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New to HCG Usage

  • Thread starter Deleted member 106824
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Thebigone

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Thebigone I know you mentioned the HCG should be fine especially if it hasn't been reconstituted but I wanted to clarify, is it supposed to be all stuck at the bottom before reconstitution? I assumed it would be loose upon shaking but its stuck down there.




Wow, huge jump in E2. I'm guessing you weren't on an AI? It seems like an AI is almost required for someone using HCG.

Did you notice any difference in how you felt?

According to the reference ranges, my 80mg TRT + 1mg Adex keeps my free test pretty much right at the top and sometimes over the range so I would imagine with HCG it could get quite high.

At the water and let it sit in the fridge for 24 hours then gently swirl it until everything dissolves
 

Honu

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Lmao, thanks for the feedback.

I have to say though I imagine the changes you're experiencing are more from the huge increase in testosterone dosage. I don't know what your test levels were from 2 pumps of androgel per day but 200mg Test Cyp + 1 pump androgel per day + 240iu HCG daily will result in a HUGE increase in testosterone compared to what you were at before. Hell 200mg test cyp alone would have me at about 1500ng/dl so you could be around 2000ng/dl with that protocol.

Have you had bloodwork done before and after?

Here are some of my bloodwork values (the ones that matters to us, lol) while on 2 pumps of Andro and prior to the cyp

PSA = 0.77
Hematocrit = 46
Cholesterol = 140
RBC = 5.18
Estradiol = 30
Cortisol = 12.9
Test = 495

My next labs is due late August to check my sperm count as well as bloodwork to see my above values while on cyp and HCG. I didnt know HCG raised T-levels significantly, lol. But I agree that with the cyp and Andro should push me past 1200ng/dl but I hope the HCG doesn't make me go too overboard. If thats the case I'll drop the gel. However, TBH, I've done many cycles in my lifetime and my current regiment of cyp/gel/hcg is not that overwhelming. The difference in my appearance will not make my friends look twice and say "oh shit he's on the gear again" and my strength gains aren't over the top..at best, maybe a 10% strength increase compared to 50% while on a legit cycle.
 
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Love_to_Bodybuild

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Yes it can alter testosterone, estrogen, progesterone and other hormones and blood tests.

Small vials are fine you just at the right amount of Bacteriostatic water and does it several times a week and lower doses is best.

Reasoning says its best on trt doses when testes get bigger. That said when going to a doctor for lab results, I think its important not to skew labs up , esp if doctor is very basic , in regards to trt.

Wondering how long after discontinuing hcg would test, estrogen, progesterone, take to go back to normal ?

I would think a low dose serm may be a good idea on hcg, just in case of aromatization?
 
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Thebigone

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Reasoning says its best on trt doses when testes get bigger. That said when going to a doctor for lab results, I think its important not to skew labs up , esp if doctor is very basic , in regards to trt.

Wondering how long after discontinuing hcg would test, estrogen, progesterone, take to go back to normal ?

I would think a low dose serm may be a good idea on hcg, just in case of aromatization?

Not sure but my main reasoning for using it other than increasing testicular size is the benefits of luteinizing hormone for brain function.
 
D

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Here are some of my bloodwork values (the ones that matters to us, lol) while on 2 pumps of Andro and prior to the cyp

PSA = 0.77
Hematocrit = 46
Cholesterol = 140
RBC = 5.18
Estradiol = 30
Cortisol = 12.9
Test = 495

My next labs is due late August to check my sperm count as well as bloodwork to see my above values while on cyp and HCG. I didnt know HCG raised T-levels significantly, lol. But I agree that with the cyp and Andro should push me past 1200ng/dl but I hope the HCG doesn't make me go too overboard. If thats the case I'll drop the gel. However, TBH, I've done many cycles in my lifetime and my current regiment of cyp/gel/hcg is not that overwhelming. The difference in my appearance will not make my friends look twice and say "oh shit he's on the gear again" and my strength gains aren't over the top..at best, maybe a 10% strength increase compared to 50% while on a legit cycle.

Yea I agree it's nothing like a legit cycle, but still well above where you were at before and above normal levels. If you remember, I'd love to see your blood work in august


Reasoning says its best on trt doses when testes get bigger. That said when going to a doctor for lab results, I think its important not to skew labs up , esp if doctor is very basic , in regards to trt.

Wondering how long after discontinuing hcg would test, estrogen, progesterone, take to go back to normal ?

I would think a low dose serm may be a good idea on hcg, just in case of aromatization?

Why low dose serm over low dose AI? I'd rather attack the high estrogen directly.
 

Love_to_Bodybuild

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Yea I agree it's nothing like a legit cycle, but still well above where you were at before and above normal levels. If you remember, I'd love to see your blood work in august




Why low dose serm over low dose AI? I'd rather attack the high estrogen directly.

I used use ai's only . I think its still good to have on hand, jst in case. That said, ai's seem to kill my joints just about every time. also ai's are bad for cholesterol levels while serms are good for them

Serms work for gyno and healthier
 
D

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I used use ai's only . I think its still good to have on hand, jst in case. That said, ai's seem to kill my joints just about every time. also ai's are bad for cholesterol levels while serms are good for them

Serms work for gyno and healthier

Not sure if I would necessarily agree SERMs are always healthier.

My HDL did go down quite a bit (from mid 70s to mid 50s) when I went on 2mg of arimidex per week, but when I went down to 1mg per week my HDL went back up to mid 70s again.
 

Love_to_Bodybuild

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Not sure if I would necessarily agree SERMs are always healthier.

My HDL did go down quite a bit (from mid 70s to mid 50s) when I went on 2mg of arimidex per week, but when I went down to 1mg per week my HDL went back up to mid 70s again.


were you doing anything else to contribute to higher hdl levels from the 2 to 1 mgs or arimidex?
 

GettingBackIn

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I've had prescription hcg and sometimes it was all stuck in the bottom like you're describing, sometimes it was looser. It didn't make a difference.

What I think is most important, and most doctors don't tell their patients this, when you add water you shouldn't shake it. You need to swirl it until it's mixed. The hormone is very weak and you can actually break the bonds in the hormone by shaking the vial vigorously.

My doctor said the same is true for growth hormone too.
 
D

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I've had prescription hcg and sometimes it was all stuck in the bottom like you're describing, sometimes it was looser. It didn't make a difference.

What I think is most important, and most doctors don't tell their patients this, when you add water you shouldn't shake it. You need to swirl it until it's mixed. The hormone is very weak and you can actually break the bonds in the hormone by shaking the vial vigorously.

My doctor said the same is true for growth hormone too.

Thanks for the tip. Right now all the HCG is sitting, not reconstituted, in my apartment which is around 73-75 degrees. I'm hoping it will be good sitting there for a while as I don't plan to use it for at least a few months.
 

Swifto

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I did three cycles back in 2003-2005. During the cycles are used 500iu 2x/wk

In 2006 I went on HRT and used that protocol the entire time including when doing cycles. I used to do 500iu 2x/wk but cut it down to 250iu 3-4x/wk as I feel that will minimize estrogen even though I didn’t really notice any negatives from estrogen. Dr. Crisler mentioned somewhere that hCG should not be used over 500 IU in a single dose or it can do more damage than good. Something about desensitizing leydig cells. Can’t find that article though.

You'll get conflicting views on that. Dr. Michael Scally says leydig cell desensitisation isn't seen in humans and is only seen in rats even at massive 5000-10,000 doses in a single shot.

I've always opted for 500-1000ius shots if you haven't had any testes stimulation directly from HCG or HMG for long persions, even 2000ius for a few shots. Then down to 250ius twice per week, some may need 500ius.
 

Swifto

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Thanks for the tip. Right now all the HCG is sitting, not reconstituted, in my apartment which is around 73-75 degrees. I'm hoping it will be good sitting there for a while as I don't plan to use it for at least a few months.

Put it in the fridge even if its not reconstituted.
 
D

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were you doing anything else to contribute to higher hdl levels from the 2 to 1 mgs or arimidex?

Here is on just 80mg TRT (5/5/17)
Cholesterol, Total: 184 (125-200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol: 77 (> 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL: 2.4 (< 5.0)
LDL Cholesterol: 97 (<130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 48 (<150 mg/dL)


Here is on 80mg TRT + 2mg adex (8/30/17)
Cholesterol, Total: 167 (125-200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol: 54 (> 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL: 3.1 (< 5.0)
LDL Cholesterol: 98 (<130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 64 (<150 mg/dL)


Here is 80mg TRT + 1mg adex (12/6/17)
Cholesterol, Total: 225 (125-200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol: 71 (> 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL: 3.2 (< 5.0)
LDL Cholesterol: 139 (<130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 59 (<150 mg/dL)

Here is 80mg TRT + 1mg adex (1/12/18)
Cholesterol, Total: 181 (125-200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol: 67 (> 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL: 2.7 (< 5.0)
LDL Cholesterol: 100 (<130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 57 (<150 mg/dL)

Here is 80mg TRT + 1mg adex (2/15/18)
Cholesterol, Total: 205 (125-200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol: 62 (> 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL: 3.3 (< 5.0)
LDL Cholesterol: 129 (<130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 45 (<150 mg/dL)


Here is 80mg TRT + 1mg adex (4/18/18)
Cholesterol, Total: 182 (125-200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol: 75 (> 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL: 2.4 (< 5.0)
LDL Cholesterol: 98 (<130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 31 (<150 mg/dL)


Here is 80mg TRT + 1mg adex (6/6/18)
Cholesterol, Total: 198 (125-200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol: 66 (> 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL: 3.0 (< 5.0)
LDL Cholesterol: 118 (<130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 50 (<150 mg/dL)


If you consider HDL, LDL, and triglycerides it's not quite as good as when I wasn't on any AI. If anything I'm wondering if it's partly responsible for raising my LDL. Diet and cardio is generally constant in terms of the type of food I eat and amount of cardio I do.
 

Thebigone

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You'll get conflicting views on that. Dr. Michael Scally says leydig cell desensitisation isn't seen in humans and is only seen in rats even at massive 5000-10,000 doses in a single shot.

I've always opted for 500-1000ius shots if you haven't had any testes stimulation directly from HCG or HMG for long persions, even 2000ius for a few shots. Then down to 250ius twice per week, some may need 500ius.

Mine have been atrophied for years so I may try a few higher doses to see what it does. Thanks
 
D

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Put it in the fridge even if its not reconstituted.

I was thinking of doing that. It mentions that before its reconstituted it should be at ~50-70, but I guess there's no issue having it colder than that in the fridge?


You'll get conflicting views on that. Dr. Michael Scally says leydig cell desensitisation isn't seen in humans and is only seen in rats even at massive 5000-10,000 doses in a single shot.

I've always opted for 500-1000ius shots if you haven't had any testes stimulation directly from HCG or HMG for long persions, even 2000ius for a few shots. Then down to 250ius twice per week, some may need 500ius.

Dr. Scally may be who I was thinking of who Dr. McClain was talking with.

Though even if leydig cell desensitization is a myth, that doesn't negate the other potential sides from too much HCG mentioned elsewhere in this thread (mainly the potentially high estrogen effects)
 

Sides

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Dr. Scally may be who I was thinking of who Dr. McClain was talking with.

Though even if leydig cell desensitization is a myth, that doesn't negate the other potential sides from too much HCG mentioned elsewhere in this thread (mainly the potentially high estrogen effects)

The high estrogen effects of too much HCG are what I believe to be my problem at the moment.

I am 50 years old, and have been using test and other steroids for over 26 years now. My wife and I would like to have one more child, so since December, I have been on my own fertility program of 200mg Test Cyp per week, 50mg Proviron per day, 500 iu HCG per day, 25-50iu HMG per day, and 50mg Clomid per day.

This has successfully brought my sperm levels up from zero, to 4 million per ml, to over 7 million per ml at the most recent semen analysis on June 20. So my protocol is working, although of course it could certainly be improved.

However, I have been suffering from lack of libido and ED issues, which I believe to be caused by high estrogen from the HCG (and admittedly, perhaps too much testosterone as well, although I had much better libido when I used to take 400mg Test Cyp per week. However, right now fertility is the main concern, so I thought it was wise to reduce test levels to what puts me at the top or slightly over the top of the range, 1014 and 944 ng/dL on the last two blood tests with a reference range of 264-916. FT was 21 pg/mL on a range from 7.2 to 24, E2 (non-sensitive) was 58.3 PG/ML on a range from 27.1 to 52.2).

Now I have started going to a fertility specialist to see if he can further improve the results, and his two big ideas were to decrease my testosterone from 200mg to 100mg per week, and to increase the HCG up to 3000iu three times per week, much more than I am taking right now.

I know that there is research indicating that higher levels of HCG do increase sperm counts more than lower levels of HCG.

However, my concern is that the higher amounts of HCG will further increase my estrogen levels, although that would partially be lessened by taking less testosterone per week that can aromatize into estrogen.

I don't want to suffer from more libido and ED problems caused by too much estrogen, although right now fertility is the primary focus, so I have to do whatever leads to higher sperm levels. So I am in a bit of a quandary as to whether to take the fertility specialist's recommendations, or whether just to stick with my own program of 500iu per day that has worked reasonably well for me so far.

So my big question is, do higher amounts of HCG really increase sperm counts much more than lower steady consistent amounts of 250-500iu per day?
 

Rogue

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Your fertility doc is onto something.
He wants to lower your testosterone as its acting as an adversity to your body wanting to produce more sperm.
At that dose of 300 e3d you should get a good LH stimulation to increase your sperm count.
Libido and ED will have to be addressed separately. If you are certain they are lacking due to elevate E, then try an AI, it is these very circumstances they where designed for.
If your sperm count increase, but your ED and libido don't, you may have to use a PDE5 inhibitor to get the mission accomplished before you go back to your routine.
Has your physician recommended anything for the elevated E?
 

Sides

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Your fertility doc is onto something.
He wants to lower your testosterone as its acting as an adversity to your body wanting to produce more sperm.
At that dose of 300 e3d you should get a good LH stimulation to increase your sperm count.
Libido and ED will have to be addressed separately. If you are certain they are lacking due to elevate E, then try an AI, it is these very circumstances they where designed for.
If your sperm count increase, but your ED and libido don't, you may have to use a PDE5 inhibitor to get the mission accomplished before you go back to your routine.
Has your physician recommended anything for the elevated E?

My fertility specialist (urologist) has said that we will try decreasing the elevated E by lowering my testosterone from 200mg to 100mg, so that there is less test to aromatize. If I still have estrogen issues, he said that he can prescribe Femara (letrozole), as he has had more success with that than with Arimidex.

I am more familiar with Arimidex, and considered taking it, but I don't want to crash my E2 from taking too much Arimidex, which would lead to further health and ED issues. So whatever AI I end up taking, I will have to monitor my levels carefully with bloodwork.

I have taken PDE5 inhibitors for years (Cialis, Viagra) to help with ED issues, but with the current problems they don't work well enough anymore. I have taken PGE-1 (alprostadil) to overcome the ED problems, and my urologist now prescribes me Tri-Mix. But of course those only work to fix the erection issues, not the low libido issues.
 

Rogue

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Letrozole is stronger than Anatrazole, its a good product that will require proper dosing.
Hopefully at 100mg, you won't need an AI and your E will fall into range, might take some time, but at 100mg, if your T:E ratios are correct you will get your libido back.
If you where not trying to cultivate your sperms I would say dab a little DHT cream on your scrotum... That will negate the E and get your help with your desire.
If your going to try something like that, do inform your physician.
 

Sides

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Letrozole is stronger than Anatrazole, its a good product that will require proper dosing.
Hopefully at 100mg, you won't need an AI and your E will fall into range, might take some time, but at 100mg, if your T:E ratios are correct you will get your libido back.
If you where not trying to cultivate your sperms I would say dab a little DHT cream on your scrotum... That will negate the E and get your help with your desire.
If your going to try something like that, do inform your physician.

Yeah, I do realize that 200mg of testosterone is actually much more than most humans would ever naturally produce, and that 100mg should bring me back to normal levels, where hopefully my hormone ratios will balance out. I would prefer to keep my test levels at the top of the range, but I do realize that many men actually feel better and have better erections and libido on a lower amount of test with their levels at mid-range.

It's just that as a former competitive bodybuilder and long-time steroid user, I feel resistant to dropping my dose below 200mg, which already feels like a very low dose of test to me. I always felt great taking 400-500mg test per week. But fertility is the big priority now, so whatever it takes to get the sperm levels up and the job done, that will be the right thing to do.

100mg it is.
 

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