PCT Question

[jman2129]

I am going to try and word this correctly so those viewing do not think I have not done research on the subject of PCT.

Upcoming cycle is as follows... (3rd cycle)

Test-E @750mg EW for 13 weeks
D-bol @ 30mg ED weeks 1-4
D-bol @ 30mg ED weeks 12-15
Arimidex @ .5mg EOD weeks 1-15
HCG @ 250iu x2 EW weeks 4-15

PCT for my last two cycles was toremifene dosed @ 120/90/60/30. Unfortunate for me, toremifene has disappeared from reputable suppliers. I am now forced to explore different avenues. I have spent the last few weeks searching this forum as well as many others for a concrete protocol but am still left with questions. Most of the protocols I have come across include nolva and clomid for a cycle similar to mine.

I do not want to include clomid. The side effects worry me a bit.

I would like to just do a nolva only PCT. Something like...

40/40/20/20/10 starting week 16.

I know PCT is a subject that has been touched many times for many years but I would appreciate any input members would be willing to put forth aimed at my particular cycle.

I am taking this route of gaining information because I am used to using toremifene and I know how it affects my recovery but have not used nolva or clomid.

I don't know if this is neccessary but here are my stats...

5'9"
226lbs
~11% BF
35yrs old
Training for approx. 11 years.

Thanks

 

[Quad-smack]

Why a heavily aromatizing AAS like * in conjunction with an aromatase inhibitor?

 

[jman2129]

I have used an AI on my previous cycles because of the water retention and to stave off gyno. I know the extra water helps with strength and over all gains, but I would rather stay some what lean while on. Also I like to avoid the increase in blood pressure due to water retention (I also follow a low sodium diet while on). I like to use arimidex because I know how my body reacts to it and I can adust the dosage to keep my estrogen levels normal rather than completely blocking the aromatase enzyme.

My last cycle I stopped the arimidex the last 4 weeks (test-e 500mg EW 15 weeks) and I blew up like a balloon, moon face and all. I also got a small lump under my right nipple. I wanted to finish with an all out bulk and paid for it.

Do you not use an AI while on test or dbol? If so, what is your reasoning? Just curious. I know some prefer a low dose of nolva throughout instead.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Why a heavily aromatizing AAS like D-bol in conjunction with an aromatase inhibitor?

Are you asking because you don't know or because you want to find out if the thread starter does?

 

[jman2129]

I have been trying to figure out why I have not received any input. Maybe I answered my own question within my post? Did I post this in the wrong forum? I would of expected to at least have someone tell me to do more research or something. I realize that people respond differently to chemicals and that you cant guarantee that I will recover with a certain protocol.

I guess I will just run nolva only for my PCT and cross my fingers.

I suppose the HCG will mimic LH and the nolva will take over after that so I should be good to go.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I have been trying to figure out why I have not received any input. Maybe I answered my own question within my post? Did I post this in the wrong forum? I would of expected to at least have someone tell me to do more research or something. I realize that people respond differently to chemicals and that you cant guarantee that I will recover with a certain protocol.

I guess I will just run nolva only for my PCT and cross my fingers.

I suppose the HCG will mimic LH and the nolva will take over after that so I should be good to go.

What are you looking for? I'm not sure you asked a question. But if you want some of my personal thoughts, here are some of mine:

1. After all these years, I've come to the conclusion that, for me at least, Clomid and Tamoxifen are worthless. They kill my sex drive and have never hastened recovery from a suppressed axis. But that's me. Everyone is different.

2. An AI seems to help me some and the best one I've used is Aromasin. And continuing taking it throughout the month or two after coming off has been the best medicine for me. The other AI's lower my HDL too low and throw off my lipid profile and get my doc all worked up.

3. The best PCT is time off from drugs. Period.

 

[jman2129]

Yeah, I seem to get that a lot when I ask questions. I will make my questions more definitive next time.

-Agreed that we all respond differently.
-I take 6+ months off between cycles.
- am I understanding you right that you do not use a serm for PCT, only an AI?

I am sure I'm wrong about this but my logic is that if an AI lowers estrogen enough to a point of having an unfavorable lipid profile then using a moderate dose would result in not completely wiping out estrogen. So, essentially your lipids would not be affected as much. I don't know.

Thanks for the input

 

[Quad-smack]

Are you asking because you don't know or because you want to find out if the thread starter does?

To see if the thread starter does.

Jman2129 - In my experience when your dosages are too high for what your body can handle, you get sides like bloating and gyno. Also heavily aromatizing AAS like D-bol are going to bloat you. If you don't like the bloat, simple - don't do it and save your liver some wear & tear in the process. For what its worth, my suggestion is to try much lower doses of test only and use Exemestane/Aromasin as PCT and/or if your gyno gets woken up.

 

[jman2129]

Good point. I guess if I really want an oral I could go with t-bol or something instead.

During my last cycle of test @500 ew for 15 I had some serious atrophy after 8 weeks or so and did not recover well during pct but did eventually recover after losing most of my gains. I just want to make sure I dont make the same mistake and put my body through that stress for nothing.

Aromasin for PCT, thats interesting. Can you go into more detail if you have a chance. I realize that AI's can wipe out estrogen and recover HPTA but wouldn't a serm be better?

Thanks

 

[jman2129]

Now that I thought about it a little more wouldn't Aromasin do little to stimualte HPTA? I can see how aromasin in conjunction with nolva would be beneficial considering serms dont really block the build up of estrogen.

 

[Quad-smack]

Think Leutenizing Hormone (LH) & Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH).
When your HPTA senses low estrogen it upregulates LH & FSH. In men estrogen comes from aromatized testosterone (cause we don't have ovaries ) and/or fat cells.
Exemestane/Aromasin are supposed to be less likely to mess with your lipid profile. Some Nolva thrown in won't hurt anything...

 

[jman2129]

Ok, I just did some research and see that most are dosing nolva like 20mg ED for 4 weeks and Aromasin 20mg ED 4-5 weeks when combining the two.

Is there any reason to taper down aromasin towards the end like 20/20/20/10 and maybe run the nolva 40/40/20/20 or 20/20/20/10?

What about running the AI inverse to nolva?

Should nolva be run a little longer then the AI?

 

[jman2129]

Alright, I think I'll do this:

PCT...

Nolva 40 or 20/20/10/10
Aromasin 20/20/20/20

On cycle..

Aromasin 12.5mg EOD

Aromasin is expensive but will def. be more favorable regarding lipids.

Thanks for your input Quad

 

[Quad-smack]

My pleasure. Just a few more words (hopefully of wisdom) for you:
1. Your health comes 1st.
2. Optimal nutrition will give you more results than anything else.
3. Fine-tune your training to provide optimal growth (I'd conservatively say that 90% of most people over-train or at least over-reach)
4. Fine-tune your "supplementation" for maximum growth with minimum amounts and thereby minimum side-effects.
5. Get you blood lab values checked regularly.
6. See #1...

Your last post sounds about right. Good luck with your experiment.

 

[jman2129]

Agreed on 1-6.

I do follow them.

I will probably lower the test to 500

What do you mean "experiment"

I dont think I am the only person that has run this type of cycle and this type of PCT.

I am a little ocd and am obsessing over this so if you could elaborate what you meant by that I would appreciate it.

 

[Quad-smack]

Check your PM jman2129.

 

[jman2129]

Thanks Quad..very knowledgable and helpful.

Just when I think I have a good bead on this game I learn something new.

 

[hackskii]

Why not clomid?
It is used to test the pituitary for secondary hypogonadism.
100mg of clomid for 5 to 7 days results in a doubling of LH and a 20% to 50% increase of FSH. That is huge and I doubt an AI will have that influence, although I am just guessing.

I run both clomid and nolva together and I recover very well.

But, it isnt the SERMS that really are the key to recovery, it is getting testicular function back, the longer the signal of LH to the leydig cells is cut off the longer it will take them to come back to life.
If HCG is used during a cycle, then testicular function for the most part it maintained, once the SERMS are added, LH and FSH will come online and support the nuts.

I dont agree with using an AI for PCT, during a cycle yes, not for PCT, once the AI is stopped you have a higher chance for estrogen rebounding than a SERM, which is a good idea to taper anyway.
AI's can compromise lipid profiles where as nolva will help lipid profiles, also driving estrogen too low can compromise bone loss as well as effect libido.

Clomid sides I notice after about 30 days, then I see tracers, they stop once the clomid is discontinued, at which point I run the nolva for longer.