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See What Extended Slin Use Ultimately Does

Site enhancement where.

and you guys are talsomeonein doing that to his waist?
I guess it did the same to his head?
Guys it's the hgh, big waist and big face.
His head has changed, I see him all the time.
You're not supposed to notice head growth on someone.
But damn...
 
I don't doubt the studies that some have posted here about high androgens and visceral fat....but I guess I'm just wondering why myself and a lot of other people lean out so well on test/tren cycles when androgen levels are through the roof? I usually don't even need to do cardio when on a test/tren cycle to lean out significantly as long as my diet is on point.

Are you 100% maxed out in the amount of muscle you can put on like these Olympia pros? Taking a decent cycle isn't going to make you have a gut. But do everything at a maximum level - aas, insulin, hgh, high calories etc for 10+ years like the pros with guts and then see if it comes off dieting especially when you have to diet on 4000calories from the drugs and mass you have
 
Are you 100% maxed out in the amount of muscle you can put on like these Olympia pros? Taking a decent cycle isn't going to make you have a gut. But do everything at a maximum level - aas, insulin, hgh, high calories etc for 10+ years like the pros with guts and then see if it comes off dieting especially when you have to diet on 4000calories from the drugs and mass you have

OK.....What I was talking about is the study posted in post #30. It basically says that men accumulate fat at the abdomen because men have higher androgen levels than women. My question wasn't aimed at pro level bodybuilders, or someone that is "slamming insulin". I was just wondering if men are more likely to put on abdominal fat from higher androgens....then why is it so much easier to burn off bodyfat (abdominal or in general) when androgens are through the roof on a test/tren cycle. It is even less likely to put on abdominal fat when using test/tren when on a mass cycle, and you are eating calories above maintenance. Maybe some of tren's thermogenic effect is caused by something other than high androgen levels?
 
Daniel Gwartney, M.D.



Big Gut Dilemma - Is Insulin to Blame?



Raw Mass, Not Quality Muscle
How does insulin contribute to what has been known as “GH belly” in bodybuilders? Is there any proof it happens? Of course, there has not be a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial approved by an institutional review board; nor will there ever be. Yet, would the word of another Mr. Olympia legend add credence to the hypothetical association?

In an interview published in Muscular Development, six-time Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates noted his experience with growth hormone and insulin, commenting that whereas growth hormone (8 IU/day) did have a positive effect on his size and condition, insofar as insulin was concerned, “I got bigger than ever, but it wasn’t quality muscle, and my midsection was distended.” In fact, Yates only used insulin one year during the off-season. He further stated, “For me, insulin had a negative overall impact on my physique. It kept me from getting into my usual condition that I prided myself on. Raw mass is not the same thing as quality muscle tissue. I got a bit bigger, but at the expense of my separation, crispness and clear muscle separations. I see that same lack of separation constantly today with the guys, as well as the distended abs.”

Despite the cacophony of disrespect for “broscience” from the wonder boys of academia, there is great relevance and value in the observations of these men. Such “reports from the field” offer insights that more often than not raise questions, but also offer guidance as to the correct direction to explore in the scientific literature. Note, Yates reports that the appearance of today’s competitors is similar to what he experienced while experimenting with insulin.

Insulin’s Double Whammy
This is going to be a deep-end splash into physiology, so hold your hat and look for the general concepts. First, insulin increases adipocyte lipogenesis— basically, fat storage in the fat cell. This is particularly unhealthy in the intra-abdominal fat depots where much of the growth is due to adipocyte hypertrophy.5 Further, in the overfed state, cortisol (the “stress” hormone) increases the growth of individual fat cells and increases the rate of lipogenesis from insulin’s signal.6 Though testosterone replacement may produce smaller, healthier visceral fat cells in older men with low testosterone, excessively high testosterone may increase adipocyte hypertrophy— bigger but unhealthy fat cells that release harmful hormone-like signals.7 In part, this happens because testosterone increases the enzyme that activates cortisol in fat cells.8 Also, hypertrophic adipocytes have a higher aromatase activity that converts testosterone to estradiol in the cell, further promoting fat storage.9 Insulin resistance is harmful to the overall metabolism, but fat cells and muscle cells that are overloaded with stored fat make cellular modifications to become less sensitive to insulin as a “last resort” act of self-preservation.

So, not only fat cells become more resistant to insulin, but also muscle cells. The increase in cellular energy (ATP/AMP ratio) turns on the anabolic pathway of mTOR and suppresses the metabolically beneficial AMPK pathways.10 Further, stored fat inside the muscle cells increases just as it does in fat cells. Though this is beneficial if it is a response to chronic aerobic conditioning, where the stored fat is there to be used instead of deposited as overflow from overburdened fat cells, it reduces the activity of insulin in muscle cells.11 Thus, the muscle cell is less efficient. Eventually it becomes less efficient at increasing muscle protein synthesis in response to insulin, similar to aging.12

Not only does stored fat interfere with muscle insulin signaling, but also with circulating fat (free fatty acids). Though it has not been studied, the conglomerate of drugs used by professional bodybuilders (e.g., growth hormone, thyroid hormone, clenbuterol, etc.) results in a near-continuous release of free fatty acids. This has been shown to reduce muscle response to insulin.13 Competitors seeking continued gains may unwisely increase the insulin dose— increasing not only fat mass, but also the risk of side effects. Lastly, insulin promotes the accumulation of a class of lipids called ceramides in muscle cells by increasing the rate of production of these signaling molecules.14 The types of ceramides that accumulate in insulin-resistant muscle cells are associated with abdominal obesity and insulin resistance, though they have not been shown to damage muscle function.15

Water Retention
One final matter to consider with insulin’s effect on appearance is water retention. Perhaps the experience of a puffy face and doughy skin after a three-day buffet binge or just a heavy Thanksgiving meal is familiar to many? Insulin acts on the kidneys, promoting water and sodium retention, among other effects.16 Edema (water retention) is common among diabetics using prescribed doses of insulin on restricted diets, so one can only imagine the greater effect among bodybuilders using supraphysiologic doses while consuming the number of calories required to maintain the mass and growth they display. Typical to the sport, the response of the bodybuilder is more drugs to treat this side effect— primarily diuretics during the pre-contest preparation. Some might attempt a low-carbohydrate diet, but this increases the vulnerability to hypoglycemia, shock and organ damage.

Bigger Not Always Better
There is little question that insulin has fueled much of the mass differential in modern-day bodybuilders. However, as voiced by Mr. Olympia legends Arnold Schwarzenegger and Dorian Yates, bigger has not resulted in better. Some of the abdominal distension seen is likely due to growth hormone abuse. However, the role of insulin has been underappreciated, adding to the “bottle-shaped bodies” that provoked a comment from Arnold. The professional places himself at great risk by abusing insulin for size gains. However, the greater fear is that impressionable young men are following their lead with little understanding. Further, the anabolic effect of insulin comes at the cost of greater insulin resistance, and edema. Too often, this leads to additional drug seeking to counter these effects, with a greater risk of an adverse drug interaction.
 
Good stuff Sandpig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe now the Slin Slayers will listen :lightbulb:!



Daniel Gwartney, M.D.



Big Gut Dilemma - Is Insulin to Blame?



Raw Mass, Not Quality Muscle
How does insulin contribute to what has been known as “GH belly” in bodybuilders? Is there any proof it happens? Of course, there has not be a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial approved by an institutional review board; nor will there ever be. Yet, would the word of another Mr. Olympia legend add credence to the hypothetical association?

In an interview published in Muscular Development, six-time Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates noted his experience with growth hormone and insulin, commenting that whereas growth hormone (8 IU/day) did have a positive effect on his size and condition, insofar as insulin was concerned, “I got bigger than ever, but it wasn’t quality muscle, and my midsection was distended.” In fact, Yates only used insulin one year during the off-season. He further stated, “For me, insulin had a negative overall impact on my physique. It kept me from getting into my usual condition that I prided myself on. Raw mass is not the same thing as quality muscle tissue. I got a bit bigger, but at the expense of my separation, crispness and clear muscle separations. I see that same lack of separation constantly today with the guys, as well as the distended abs.”

Despite the cacophony of disrespect for “broscience” from the wonder boys of academia, there is great relevance and value in the observations of these men. Such “reports from the field” offer insights that more often than not raise questions, but also offer guidance as to the correct direction to explore in the scientific literature. Note, Yates reports that the appearance of today’s competitors is similar to what he experienced while experimenting with insulin.

Insulin’s Double Whammy
This is going to be a deep-end splash into physiology, so hold your hat and look for the general concepts. First, insulin increases adipocyte lipogenesis— basically, fat storage in the fat cell. This is particularly unhealthy in the intra-abdominal fat depots where much of the growth is due to adipocyte hypertrophy.5 Further, in the overfed state, cortisol (the “stress” hormone) increases the growth of individual fat cells and increases the rate of lipogenesis from insulin’s signal.6 Though testosterone replacement may produce smaller, healthier visceral fat cells in older men with low testosterone, excessively high testosterone may increase adipocyte hypertrophy— bigger but unhealthy fat cells that release harmful hormone-like signals.7 In part, this happens because testosterone increases the enzyme that activates cortisol in fat cells.8 Also, hypertrophic adipocytes have a higher aromatase activity that converts testosterone to estradiol in the cell, further promoting fat storage.9 Insulin resistance is harmful to the overall metabolism, but fat cells and muscle cells that are overloaded with stored fat make cellular modifications to become less sensitive to insulin as a “last resort” act of self-preservation.

So, not only fat cells become more resistant to insulin, but also muscle cells. The increase in cellular energy (ATP/AMP ratio) turns on the anabolic pathway of mTOR and suppresses the metabolically beneficial AMPK pathways.10 Further, stored fat inside the muscle cells increases just as it does in fat cells. Though this is beneficial if it is a response to chronic aerobic conditioning, where the stored fat is there to be used instead of deposited as overflow from overburdened fat cells, it reduces the activity of insulin in muscle cells.11 Thus, the muscle cell is less efficient. Eventually it becomes less efficient at increasing muscle protein synthesis in response to insulin, similar to aging.12

Not only does stored fat interfere with muscle insulin signaling, but also with circulating fat (free fatty acids). Though it has not been studied, the conglomerate of drugs used by professional bodybuilders (e.g., growth hormone, thyroid hormone, clenbuterol, etc.) results in a near-continuous release of free fatty acids. This has been shown to reduce muscle response to insulin.13 Competitors seeking continued gains may unwisely increase the insulin dose— increasing not only fat mass, but also the risk of side effects. Lastly, insulin promotes the accumulation of a class of lipids called ceramides in muscle cells by increasing the rate of production of these signaling molecules.14 The types of ceramides that accumulate in insulin-resistant muscle cells are associated with abdominal obesity and insulin resistance, though they have not been shown to damage muscle function.15

Water Retention
One final matter to consider with insulin’s effect on appearance is water retention. Perhaps the experience of a puffy face and doughy skin after a three-day buffet binge or just a heavy Thanksgiving meal is familiar to many? Insulin acts on the kidneys, promoting water and sodium retention, among other effects.16 Edema (water retention) is common among diabetics using prescribed doses of insulin on restricted diets, so one can only imagine the greater effect among bodybuilders using supraphysiologic doses while consuming the number of calories required to maintain the mass and growth they display. Typical to the sport, the response of the bodybuilder is more drugs to treat this side effect— primarily diuretics during the pre-contest preparation. Some might attempt a low-carbohydrate diet, but this increases the vulnerability to hypoglycemia, shock and organ damage.

Bigger Not Always Better
There is little question that insulin has fueled much of the mass differential in modern-day bodybuilders. However, as voiced by Mr. Olympia legends Arnold Schwarzenegger and Dorian Yates, bigger has not resulted in better. Some of the abdominal distension seen is likely due to growth hormone abuse. However, the role of insulin has been underappreciated, adding to the “bottle-shaped bodies” that provoked a comment from Arnold. The professional places himself at great risk by abusing insulin for size gains. However, the greater fear is that impressionable young men are following their lead with little understanding. Further, the anabolic effect of insulin comes at the cost of greater insulin resistance, and edema. Too often, this leads to additional drug seeking to counter these effects, with a greater risk of an adverse drug interaction.
 
I think Phil showed up with a gut because he was trying to play the size game, not because of insulin. Because he's been using insulin forever and has had a mild gut for years. He simply didn't want to be dwarfed by Ramy and exaggerated on carbs and slin. My opinion, at least.
 
Do you think you guys who used slin have put solid mass while on it?
I noticed more gycogene storage and muscle fullness than real muscle. When I drop slin, I lost a lot of pounds I guess it was just water.

It should be interesting to see from a prep to another with slin use, if a bodybuilder puted solid muscle mass with slin use. By comparing the 2 preps with the same king of training/diet and aas cycle. Just to be sure the slin is a game changer or not.
 
Just to be sure the slin is a game changer or not.

If HGH/slin weren't game changers today's bodybuilders would look similar to the guys from the 70s and 80s.

What else could have changed the game? Creatine?
 
If HGH/slin weren't game changers today's bodybuilders would look similar to the guys from the 70s and 80s.

What else could have changed the game? Creatine?

Completely agree with you Allex but it can be just massive dose of hgh because of more availability not necesserily because of slin. And this lake of muscle separation and quality is because of slin too.
Yeah actual bb have a lot more size than before but is it as solid as before ?
I want to know if these gains are solid and mature and if these guys putted solid muscle mass from a contest to another or if they gonna piss their gains once they gonna stop slin.
 
Does anyone know how dnp affects visceral fat? Maybe a rapid loss of fat over 2 weeks leads to some extra visceral fat? Dnp seems to burn fat everywhere in my case but I was curious on everyone else's thoughts.
 
Makes you WORSE not BETTER :lightbulb:!

All this nonsense about banging 50 iu's of Lantus a day.
I'm a Type 1 Diabetic and don't use that much insulin.

-MT
50iu of Lantus isn't alot for a type 1 diabetic. Doses as high as 100 in combination with rapid insulin are relatively common place.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
 
50iu of Lantus isn't alot for a type 1 diabetic. Doses as high as 100 in combination with rapid insulin are relatively common place.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Unless you actually know many diabetics using these doses, i highly doubt this is common...
My wife is a diabetic since for 15 years+ and she uses 18iu a day lantus, plus fast acting for food 5-10 units..
Depens on whay shees eating ofcourse...

Anyway, about the "gut".
I feel when i use hgh and igf my stomach area is more swollen and hard.
I used my last botthe of igf last week at 100mcg a day for 10 days. And i could tell the diffrence on my abs/stomach area. Water/swelling pushes the whole package out.
Now 5 days after last shot its starting to go away..

Can it be that the rise in igf for long periods of time will make a permanent change?

I have used insulin with and without hgh and i never had any permanent issues really. Mostly water that comes off when stopping it..
 
Unless you actually know many diabetics using these doses, i highly doubt this is common...
My wife is a diabetic since for 15 years+ and she uses 18iu a day lantus, plus fast acting for food 5-10 units..
Depens on whay shees eating ofcourse...

Anyway, about the "gut".
I feel when i use hgh and igf my stomach area is more swollen and hard.
I used my last botthe of igf last week at 100mcg a day for 10 days. And i could tell the diffrence on my abs/stomach area. Water/swelling pushes the whole package out.
Now 5 days after last shot its starting to go away..

Can it be that the rise in igf for long periods of time will make a permanent change?

I have used insulin with and without hgh and i never had any permanent issues really. Mostly water that comes off when stopping it..

It sounds like your wife has done a fantastic job of controlling her blood sugar and keeping sensitive--kudos to her!

For type 2 diabetics (I'm not entirely familiar with T1 dosing, yet) with blood sugar uncontrolled by other methods, a common starter dose is 0.2iu/kg OR 10 units daily. Sadly, as is the case with most T2 diabetics...they'll continue to have poor control and dosages will escalate over the years. It isn't uncommon whatsoever to see 50-100iu basal insulin (plus humalog at meals).
 
Unless you actually know many diabetics using these doses, i highly doubt this is common...
My wife is a diabetic since for 15 years+ and she uses 18iu a day lantus, plus fast acting for food 5-10 units..
Depens on whay shees eating ofcourse...

Anyway, about the "gut".
I feel when i use hgh and igf my stomach area is more swollen and hard.
I used my last botthe of igf last week at 100mcg a day for 10 days. And i could tell the diffrence on my abs/stomach area. Water/swelling pushes the whole package out.
Now 5 days after last shot its starting to go away..

Can it be that the rise in igf for long periods of time will make a permanent change?

I have used insulin with and without hgh and i never had any permanent issues really. Mostly water that comes off when stopping it..
So your wife takes 18iu of long acting and what up to 30iu of rapid and you don't think a man with more body mass and a larger diet would take 100iu..

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
 
Makes you WORSE not BETTER :lightbulb:!

All this nonsense about banging 50 iu's of Lantus a day.
I'm a Type 1 Diabetic and don't use that much insulin.

-MT

Is a combination of insulin, HGH and to much carbs, to much carbs will course leaky gut, and enlarged colon.
 
The stretching from food theory kills me. It's visceral fat in there.

I lol at the food theory as well. Plenty of pro an Olympic athletes eat tons during hard training phases and don't have guts like that. Sure pro bodybuilder so are big but don't train hours a day. Phelps said he ate 10000 cal a day. Doubt Phil eats that much. That Asian dude that use to win all the eating contest would lift his shirt and flex abs and didn't have a gut like that even after a gazillion hot dogs. Ha .Also most of these guys spread calories out over an entire day. I fast and eat all calories in an hour or two. Usually 2000 to 2500 but have went as high as 3000 and I never had any weird distinction.
 
. Usually 2000 to 2500 but have went as high as 3000 and I never had any weird distinction.

Try eating up to 800 grams carbs for 2-3 days while being dehydrated so digestion is off a little and see how your stomach feels and if you get distended. Some of the bigger guys have to eat that much to carb up, the carb up food can have a huge effect on how the stomach appears
 

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