Sides from AIs/Serms/Sarms/etc..

jrs · Nov 12, 2009

People seem to start taking stuff without really researching what it is or what exactly it's for. Only because somebody says to.

I'd like to know more about the new stuff. Nolva and Clomid have well-documented and agreed sides. What about this new stuff?

Exemestane seems to be pretty popular. Other AIs, Accutate, Melanotan.

Does anybody know if, for example, the chemiclas designed for women to use perhaps cause different affects in males? For example, is it possible that any of these could affect fertility (temporarly or permanently?)

How about the suicidal aromatase inhibitors? Kind of odd how that works, no?

I HAVE done research and all I find for use in males is the same regurgitated info copied and pasted from article to article, site to site, forum to forum. When abstracts of the studies cited as sources are found, you realize that some of the info may have been misinterpreted or exaggerated.

DTOWNDANDY · Nov 12, 2009

jrs said:
People seem to start taking stuff without really researching what it is or what exactly it's for. Only because somebody says to.

I'd like to know more about the new stuff. Nolva and Clomid have well-documented and agreed sides. What about this new stuff?

Exemestane seems to be pretty popular. Other AIs, Accutate, Melanotan.

Does anybody know if, for example, the chemiclas designed for women to use perhaps cause different affects in males? For example, is it possible that any of these could affect fertility (temporarly or permanently?)

How about the suicidal aromatase inhibitors? Kind of odd how that works, no?

I HAVE done research and all I find for use in males is the same regurgitated info copied and pasted from article to article, site to site, forum to forum. When abstracts of the studies cited as sources are found, you realize that some of the info may have been misinterpreted or exaggerated.

Auutate and Melanotan arent A.I.'s Accutane is for treatment of severe acne, melanotan is to make your skin darker. For tanning purposes, hint the TAN at the end of the word.

Suicidal AI's? Please explain.

Macro · Nov 12, 2009

jrs said:
People seem to start taking stuff without really researching what it is or what exactly it's for. Only because somebody says to.

I'd like to know more about the new stuff. Nolva and Clomid have well-documented and agreed sides. What about this new stuff?

Exemestane seems to be pretty popular. Other AIs, Accutate, Melanotan.

Does anybody know if, for example, the chemiclas designed for women to use perhaps cause different affects in males? For example, is it possible that any of these could affect fertility (temporarly or permanently?)

How about the suicidal aromatase inhibitors? Kind of odd how that works, no?

I HAVE done research and all I find for use in males is the same regurgitated info copied and pasted from article to article, site to site, forum to forum. When abstracts of the studies cited as sources are found, you realize that some of the info may have been misinterpreted or exaggerated.

when macro tells you take it. you take it boy.

seriously...

no, but seriously.

AI's like exemestane are vastly superior to nolvadex for preventing estrogenic sides like gynecomastia.

Clomiphene still has a PCT edge.

Tamoxifen is actually a rather crappy SERM and a bit toxic. It has its place, sort of, but as long as old timers and their proteges keep pimping it, its here to stay. Its way over used and in some cases actually rather detrimental, particularly when used with progestins or after them (strong links to worsening of tissue development and post cycle gyno---)---- there less pain because of IGF_1 reductions but actually not inhibiting tissue, in some instances making it worse)... problem is, people take nolva, lump recedes and pain recedes (prostaglandin and igf suppression) but really tissue can still be expanding... so people THINK its getting better... but its not..

accutane (isotretinoin) is a vitamin A derived drug, it is rather hepatoxic (because its vitamin A like). most of the issues that are attributed to it are due to the rediculously high dosing that doctors reccomend. 20mg/day is sufficient for most, even less for those with less severe acne or wishing to run longer.

melanotan is a peptide, derivatives of melanocyte stimulating hormone. there are at least 2 forms, with rather different profiles.

Macro · Nov 12, 2009

DTOWNDANDY said:
Suicidal AI's? Please explain.

exemestane (also includes formestane and ATD among others- these are not good orally because of half life and uptake issues- ATD is effective topically/transdermally in formulations like AIFM) is a suicidal inhibitor. it directly binds to and deactivates aromatase enzymes (essentially- "suiciding it"). They also disrupt synthesis to some extent.

letrozole and anastrozole are competitive inhibitors, they do not suicide enzymes and typically cause some form of aromatase rebound (estrogen) and inhibit (but upregulate synthesis mRNA)

jrs · Nov 12, 2009

obviously including melanotan and accutane i'm referring to newer drugs (or at least new to our hypothetical application to male bodybuilders) with sides that may not yet be discovered

thx for the info as always, macro. if you don't mind, would you mind explaining side affects with these different chemicals? perhaps things that people wouldn't imagine? again i'm referencing libido, mood (thats the big thing with clomid for some reason?), any of the bodily systems.

Macro · Nov 14, 2009

jrs said:
obviously including melanotan and accutane i'm referring to newer drugs (or at least new to our hypothetical application to male bodybuilders) with sides that may not yet be discovered

thx for the info as always, macro. if you don't mind, would you mind explaining side affects with these different chemicals? perhaps things that people wouldn't imagine? again i'm referencing libido, mood (thats the big thing with clomid for some reason?), any of the bodily systems.

could you be more specific? as every steroid, SERM, SARM, dopaminergic, Aromatase inhibitor has different profiles and thus different potential benefits and side effects.

of course, side effects are often quite relative to the individual. Broad negative side effects are uncommon with "successful" drugs... since by definition such are required to have generally low occurence of sides, other than mild ones. At least within this arena.

high doses of cabergoline (over time) can cause valvular regurge. shown at 2mg+, though may occur at lower

high dose pramipexole can exacerbate underlying compulsive hedonistic behaviours (pleasure seeking) such as gambling and shopping, even cross dressing.... it however does not create such... just amplifies already existing. Though this is relatively uncommon, even at higher doses. Such dissipate rapidly with cessation.

high dose tamox (particularly over time) can cause liver damage and perhaps cancer, definitely causes DNA damage.

even low dose letrozole can cause libido and joint issues (all ai's have potential) if estrogen levels are suppressed to far. Part of the reason that exemestane is generally preferred is because it does not suppress central conversion to the same extent (plasma interupption vs. tissue based concentration suppression of letrozole-- with high affinity for tissue producing estrone)

clomiphene can cause lasting even permanant tracers, very uncommon for permanence but possible.

Sarms are more of an unknown, though since they dont convert to estrogen and may have unknown binding potentials they likely will have hormone related sides associated with androgens, progestins and GCR's. Though probably less than any oral, because of their receptor based affinity.

selegiline can cause paranoia, quite severe when dopamine is artificially elevated.

etc....

etc...

but generally most of these have minimal sides, and such are usually recognizable and avoidable (lowering dose--- or in some cases-- increasing it....)

but you asked for the outliers... so these are some.

jrs · Nov 14, 2009

Macro said:
could you be more specific? as every steroid, SERM, SARM, dopaminergic, Aromatase inhibitor has different profiles and thus different potential benefits and side effects.

of course, side effects are often quite relative to the individual. Broad negative side effects are uncommon with "successful" drugs... since by definition such are required to have generally low occurence of sides, other than mild ones. At least within this arena.

high doses of cabergoline (over time) can cause valvular regurge. shown at 2mg+, though may occur at lower

high dose pramipexole can exacerbate underlying compulsive hedonistic behaviours (pleasure seeking) such as gambling and shopping, even cross dressing.... it however does not create such... just amplifies already existing. Though this is relatively uncommon, even at higher doses. Such dissipate rapidly with cessation.

high dose tamox (particularly over time) can cause liver damage and perhaps cancer, definitely causes DNA damage.

even low dose letrozole can cause libido and joint issues (all ai's have potential) if estrogen levels are suppressed to far. Part of the reason that exemestane is generally preferred is because it does not suppress central conversion to the same extent (plasma interupption vs. tissue based concentration suppression of letrozole-- with high affinity for tissue producing estrone)

clomiphene can cause lasting even permanant tracers, very uncommon for permanence but possible.

Sarms are more of an unknown, though since they dont convert to estrogen and may have unknown binding potentials they likely will have hormone related sides associated with androgens, progestins and GCR's. Though probably less than any oral, because of their receptor based affinity.

selegiline can cause paranoia, quite severe when dopamine is artificially elevated.

etc....

etc...

but generally most of these have minimal sides, and such are usually recognizable and avoidable (lowering dose--- or in some cases-- increasing it....)

but you asked for the outliers... so these are some.

sorry for not being more specific. i only post after work when i have been up for a long, long time. thanks for the info. very interesting stuff. also interested in hearing about any NEGATIVES about exemestane.

thanks much. i appreciate your contributions here

Macro · Nov 18, 2009

jrs said:
sorry for not being more specific. i only post after work when i have been up for a long, long time. thanks for the info. very interesting stuff. also interested in hearing about any NEGATIVES about exemestane.

thanks much. i appreciate your contributions here

exemestane far and away has the least negatives of any AI. it does work best when taken with high fat meal (up to 40% increase in peak plasma uptake)

PsyT · Nov 18, 2009

i never noticed anything negative from exemestane. Its a pretty amazing drug. I would prefer to stay on a low dose every day of the year.

Macro · Nov 25, 2009

PsyT said:
i never noticed anything negative from exemestane. Its a pretty amazing drug. I would prefer to stay on a low dose every day of the year.

really should not present an issue. might want to switch off with aifm (since non methylated, for a month or 2 each year) or even letro (though would do more intervals and keep them short with let). though honestly 6-methyls put very little strain on liver.