Optimal dose mg/kg is it a thing?

[TeaMan]

What are you’re opinion on dosage per kg of body weight when it comes to maximizing muscle building effect vs. minimizing potential side effects?

Kuba Cielen had a yt series right now and they are talking about 15mg/kg are more then enough to bring up maximal potential. Any thoughts?

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

I think it’s bullshit. It’s just saying take this amount and check out this scientific looking formula I used to determine your optimal dosage.

Smoke and mirrors.

 

[Gunsmith]

That makes as much sense as saying that each person should use "X" amount of carbs to grow or "X" amount of sets and reps

 

[Type-IIx]

Dosing schemes in terms of body mass (m^2) for the endogenously secreted peptides like GH and insulin has a rationale. What you're describing, for AAS, makes no sense and there's no magical optimization function for this shit. Voodoo.

 

[b-boy]

Author L Rea also had a figure in his building the perfect beast.

This topic of 15mg per KG for me would be around 1500 (me @ 97kg) which is a very optimal dose for me. If someone can't seriously grow off 1500mg at 97kg they have SERIOUS PROBLEMS. Just my opinion.
Hell I have 37yrs of training under my belt.

Just speaking for me personally that figure is ON POINT

 

[juggy38]

I think that like victor black and Broderick Chavez’s “dose test 2-3mg/kg” is a good ballpark figure to START and not have terrible estro DHT problems.

But I view that as like those online macro calculations. They are decently accurate, and a good day 1 starting point. Then you have to use your own feedback and Brain.

Just like a coach prescribed you 80 sets or 100 sets a week. I remember bleu Taylor started me off 100 sets a week,
And I was trashed. Fucking annihilated. Then we used feedback and my bitching to drop down to 80 sets and change my intensity

 

[pickapeck]

Take any magic number, lets say 5 mg/kg. 90 kg (198 lbs) human the dose would be 450 mg. A 110 kg (242 lbs) human the dose would be 550 mg. There is a 44 lb difference between those two humans. Practically and anecdotally, do you really think there is a difference that 100 mg/w would make? Practically and anecdotally the difference in effective dose really relies upon sensitivity to the positive and negative effects of the particular drugs. The best way to the personal most effective dose is through careful note taking and blood work.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

Take any magic number, lets say 5 mg/kg. 90 kg (198 lbs) human the dose would be 450 mg. A 110 kg (242 lbs) human the dose would be 550 mg. There is a 44 lb difference between those two humans. Practically and anecdotally, do you really think there is a difference that 100 mg/w would make? Practically and anecdotally the difference in effective dose really relies upon sensitivity to the positive and negative effects of the particular drugs. The best way to the personal most effective dose is through careful note taking and blood work.

exactly, well said!!!

 

[Type-IIx]

Take any magic number, lets say 5 mg/kg. 90 kg (198 lbs) human the dose would be 450 mg. A 110 kg (242 lbs) human the dose would be 550 mg. There is a 44 lb difference between those two humans. Practically and anecdotally, do you really think there is a difference that 100 mg/w would make? Practically and anecdotally the difference in effective dose really relies upon sensitivity to the positive and negative effects of the particular drugs. The best way to the personal most effective dose is through careful note taking and blood work.

Very well said, I would also add that the calculus further depends upon personal risk tolerance, e.g. the fatal cardiovascular risk could/should be considered (there's a tabulated grid in Book on Steroids), and tolerability of the negative effects may change depending upon the objective or external reward, be it a pro card versus zilch.

And there's limitless murkiness in actually quantifying these things (e.g., Book on Steroids makes some inferences about AAS.. in practice there's slin, and everything else), and the data we have is a collection of trials of 1 rather than directly quantifiable data. It's pseudo-scientific to assign arbitrary values for any "optimal" formula.

 

[buck]

15mg/kg seems a little high to me. The difference i got from 11 as opposed to 15 was very small at best.

 

[supermofo]

Not intentionally trying to offend anyone but in my experience and opinion, this type of "special formula" BS is just that, BS! It bothers me that there are many young and easily influenced people that are probably jumping straight on those dosages without even trying something conservative first, just because a so called expert "says it's so".

My personal take on it: Way back when I did use super supplements, I could never even come close to handling those type of dosages and I was not a small man. At around 5' 8"-9" I was 265 and fairly lean. I was a powerlifter and I felt and grew/gained best off of dosages between 500-750mg/wk (depending on the compounds used) and that was after years of off and on use. There is NO WAY I could've even come close to handling 1,800mg/wk EVER! I looked like an in shape offseason bodybuilder most of the time and would drop below 10% body fat briefly for summer vacations... I could still look massive while getting lean on just 150mg Test Cyp, 50mg Drostanolone Prop, and 50mg Tren Acetate PER WEEK (not a typo, 250mg/wk) divided into small daily doses. I would still maintain or maybe even gain a little strength off this while getting ready for the beach at the same time. I felt "off" if I ventured north of 750mg/wk in dosage and my body, well being, and performance would all suffer when I tried it. I know there are many that can and do go well beyond that with their dosages and somehow gain monsterous size and strength but those people probably have superior genetics for bodybuilding that I don't posses and neither does most of the population that are into what we are into here on PM...

Off topic: Not a joke but kind of humorous because I thought it was a joke and laughed when he told me. I know this man, 50 years old ,6' tall, around 240lbs, in decent shape, and he told me that he had only done 1 cycle his entire life. I said WOW, that's impressive. He said yeah, I started that cycle back in 1995 and still running it. I laughed and he said no, I'm serious, once I started it, I never came off. He has been on Test and Tren (and other compounds) for over 22 years straight and still going. He's never competed in anything and has never trained his legs. True story...

 

[emeric delczeg]

I think it’s bullshit. It’s just saying take this amount and check out this scientific looking formula I used to determine your optimal dosage.

Smoke and mirrors.

 

[Elvia1023]

Author L Rea also had a figure in his building the perfect beast.

This topic of 15mg per KG for me would be around 1500 (me @ 97kg) which is a very optimal dose for me. If someone can't seriously grow off 1500mg at 97kg they have SERIOUS PROBLEMS. Just my opinion.
Hell I have 37yrs of training under my belt.

Just speaking for me personally that figure is ON POINT

The figure may be on point but it's still bullshit. I think it's obvious why such a system is complete nonsense and others above have explained some of the reasons why. Does that mean the final outcome of what they say is completely wrong... not at all. There are simply too many variables (most importantly genetic response to the specific compound/aas) and to have a one set formula for dosing is flawed at best. I should add I completely agree if you can't grow on 1500mg (or 1000mg) something is way off but it's besides the point.

Lot's of guys have different genetic limits (potential size/muscle) and it takes different amounts to get to that limit for everyone. Whilst the majority could probably get close to that limit within a certain range of drugs (1.5g for example) it doesn't prove a one set formula for maximizing muscle whilst minimizing side effects. Age is also an important factor as well and I find most older guys can't take what they used to do. Side effects are also so varied it's impossible to give a generalized formula. There are guys who love 1.5g test and the more the better and others who feel horrible on 500mg and the same for 150mg or 50mg adrol etc.

 

[b-boy]

The figure may be on point but it's still bullshit. I think it's obvious why such a system is complete nonsense and others above have explained some of the reasons why. Does that mean the final outcome of what they say is completely wrong... not at all. There are simply too many variables (most importantly genetic response to the specific compound/aas) and to have a one set formula for dosing is flawed at best. I should add I completely agree if you can't grow on 1500mg (or 1000mg) something is way off but it's besides the point.

Lot's of guys have different genetic limits (potential size/muscle) and it takes different amounts to get to that limit for everyone. Whilst the majority could probably get close to that limit within a certain range of drugs (1.5g for example) it doesn't prove a one set formula for maximizing muscle whilst minimizing side effects. Age is also an important factor as well and I find most older guys can't take what they used to do. Side effects are also so varied it's impossible to give a generalized formula. There are guys who love 1.5g test and the more the better and others who feel horrible on 500mg and the same for 150mg or 50mg adrol etc.

Not arguing that's its not a formula to follow (bullshit). Just saying that it's about correct for me (an IFBB pro). You also have to realize the person saying this I'm sure is not referring to normal gym rats and state level bodybuilders (99.5% of this board). Still not defending his theory just saying he isn't referring to you guys (your type isn't his clientele he works with and referring to I'm sure)

 

[b-boy]

Not arguing that's its not a formula to follow (bullshit). Just saying that it's about correct for me (an IFBB pro). You also have to realize the person saying this I'm sure is not referring to normal gym rats and state level bodybuilders (99.5% of this board). Still not defending his theory just saying he isn't referring to you guys (your type isn't his clientele he works with and referring to I'm sure)

Take his " theory" with a grain of salt and realize I'm sure he is referring to top national level and pro bodybuilders, in that aspect that formula is not far fetched.

 

[hawkmoon]

Author L Rea also had a figure in his building the perfect beast.

This topic of 15mg per KG for me would be around 1500 (me @ 97kg) which is a very optimal dose for me. If someone can't seriously grow off 1500mg at 97kg they have SERIOUS PROBLEMS. Just my opinion.
Hell I have 37yrs of training under my belt.

Just speaking for me personally that figure is ON POINT

I must agree with this.

I think 1.5g should be enough for anyone who has the rest of their diet and training dialed in.
The genetic outliers on either side of the bell curve will have different results, and those on the lower end will not get better result with higher dosages, just more side effects - now or in the future.

I have helped friends with everything from diet to training to AAS usage.
One is a very close friend who just didn't respond to higher doses. He does DC under Paul Carter and eats like a horse.
The hormones (the same source as I) just spilled over into acne, water retention, anxiety, and other issues. He no longer uses.

 

[Elvia1023]

Not arguing that's its not a formula to follow (bullshit). Just saying that it's about correct for me (an IFBB pro). You also have to realize the person saying this I'm sure is not referring to normal gym rats and state level bodybuilders (99.5% of this board). Still not defending his theory just saying he isn't referring to you guys (your type isn't his clientele he works with and referring to I'm sure)

Whilst he talks about advanced protocols the whole premise of the book is how you can build the perfect beast from next to nothing so his writing applies to everyone. He even has pictures of himself at around 120 pounds and upwards through the years. A Rea whilst he got big and freaky looking was no IFBB Pro either. The whole book is about how the average person can become a beast (like he did). In the book his dosing protocols are also based on novice, intermediate, advanced and very advanced. It's not directed at IFBB Pro's.

Now obviously his very advanced protocol (above 1750mg per week) would be for huge guys but again that doesn't have to mean IFBB Pro. There are plenty of guys out there who are big and lean who could never be ifbb pro's due to crap structure/shape etc. To me being a beast (what L Rea refers) doesn't just have to mean winning a bodybuilding show but is merely about being as big and lean as you can. L.Rea actually lists advanced as 240-265 and very advanced as 265 and up with both being under 12% body fat.

I have personally always thought around 1.5g total is a good amount for someone to get really big/lean but that goes for everyone. Drug response can vary massively between people (including pro's) but still that is plenty of drugs. Everyone is a different height but me personally for 5ft8 at 240 and 6ft at 260 (etc), I think 1.5g is more than enough if everything else is in place. Plus let's not even get into compounds used and the difference in strength between different AAS as that is a huge factor regarding total dose.

 

[b-boy]

Whilst he talks about advanced protocols the whole premise of the book is how you can build the perfect beast from next to nothing so his writing applies to everyone. He even has pictures of himself at around 120 pounds and upwards through the years. A Rea whilst he got big and freaky looking was no IFBB Pro either. The whole book is about how the average person can become a beast (like he did). In the book his dosing protocols are also based on novice, intermediate, advanced and very advanced. It's not directed at IFBB Pro's.

Now obviously his very advanced protocol (above 1750mg per week) would be for huge guys but again that doesn't have to mean IFBB Pro. There are plenty of guys out there who are big and lean who could never be ifbb pro's due to crap structure/shape etc. To me being a beast (what L Rea refers) doesn't just have to mean winning a bodybuilding show but is merely about being as big and lean as you can. L.Rea actually lists advanced as 240-265 and very advanced as 265 and up with both being under 12% body fat.

I have personally always thought around 1.5g total is a good amount for someone to get really big/lean but that goes for everyone. Drug response can vary massively between people (including pro's) but still that is plenty of drugs. Everyone is a different height but me personally for 5ft8 at 240 and 6ft at 260 (etc), I think 1.5g is more than enough if everything else is in place. Plus let's not even get into compounds used and the difference in strength between different AAS as that is a huge factor regarding total dose.

My post wasn't referring to L. Rea, it was referring to Kuba! L Rea doesn't coach bodybuilders (did a few guys YEARS AGO). I'm talking about Kuba who the thread is about, Kuba coach pros, Olympians, national level guys and that is the gist of his business and who he is referencing using that formula, not the couple of state level guys he has or certainly no gym rats. All I'm saying (not saying I agree completely with his formula) is that you need to realize he is talking about HIGH level guys which I'm saying that his formula is pretty correct FOR ME PERSONALLY.

 

[Elvia1023]

My post wasn't referring to L. Rea, it was referring to Kuba! L Rea doesn't coach bodybuilders (did a few guys YEARS AGO). I'm talking about Kuba who the thread is about, Kuba coach pros, Olympians, national level guys and that is the gist of his business and who he is referencing using that formula, not the couple of state level guys he has or certainly no gym rats. All I'm saying (not saying I agree completely with his formula) is that you need to realize he is talking about HIGH level guys which I'm saying that his formula is pretty correct FOR ME PERSONALLY.

Kuba trains my mate. Not that it matters but most of his clients are not top level competitors. I could post about his doses but no point going on about things and as you stated his formula is correct for you.

 

[luki7788]

I'll be honest as always - I know Kuba personally and the truth is that his advice and recommendations are just like the couch with whom he is now. previously he was at jp so he recommended to everyone what he wrote to jp, later at stefan kinz and a similar story and now he is fascinated with what jewett promotes, so he does analogous and recommends to everyone exactly what is at john's academy. In some time he will change his mind again ... forgive me, but for me, someone who changes their views by 180 degrees 3x during the year is not a trustworthy person