator heart attack,
Greg Defferro heart attack,
Jorma Raty heart attack,
Denny Gable heart attack

Most of these guys are dead (at younger ages)....and they did not have any control over estrogen at all

So if we are being asked to go back to that methodology of usage (with no control of estrogen at all)......you better be darn sure you know exactly what happened to these individuals outside of no estrogen control

Its a very dangerous concept to bring forward......and it makes me feel very uneasy

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

So before any of this goes against anyones beliefs or dogma and they want to argue i want to ask you a few questions

1) Are you absolutely positive that higher estrogen readings are totally fine and cardio protective? How do you know positively? Are you willing to put peoples lives and potential heart attacks at stake there in that claim?

2) If you are absolutely positive that higher than normal estrogen levels are fine.....then man there is a whole other dilemna here and alot of people in this forum are heading for heart attacks in their 40's 50's and 60's.....because there werent many bodybuilders in the golden age and a great many of them had heart problems in their 40's 50's and if they made it (early 60's)....they werent watching their estrogen levels in any way shape or form.....and they werent using nearly the juice dosages guys do today.....please clue everyone in on what they did wrong back causing heart problems then because if it wasnt going for years with estrogen levels way too high.....we have another problem to worry about alltogether if we are going to go back to that exact kind of usage they were doing.

Personally im going to reserve judgement on this until more information comes forward. I personally use miniscule amounts of aromasin and keep my estrogen readings about 25-45....

 

[danieltx]

Great info DC, thanks for sharing it here.

 

[thebigbus]

I'll say this, I tolerate higher than 40 for estradiol in my patients if they're feeling well. BUT, once it gets over 60 or so range, I do discuss an AI with them. I think there's just much we don't know yet.

As far as comparing these guys on TRT to the bodybuilders that died...well, it's not quite apples to oranges.

But I think being cautious is important. Also, AI's can have their own deleterious effects, so there's a balance. Some can get it dialed in perfect and that's great. I've seen SO many who are on baby doses of arimidex and are tanked and feel awful. But they never needed an AI to begin with.

I think doing as much as possible to get a "normal" estradiol within trt dosing/timing is the best start, and only if estradiol is then still too high, would I throw in an AI.

I've had great success with guys doing their injections every 3.5 days, which is what I do. But even daily can be great...the problem is most "normal" guys (not bodybuilders) don't want to inject daily. So, it's all context.

*not trying to pick a fight*

 

[Kaladryn]

We know two things from AI use in postmenopausal women:

1. Very low estradiol has extremely negative long term side effects.

2. Estradiol is relative to Testosterone, if your T is high, you will need a higher E to avoid side effects, if your T is low you will need a lower E to avoid side effects.

Also, remember estradiol is the messenger that TURNS OFF the HPG axis.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I'll say this, I tolerate higher than 40 for estradiol in my patients if they're feeling well. BUT, once it gets over 60 or so range, I do discuss an AI with them. I think there's just much we don't know yet.

As far as comparing these guys on TRT to the bodybuilders that died...well, it's not quite apples to oranges.

But I think being cautious is important. Also, AI's can have their own deleterious effects, so there's a balance. Some can get it dialed in perfect and that's great. I've seen SO many who are on baby doses of arimidex and are tanked and feel awful. But they never needed an AI to begin with.

I think doing as much as possible to get a "normal" estradiol within trt dosing/timing is the best start, and only if estradiol is then still too high, would I throw in an AI.

I've had great success with guys doing their injections every 3.5 days, which is what I do. But even daily can be great...the problem is most "normal" guys (not bodybuilders) don't want to inject daily. So, it's all context.

*not trying to pick a fight*

I am not disagreeing with you at all. Look at the bold up above. This group of doctors feel even the slightest most minute bit of usage of AI's are detrimental (they even chastise people in one video of using "a little bit") and they believe that having higher levels of estradiol is positive. You and I are on the same train of thought...no AI unless it is deemed absolutely necessary....they believe its never necessary...and i look at that and think "wow you better be absolutely correct if your making a stand in starting this movement to do nothing about estradiol numbers"....because there have been a boatload of people who had very high estradiol numbers for a lengthy amount of time in the 70's and 80's who surely didnt see the cardiovascular protection these doctors are touting.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

This is the video that should have been posted in this thread.

Thebigbus your a TRT doctor...I would like you to watch this and tell me if you agree with it 100% and what your take is

especially the part where he states two dozen doctors following him now are taking supplemental estradiol to get them in a 200-300 range

Because its a big deal.....the leading TRT doctors across the land have jumped on this wagon and I hope for everyones sake they are absolutely correct because we are talking about alot of mens wellbeing here.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hG2tWvDpVQ"]Estrogen In Men: Good, Bad, Indifferent? An Evidence-Based Review w/Dr. Neal Rouzier - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Elvia1023]

Especially in the last 5 or so years I have always used a common sense (basic) approach. As Kal posted estradiol is relative to testosterone. I don't mind my estrogen being high in range especially if my test is high. Obviously no one wants very low estrogen for a variety of reasons. Many bb's over use AI's. I try to use the least amount possible so it tends to be 12.5mg aromasin daily when using higher doses of test. If I am on trt I wouldn't even think of using an AI. Even on approx 500mg test I tend to stay off AI's. Basically I just use if needed going on my blood work (essential). As I always state everyone is different but for me personally if I am in range I don't stress too much about it.

Now this 200-300 range talk I am unsure and as posted let's hope they are right. I could understand it more if someone was on on 2-3g's of test with massive total and free test blood markers. Although he is the expert and spent years studying the subject so it would be wrong for anyone to completely dismiss it. I personally will continue with what I am doing and hope for the best Listening to that video now though.

 

[gungalunga]

So in the video they say gyno is caused by insulin resistance more than estrogen. So if I am on 1000mg of test per week and 50mg of dbol per day and my nipples get itchy and painful and then glandular tissue can be felt under the skin......this was caused by insulin resistance and the aromatizing steroids DIDN'T cause the gyno?

 

[thebigbus]

This is the video that should have been posted in this thread.

Thebigbus your a TRT doctor...I would like you to watch this and tell me if you agree with it 100% and what your take is

especially the part where he states two dozen doctors following him now are taking supplemental estradiol to get them in a 200-300 range

Because its a big deal.....the leading TRT doctors across the land have jumped on this wagon and I hope for everyones sake they are absolutely correct because we are talking about alot of mens wellbeing here.

Estrogen In Men: Good, Bad, Indifferent? An Evidence-Based Review w/Dr. Neal Rouzier - YouTube

Thanks DG, will give this a watch. I haven't heard of this line of thinking in my realm, so am very curious. 200-300 seems insane. I'm a urologist, and with the newer thinking on estradiol and prostate cancer, this sure makes me twitchy.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

So in the video they say gyno is caused by insulin resistance more than estrogen. So if I am on 1000mg of test per week and 50mg of dbol per day and my nipples get itchy and painful and then glandular tissue can be felt under the skin......this was caused by insulin resistance and the aromatizing steroids DIDN'T cause the gyno?

to me that discredits their view right there. I think we've all felt the symptoms creep in when adding something like Dbol or some other very "wet" drug without upping AIs. Its a very causal relationship.

 

[thebigbus]

I watched the video. I "pride" myself in being open to things and not going with the crowd (not typical of physicians), so I'm at least OPEN to what they're saying, but GOOD studies are needed.

I, too, was skeptical about the "insulin resistance" and gyno thing. That makes no sense to me. But hey, maybe there's MORE to gyno than JUST estradiol. There probably is, but who knows. again, studies are needed.

I'll keep a close eye on this over the years. Research is always biased, and studies are never "perfect". none of us should jump on any bandwagon from a single study, for sure. And from a "philosophy of science" perspective, no study can truly show "cause" or "prove" anything. They can more easily disprove things.

We probably DO tend to demonize estradiol more than we should, in the bodybuilding world at least, because we take high doses and then assume a lot of the sides/issues are from the estradiol alone. But seeing as how there are so many other hormonal things going on, we just don't know for sure.

very interesting.

 

[Kaladryn]

I'd just like to chime in and remind everyone that minimizing AI use and not tanking E2 is one of the main things the majority of us have been saying for the last 5+ years. This comes after we all figured out how bad NOT controlling E2 was, 10+ years ago.

This doctor seems to have just stumbled upon the idea that we have known forever, taking E2 too low is bad, if not worse, than having it too high.

 

[thebigbus]

I'd just like to chime in and remind everyone that minimizing AI use and not tanking E2 is one of the main things the majority of us have been saying for the last 5+ years. This comes after we all figured out how bad NOT controlling E2 was, 10+ years ago.

This doctor seems to have just stumbled upon the idea that we have known forever, taking E2 too low is bad, if not worse, than having it too high.

If there's one thing I've learned being an MD (there's a lot, LoL), it's that the "medical world" is pretty entrenched in their beliefs, even when they're wrong, and it takes a LONG time to change things. I'm appalled at the misinformation out there that is being spewed by doctors, NP's, etc.

Of course, this applies to most areas of life. I love the bodybuilding world for the fact that we all usually more progressive in our thinking and willing to change what we do. It's not always "scientific", but more pragmatic, but that can be fine.

Kinda like how the "pump" training has known to work well, and people dismissed it for a long time, but now that studies are being done, there is data that metabolite training has a special place in hypertrophy. So bodybuilders are often "ahead of the curve" simply because they're willing to experiment and then use what "Works". Which is what science does as well...it is beneficial in "building a better toaster" - even when it can't actually give us the ultimate "why" of things (the philosophy part).

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

I'd just like to chime in and remind everyone that minimizing AI use and not tanking E2 is one of the main things the majority of us have been saying for the last 5+ years. This comes after we all figured out how bad NOT controlling E2 was, 10+ years ago.

This doctor seems to have just stumbled upon the idea that we have known forever, taking E2 too low is bad, if not worse, than having it too high.

it definitely FEELS worse to tank E2 no matter your AAS dose. On the other hand it doesnt really feel that bad to run up to 150-200 E2 as long as you are injecting 1+ gram/week. Been there, done that. I'm no doctor so I don't pretend to understand the damage I did to myself when I was a younger idiot.

I avoid AIs simply because the side effects are too unruly for me to deal with. I'd rather run low dose test with no AI and add primo/GH for an anabolic environment. AIs and nolvadex are anti-cancer drugs primarily, unfortunately the people with cancer taking them just have to deal with the horrible side effects of crashing and blocking estrogen. I'm a healthy man in the prime of my life. I take testosterone/IGF/GH/primo, not anti-cancer drugs

 

[fitzchivalry]

I'd just like to chime in and remind everyone that minimizing AI use and not tanking E2 is one of the main things the majority of us have been saying for the last 5+ years. This comes after we all figured out how bad NOT controlling E2 was, 10+ years ago.

This doctor seems to have just stumbled upon the idea that we have known forever, taking E2 too low is bad, if not worse, than having it too high.

I believe he was one of the early proponents of going back to not lowering estrogen too much or at all and now pushing towards even supplementing with it/going extreme in the opposite direction so it isnt a new concept to him but the latter is.

 

[hemipower]

For properly dosed TRT I think generally no AI should be needed...and I have been without one for a year. Your body will make the estro it needs and maintain a proper ratio, but the trick to it is SMALL DAILY dosing to as closely as possible imitate your natural daily pulse of test. Not a big weekly (or even twice weekly) bolus dose...level climbs high then falls off...then repeat...estro does the same BEHIND it...so as test lowers estro is still raised, etc.

A short and "medium" length ester blend (~50mg prop and 150-200mg enanth) seems to work best... test shot each night at 25-30mg of the blend. Feel great. I've even chased the dose up to 50mg a day for a few months no AI and no issues. But that was more of a trial (blast) and not something I would do long term. After this I dropped off to 40mg/day for a few weeks then back to 30mg long term. Honestly on 30mg daily my estro was still around 20! I was on Calcium D Glucarate only and just a single 500mg each night so minimal effect. I've seen some claims that daily cialis use lowers estro some also, but not certain this is true/plays a role for me.

I think without the trough in test levels you feel fine. In an otherwise healthy person...I don't see an issue with T in the 1200-1300 range and estro in the 50s.

Now a bodybuilder on supraphysiological doses of test (500+ mg test weekly or 2000+ ng/dL total Test) I think is anyone's guess...likely not HEALTHY which anything in excess generally speaking isn't ideal for health. Estro crushed with too much AI has for SURE been a problem in my past and I spent quite some time adjusting until I got things close to right which was 100mg test 3x a week and 1/2mg arim twice a week...the daily dose and a little lower total without an AI is significantly better.

 

[thebigbus]

Not *directly* related, but you guys may find this interesting. as a urologist I definitely do. I deal with men all the time on androgen deprivation therapy who have awful side effects, and bone loss.

This paper talks about supplementing with estradiol for these men and it goes into some of the helpful actions of estradiol. Very interesting.

https://erc.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/erc/24/8/ERC-17-0153.xml