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The genetic limit on ultimate size and strength

I absolutely do. I plan on another 5-7 years of pushing really hard with bodybuilding and 250lbs. at 6% is doable in that period.

I had a Dexa of 202lbs. at 7% last year, 220lbs. at 6% this year. If I can hit 275lbs. this offseason, 235lbs.+ at 6% is easily doable for next year's Dexa. Even calculating with a depreciating rate of gains over the next few years makes 250lbs. at 6% a realistic goal in 5-7 years.
That's a great attitude. Looking forward to seeing it. I'm not sure how tall you are, but the way you look at 220, with 30lbs more muscle, that's a damn Olympia look (and I'm not being sarcastic, but sincere). I know I don't have the genetics for that. I think I can still get to 250lbs contest lean, but for my height to have the equivalent look to yours at 250, I think I'd have to be over 300 at contest shape. No way in hell will that ever happen lol
 
You guys are talking about two completely different ideas: is there a genetic limit on growth and do people have different genetics.

My point actually was
1) those two things are connected
2) you cant differentiate between nature and nurture which is why this is a moot point

I just hate when this gets brought up bc its a pitty party for all the people that are ignorant to all the things they do poorly. "Squats cant build my legs, its genetics" no you have god awful mechanics in your feet, knees, and hips so you suck at them, and now you're blame something that in your mind is out of your control, its not. I can go on all day with examples like this. Shit like the kevin levorone example, you have no idea how well he contracts or how many motor units he recruits, all you can see is the bar move up and down, so how tf do you know you cant be like him?

This has and never was a discussion on genetics, its everyone exchanging anecdotes. Not that it's even slightly my forte but we can ACTUALLY make this about genetics if you want, regardless its still a moot point.
 
There seems to be two end point views emerging here:

1) Keep adding drugs, food, training stimulus and you will keep growing. There is a limit, but it's like 300 lbs lean. No one will reach 500, etc.
2) Some people will top out at a reasonable size (say 210-230 under 6ft) and will not progress regardless of stimuli. Only exceedingly rare genetics will allow further progress.
 
One of the most frequent signs (aside from the obvious ones) associated with massive SEO abuse is that the chests of SEO abusers are almost always about HALF the size they should be, relative to the rest of their body.
"Golem" is no exception.

I want to see a guy with a quality chest (no SEO's) that is as freaky big as some of the SEO-loaded arms and delts we see out there. However, we have never seen that because if SEO were used in the chest, to the same degree we see i he arms and delts, it would look like shit.

So, when attempting to discern the true upper-limit of muscle growth (with the drugs currently available to us), we should look at the biggest chests (and backs) of today's bodybuilders, as those bodyparts are, generally speaking, a much better indicator than the arms or delts. If you look at Golem in front shots (with no pump), the discrepancy between his chest and arms/delts is glaring. If he had never used any SEO's, I think we would be seeing a MUCH smaller version of Golem that we currently do. We saw the same thing with Rich Piana--massive arms and delts but a comparatively poor chest.

Of course. I was just giving 1 example of someone who is pushing the boundaries. He has gone way overboard with seo like many do but he is still legit huge. I completely agree. He wouldn't look nowhere as big without the seo but the point is he is a name that popped in my head because he is pushing the seo and he is pushing trying to look as big as possible. Very few have that mentality and are willing to go that extreme. My posts in this thread have meant many things because it a broad subject but one thing is guys don't have to look good. Most guys the bigger they get the worse they look. Even genetic marvels they look much better on stage with a tighter waist then if bulking and a bloated 300+ pounds. Nevermind someone who doesn't even have a great shape to begin with and is literally just abusing their body in every way possible (food, aas, hgh, slin, seo etc) to get as big as possible.

That part of that post was mainly just about people who are actually pushing it. You have guys who think they have pushed the size to the max and the most calories they have ate is about 4000 per day and they weighed very little. I am against force feeding for many reasons but if someone's goal was to get as big as humanly possible (no matter what) that should be a daily thing. Even guys who have pushed it there are not many who have done it to the extreme and I went over some basic reasons why 99.9% of us don't do that. Most don't even like the huge or freak look. Even guys who love it no one really wants to be taking their body to the extreme because it's not fun and well just so many obvious reasons (effort required, health problems. guaranteed early death etc).
 
It sucks but some of us just have to accept genetic limitations and do what we can do with what we got. You either got it or you dont and those who do have it, have it in varying degrees. We were all blessed in some ways and short changed in others. Some of us didnt get the elephant cock genetics, some didnt get the rocket scientist genetics, and some of us didnt get the gorilla genetics.

Just gotta count your blessings and be happy for what you do have cuz someone else out there probably wishes they were in your shoes.
 
I think it's common sense and of course there are limits. Daniel made a fantastic post and when someone has that mindset they can push and push and get much further than most. Obviously it should go without stating he won't be able to just keep growing at the same body fat regardless what he does. It's not like he will end up 320 pounds at 6% but surely that is obvious. Everyone has different limits but I think many are way underplaying themselves. The fact is they haven't put enough effort it. It should also go without stating I haven't either but I would never make posts like I hit my genetic limit for size because I know it's nonsense. If my life depended upon it I could add much more size. Sure I would probably look worse the more weight I added but I could add it. Yes there is a limit and I could be going through 10k calories and taking 5+ grams of gear and I will simply stop growing at some point but some people's perceived limits are ridiculous.

Fact is anyone who has tried to get really big will know they will hit plateau after plateau and it will drive them crazy. It will seem like they are eating tonnes and nothing is moving and they will have to do more and more to get less and less. The fact remains most can go much further if they are driven enough. I see posts and wonder have these guys progressively ate over decades with gradual drugs until they are force feeding 500g+ protein per day and massive amounts of carbs and insulin. No they haven't so they are nowhere near their limit. It should also go without stating why they haven't done all those things because most sane people would never do that.

BB is all genetics but I don't really get the genetic limitation posts. Yes there are many deluded people out there. Yes there are many idiots who think they could turn pro on x stack and they couldn't even win a regional show on all the drugs in the world. But at the same time so many haven't even scaped the surface when it comes to the amount of muscle they could put on but they use the term "genetics" as an excuse. Surely no one is stupid enough to not see how genetics is everything and some can grow much easier and get much bigger than others. How some guys can train brutally hard and they simply don't grow like x person. The spectrum for genetics is huge and it should be obvious to anyone who has been training in gyms for years. However so many guys get to say 220 pounds and they state stuff like I have done everything and I simply can't grow anymore due to my genetics. Have they really done everything or did they just give up because it would take so much effort doing everything needed to grow more.
 
BB is all genetics but I don't really get the genetic limitation posts. Yes there are many deluded people out there. Yes there are many idiots who think they could turn pro on x stack and they couldn't even win a regional show on all the drugs in the world. But at the same time so many haven't even scaped the surface when it comes to the amount of muscle they could put on but they use the term "genetics" as an excuse. Surely no one is stupid enough to not see how genetics is everything and some can grow much easier and get much bigger than others. How some guys can train brutally hard and they simply don't grow like x person. The spectrum for genetics is huge and it should be obvious to anyone who has been training in gyms for years. However so many guys get to say 220 pounds and they state stuff like I have done everything and I simply can't grow anymore due to my genetics. Have they really done everything or did they just give up because it would take so much effort doing everything needed to grow more.


Hi Elvia,

Just to clarify my original point further, my original proposition is a situation in which the individual is doing everything right, yet gets topped out.
Most people never train or eat properly or consistently. Many have poor quality AAS/GH, etc.

All things being equal though, I believe some will hit a wall at a "big", but for many of us, modest size.
I see an awful lot of people using lots of gear, eating a lot of food, and - I assume - training hard, and frankly don't look impressive.
They are limited.

There are pros who work their arses off, but can't grow a set of impressive legs.
I'm not going to say Dusty Hanshaw doesn't work hard (sorry Dusty) or is missing any tools in his toolkit.
Pros are limited too.

Again, I'll put myself forward as an example. I think my genetics are alright, but not exceptional.
I've done everything possible outside of insane drug abuse (which I DO NOT think the best pros indulge in).

I started training at 15, gear at 19.
When I was 20 I followed Parillo and wanted to go pro. I was obsessed. I had all the right people around me and supporting me.
I had drugs right out of the pharmacy, trained like an insane person, and ate 8k calories a day - made possible by lots of Captri ;)

I maxed out at 242 at 5'8" at about 10-12%
I have continued to push and experiment since then, though I took a significant break from competition.

This is by no means a pity post, because I'm not unhappy in any way, but I do recognize the situation for what it is.
I was no more going to be a top bodybuilder than a record-setting sprinter. My genes said "no".
 
Hi Elvia,

Just to clarify my original point further, my original proposition is a situation in which the individual is doing everything right, yet gets topped out.
Most people never train or eat properly or consistently. Many have poor quality AAS/GH, etc.

All things being equal though, I believe some will hit a wall at a "big", but for many of us, modest size.
I see an awful lot of people using lots of gear, eating a lot of food, and - I assume - training hard, and frankly don't look impressive.
They are limited.

There are pros who work their arses off, but can't grow a set of impressive legs.
I'm not going to say Dusty Hanshaw doesn't work hard (sorry Dusty) or is missing any tools in his toolkit.
Pros are limited too.

Again, I'll put myself forward as an example. I think my genetics are alright, but not exceptional.
I've done everything possible outside of insane drug abuse (which I DO NOT think the best pros indulge in).

I started training at 15, gear at 19.
When I was 20 I followed Parillo and wanted to go pro. I was obsessed. I had all the right people around me and supporting me.
I had drugs right out of the pharmacy, trained like an insane person, and ate 8k calories a day - made possible by lots of Captri ;)

I maxed out at 242 at 5'8" at about 10-12%
I have continued to push and experiment since then, though I took a significant break from competition.

This is by no means a pity post, because I'm not unhappy in any way, but I do recognize the situation for what it is.
I was no more going to be a top bodybuilder than a record-setting sprinter. My genes said "no".
What was your experience with John Parillo? The owner of the gym I trained at was close friends with John and I was lucky to have him train me on leg day for about 3 months. That was back in the late 90s. Parillo training was brutal, especially legs. I liked the captri. His protein bars were great too.
 
What was your experience with John Parillo? The owner of the gym I trained at was close friends with John and I was lucky to have him train me on leg day for about 3 months. That was back in the late 90s. Parillo training was brutal, especially legs. I liked the captri. His protein bars were great too.


I was only able to meet him once back then ...in 1989 I think, and never trained with him unfortunately.
This was right when I was leaving my teenage years and exploring what it took to go to the open classes.

My correspondence with him - I was never formally engaged - was all around food.
I was eating lots of everything, but all good food and captri with every meal, often up to 2-3 Tbsps after my GI tract got used to it ;)
 
I think it's common sense and of course there are limits. Daniel made a fantastic post and when someone has that mindset they can push and push and get much further than most. Obviously it should go without stating he won't be able to just keep growing at the same body fat regardless what he does. It's not like he will end up 320 pounds at 6% but surely that is obvious. Everyone has different limits but I think many are way underplaying themselves. The fact is they haven't put enough effort it. It should also go without stating I haven't either but I would never make posts like I hit my genetic limit for size because I know it's nonsense. If my life depended upon it I could add much more size. Sure I would probably look worse the more weight I added but I could add it. Yes there is a limit and I could be going through 10k calories and taking 5+ grams of gear and I will simply stop growing at some point but some people's perceived limits are ridiculous.

Fact is anyone who has tried to get really big will know they will hit plateau after plateau and it will drive them crazy. It will seem like they are eating tonnes and nothing is moving and they will have to do more and more to get less and less. The fact remains most can go much further if they are driven enough. I see posts and wonder have these guys progressively ate over decades with gradual drugs until they are force feeding 500g+ protein per day and massive amounts of carbs and insulin. No they haven't so they are nowhere near their limit. It should also go without stating why they haven't done all those things because most sane people would never do that.

BB is all genetics but I don't really get the genetic limitation posts. Yes there are many deluded people out there. Yes there are many idiots who think they could turn pro on x stack and they couldn't even win a regional show on all the drugs in the world. But at the same time so many haven't even scaped the surface when it comes to the amount of muscle they could put on but they use the term "genetics" as an excuse. Surely no one is stupid enough to not see how genetics is everything and some can grow much easier and get much bigger than others. How some guys can train brutally hard and they simply don't grow like x person. The spectrum for genetics is huge and it should be obvious to anyone who has been training in gyms for years. However so many guys get to say 220 pounds and they state stuff like I have done everything and I simply can't grow anymore due to my genetics. Have they really done everything or did they just give up because it would take so much effort doing everything needed to grow more.

One thing I do find is a lot of people who say they dont have genetics actually do (maybe not elite genetics, but sure better than many), and it doesnt allow them to see that other people actually dont. Not saying those people didnt work their asses off, I'm sure a great many did. And I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who do use the genetics thing as a cop out.

At the end of the day you are dealt the hand you're dealt. The only one who's going to know whether or not you put in the work is you.

YOU can do what YOU can do with your genetic makeup and the stress YOU'RE willing to put on your body. That's all there is to it.

Look at the variances in the height of people. If there is that much genetic variance in height how could it not be exactly the same for muscle accrual?

There are some things in this world that you can't simply overcome by hardwork. Trust me, I hate saying that. Hard work will take you far and can transform your life but there is simply some places out there that it cant take you.

Will working out, diet and peds make you the best you can be? Fuck ya, put in the work and watch the magic happen! But you are you and you can only be the best YOU.
 
That's a great attitude. Looking forward to seeing it. I'm not sure how tall you are, but the way you look at 220, with 30lbs more muscle, that's a damn Olympia look (and I'm not being sarcastic, but sincere). I know I don't have the genetics for that. I think I can still get to 250lbs contest lean, but for my height to have the equivalent look to yours at 250, I think I'd have to be over 300 at contest shape. No way in hell will that ever happen lol

Thanks man, I appreciate your support. That's what this board needs more of.

I'm 6', so 250lbs. at 6% wouldn't quite get me to Olympia-level size, but on the way. That's honestly one of the best compliments I've ever received and I look forward to showing you that physique in a few years.

And to clarify, no, I won't keep growing while staying at 6%.

This is 1-2 weeks before I started my diet. 250lbs., TRT for ~3 months, not dieting, no cardio.

me030620.jpg
 
Hi Elvia,

Just to clarify my original point further, my original proposition is a situation in which the individual is doing everything right, yet gets topped out.
Most people never train or eat properly or consistently. Many have poor quality AAS/GH, etc.

All things being equal though, I believe some will hit a wall at a "big", but for many of us, modest size.
I see an awful lot of people using lots of gear, eating a lot of food, and - I assume - training hard, and frankly don't look impressive.
They are limited.

There are pros who work their arses off, but can't grow a set of impressive legs.
I'm not going to say Dusty Hanshaw doesn't work hard (sorry Dusty) or is missing any tools in his toolkit.
Pros are limited too.

Again, I'll put myself forward as an example. I think my genetics are alright, but not exceptional.
I've done everything possible outside of insane drug abuse (which I DO NOT think the best pros indulge in).

I started training at 15, gear at 19.
When I was 20 I followed Parillo and wanted to go pro. I was obsessed. I had all the right people around me and supporting me.
I had drugs right out of the pharmacy, trained like an insane person, and ate 8k calories a day - made possible by lots of Captri ;)

I maxed out at 242 at 5'8" at about 10-12%
I have continued to push and experiment since then, though I took a significant break from competition.

This is by no means a pity post, because I'm not unhappy in any way, but I do recognize the situation for what it is.
I was no more going to be a top bodybuilder than a record-setting sprinter. My genes said "no".

It's your thread but my posts aren't really directed towards you because I have pretty much agreed with everything you have written in this thread. You simply get it and I actually agree with your thoughts on this. My thoughts aren't much different I am just highlighting the extremes. I feel when discussing the ultimate size and strength you have to be extreme. The guys who are the best are usually the ones most obsessed and will do anything to attain their goals. Forget about genetics I am talking about holding as much muscle as possible... that is hard work no matter who you are. You have been there and done it so you know. So many points but I will try to keep it brief (I failed :eek:).

I will use you as an example because you mention your details and what you noticed in yourself. You state you have had 8k cals but for how long? Didn't you have a massive break from competing and I assume you mainly just tried to maintain good condition in that break? Didn't you even come off all cycles? So to me if someone hasn't been progressively eating and drugging themselves for many many years straight they haven't really pushed the boundaries into the maximum size they can attain. Again we are talking extremes here and the biggest they could ever make themselves. We can create new set points and our bodies adapt even if there is a ceiling limit. Maybe I am wrong as aren't you about 50 so you could have been hitting it hard for 10+ years.

You wrote yourself though you didn't abuse drugs. Did you use 10-20iu slin with every meal of the day, loads of hgh and 5+ grams of gear for many years with minimal breaks in drugs. My point is there are extremes to this. Some of these guys inject themselves with 100ml oil daily when 99.9% of the population couldn't even do that is they were paid. I am merely commenting on the topic of has everyone exhausted all possibilties in their pursuit of maximum size. When guys on here write they tried everything and they couldn't grow past 230/250/270/290 etc did they really do everything they could have. As you allude to some don't need to excessively abuse to attain freak status if their genetics are that great. There are plenty of freaks who don't even have to eat that much (compared to most) to get to 300 pounds. However that is coming back to individual genetics. Fact is most of the freaks walking around over 350 pounds lean are living a life of abuse. Plus if x person can be 270 and lean on a moderate cycle and no insulin and 4000 cals per day what could he be on double all of that.

I also don't want you to take my post the wrong way because I 100% understand there is a limit and when guys get closer to that limit things just get harder and harder. Meaning you could have reached your 242 doing what you did. You could have started eating 200g more protein and done 1.5g extra test for 1 year straight and got to 248 lean. Then you could have upped things even more and really abused and only added 2 pounds in another 2 years. Many often go backwards when they start adding in more drugs due to the toxicity. So it's not just use and eat more and grow more because we all know it just stops eventually.

I agree with everything you state. You have been there and done it so my post isn't really directed to you. You built a great physique and was big and lean but again I am talking extremes and about getting as big as possible. You don't think you could have got to 270 and not fat with loads of hgh, slin and carbs? There are guys who don't have great genetics who have reached 300 pounds at a very low height because they just grinded and abused drugs and food in the process.

What you state is obviously true because look at all the pro's who are elite and they get to a stage were they pretty much don't ever grow again and just refine and often lose size. None of them very rarely just continue to grow and grow unless they had serious issues with consistency or they were taking low doses at the start and they upped aas and added in slin and more food etc.

From the looks of things you actually have really good genetics and you still even know you are worlds apart from the likes of Phil Heath. Every sport or activity has people who are potentially great and others who are awful no matter how hard they work. The genetic spectrum is huge so I am well aware some guys simply don't have the genes to grow really big and lean no matter what they do. Others can get to 240 at 5ft 8 and lean. Others can get to 270 at 5ft 8 and lean. My main point is I don't think most people have done the extremes so they can't really say what their limit is and many use "genetics" as an excuse. At the same time genetics is 100% a valid excuse and just look at Flex Lewis's and Dennis Wolf's calves as a prime example of that.
 
One thing I do find is a lot of people who say they dont have genetics actually do (maybe not elite genetics, but sure better than many), and it doesnt allow them to see that other people actually dont. Not saying those people didnt work their asses off, I'm sure a great many did. And I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who do use the genetics thing as a cop out.

At the end of the day you are dealt the hand you're dealt. The only one who's going to know whether or not you put in the work is you.

YOU can do what YOU can do with your genetic makeup and the stress YOU'RE willing to put on your body. That's all there is to it.

Look at the variances in the height of people. If there is that much genetic variance in height how could it not be exactly the same for muscle accrual?

There are some things in this world that you can't simply overcome by hardwork. Trust me, I hate saying that. Hard work will take you far and can transform your life but there is simply some places out there that it cant take you.

Will working out, diet and peds make you the best you can be? Fuck ya, put in the work and watch the magic happen! But you are you and you can only be the best YOU.

Of course. I think this whole thread is a good topic but it's so obvious as well. I agree with everything you stated. Of course loads of guys think they have bad genetics and their genetics are decent. Many have self esteem issues but others are just comparing themselves to top pro's and can see the huge difference but don't realize there are actually guys far worse off than they are as well. It's works everyway. Some are genetically blessed and they want it to be known and others don't because they think it downplays their effort.

I am also well aware of where I am in the genetics department. For bodybuilding I truly have bad genetics. For looking good on a beach I probably have great genetics. Well not great but I was naturally very skinny and lean and I would go through so many calories as a teenager just not be skinny (I failed). So a fast metabolism is a good thing in general life. I am tall and I am naturally lean so for the general public that is great. Now for competing on a bodybuilding stage my genetics are awful. I have no interest in competing anyway but even if a drugged myself and done everything right for 20 years I could never win a good show so there would be no point in competing.

Many guys think others don't understand how hard it is but because of their mentality they also don't realize their overall plan is actually really shit and they lack consistency in most areas. Others just push it that extra bit harder because they know they have to. Everyone is different. As they say you can outwork genetics to a point but if genetics even put some effort in (depends upon the gap between the two) they simply win. Now as you state some guys simply have awful genetics and I have come across a few of them. It must be annoying. It's a bit like me and my calves but it's their whole body. My calves have slightly improved in 20 years of abuse but if I take a few weeks off they instantly lose 10% so go back to normal :eek::D
 
A couple of thoughts.. One phenomenon I've noticed,and I think other's have mentioned, is the big fish in a small pond concept. I lifted in a couple of gyms where I was one of the biggest and strongest lifters. People thought I was freaky. After awhile being there you start to actually feel that way. Then you move to a new hard-core gym and you feel small. A lot of it is perception.

Some guys might feel like they have peaked out, but then being with other guys superior to you motivates you to push harder. I always liked working out with guys bigger and stronger than me. Training with Parillo was like that. The guy he was training was an employee that was a strong powerlifter. He was squating up around 800 lbs. I think training next to him was great motivation for me. Little things like that can help you advance. I remember at the time I had plateaued with my legs and was able to break out.

One thing that eventually brings your gains to a hault is age. I do believe everyone should top out their maximum size before age comes into play, that is as long as they are pushing hard from a young age. Old folks can take up training and make great gains if they've never trained hard before.
 
A couple of thoughts.. One phenomenon I've noticed,and I think other's have mentioned, is the big fish in a small pond concept. I lifted in a couple of gyms where I was one of the biggest and strongest lifters. People thought I was freaky. After awhile being there you start to actually feel that way. Then you move to a new hard-core gym and you feel small. A lot of it is perception.

Some guys might feel like they have peaked out, but then being with other guys superior to you motivates you to push harder. I always liked working out with guys bigger and stronger than me. Training with Parillo was like that. The guy he was training was an employee that was a strong powerlifter. He was squating up around 800 lbs. I think training next to him was great motivation for me. Little things like that can help you advance. I remember at the time I had plateaued with my legs and was able to break out.

One thing that eventually brings your gains to a hault is age. I do believe everyone should top out their maximum size before age comes into play, that is as long as they are pushing hard from a young age. Old folks can take up training and make great gains if they've never trained hard before.

Pops always used to say it's never a good thing to be the best around at whatever you do

The more people you see incline pressing 405, squatting 500+ lbs, Rowing 4 plates, Doing Dips with 200 lbs; the better it is for your lifting psyche as your mind stops putting limitations...for some guys though, that's a huge blow to their ego.

Everyone here knows that one guy who postures around the gym when big guys are around
 
It's your thread but my posts aren't really directed towards you because I have pretty much agreed with everything you have written in this thread. You simply get it and I actually agree with your thoughts on this. My thoughts aren't much different I am just highlighting the extremes. I feel when discussing the ultimate size and strength you have to be extreme. The guys who are the best are usually the ones most obsessed and will do anything to attain their goals. Forget about genetics I am talking about holding as much muscle as possible... that is hard work no matter who you are. You have been there and done it so you know. So many points but I will try to keep it brief (I failed :eek:).

I will use you as an example because you mention your details and what you noticed in yourself. You state you have had 8k cals but for how long? Didn't you have a massive break from competing and I assume you mainly just tried to maintain good condition in that break? Didn't you even come off all cycles? So to me if someone hasn't been progressively eating and drugging themselves for many many years straight they haven't really pushed the boundaries into the maximum size they can attain. Again we are talking extremes here and the biggest they could ever make themselves. We can create new set points and our bodies adapt even if there is a ceiling limit. Maybe I am wrong as aren't you about 50 so you could have been hitting it hard for 10+ years.

You wrote yourself though you didn't abuse drugs. Did you use 10-20iu slin with every meal of the day, loads of hgh and 5+ grams of gear for many years with minimal breaks in drugs. My point is there are extremes to this. Some of these guys inject themselves with 100ml oil daily when 99.9% of the population couldn't even do that is they were paid. I am merely commenting on the topic of has everyone exhausted all possibilties in their pursuit of maximum size. When guys on here write they tried everything and they couldn't grow past 230/250/270/290 etc did they really do everything they could have. As you allude to some don't need to excessively abuse to attain freak status if their genetics are that great. There are plenty of freaks who don't even have to eat that much (compared to most) to get to 300 pounds. However that is coming back to individual genetics. Fact is most of the freaks walking around over 350 pounds lean are living a life of abuse. Plus if x person can be 270 and lean on a moderate cycle and no insulin and 4000 cals per day what could he be on double all of that.

I also don't want you to take my post the wrong way because I 100% understand there is a limit and when guys get closer to that limit things just get harder and harder. Meaning you could have reached your 242 doing what you did. You could have started eating 200g more protein and done 1.5g extra test for 1 year straight and got to 248 lean. Then you could have upped things even more and really abused and only added 2 pounds in another 2 years. Many often go backwards when they start adding in more drugs due to the toxicity. So it's not just use and eat more and grow more because we all know it just stops eventually.

I agree with everything you state. You have been there and done it so my post isn't really directed to you. You built a great physique and was big and lean but again I am talking extremes and about getting as big as possible. You don't think you could have got to 270 and not fat with loads of hgh, slin and carbs? There are guys who don't have great genetics who have reached 300 pounds at a very low height because they just grinded and abused drugs and food in the process.

What you state is obviously true because look at all the pro's who are elite and they get to a stage were they pretty much don't ever grow again and just refine and often lose size. None of them very rarely just continue to grow and grow unless they had serious issues with consistency or they were taking low doses at the start and they upped aas and added in slin and more food etc.

From the looks of things you actually have really good genetics and you still even know you are worlds apart from the likes of Phil Heath. Every sport or activity has people who are potentially great and others who are awful no matter how hard they work. The genetic spectrum is huge so I am well aware some guys simply don't have the genes to grow really big and lean no matter what they do. Others can get to 240 at 5ft 8 and lean. Others can get to 270 at 5ft 8 and lean. My main point is I don't think most people have done the extremes so they can't really say what their limit is and many use "genetics" as an excuse. At the same time genetics is 100% a valid excuse and just look at Flex Lewis's and Dennis Wolf's calves as a prime example of that.


Thanks for the thoughtful post, and I do not in anyway take what you are saying as negative.

I did the high-calorie, 2x a day things from maybe mid 1989 after I did the teen Nationals to 91 for the size as I sought success in the open classes.
I stopped because after a year or so, changes stopped and discomfort increased. My strength topped out then as well.
Key measurements like arms never budged, but my waist was not a svelte, even considering off-season BF and stomach contents.
My legs were big for the day, and probably could have gotten bigger. My back is better now at 50, so perhaps a few more pounds there.
I think 250 off-season was my limit, so 210-225 on stage.

I was off gear from 91~ to 95, lost 15-20lbs, did an 8-week cycle of Durateston and Hemogenin and put on 20+ in 1995.
Competed drug-free in 1998.
I was off till some PH use in 2006-7, then 2008 when I moved to Japan and later discovered PM.
I have been on mostly since. You all know where I am at now. I can probably hit 240 with gear, AAS, and Insulin; my legs are gone.

Maybe more gear or GH would have helped at 20-21.
I was on pharma Test, Deca, Anavar, Anadrol, some Primo, Equibold, or Parabolan. That was my whole toolbox.
I don't know what GH would have added as only protropin was available then , and I wasn't willing to pay for that.

I didn't like high drug use, and more than that I thought it should not be required if you have the "right" genes, as I think response to AAS is one of those characteristics required for someone to exceed moderately big size with good shape.
Again I think great genes is a convergence of all desirable aspects; I one needs to over-compensate with high drug use, they are limited by their genes. Most won't even be able to achieve exceptional levels of muscularity with rampant abuse of drugs.

At the time in the 1990s I trained in hard core gyms and had friends who trained hard and ate well but didn't progress.
My training partner was a good example. Nothing he did moved the dial much.
He busted his ass, ate a storm and did all the gear I could supply him with.
I have a similar close friend now; he barely makes progress on more shit than me.

I will also say that I honestly don't believe many (not all) top pros took/take all that much because they were so gifted.
Because of who I associated with I knew that Paul DeMayo for example didn't use all that much; we drank from the same well.
I believe the old Tom Platz interview doses, as well as what Fouad, Luke, and Seth had shared in podcasts.

I think if someone needs grams and grams of gear, not only will they risk their health, but they won't be putting on quality muscle.
I see a lot of fascination with scale weights in the past 20 years or so, and the people I see at 240/250/260 at 5'9" or under look nowhere near where the should IMO. I think 10-20+lbs is internal bloat, fluff, and food.

This is ALL only my opinion. I probably sound like a crotchety old man by now:p
 
Pops always used to say it's never a good thing to be the best around at whatever you do

The more people you see incline pressing 405, squatting 500+ lbs, Rowing 4 plates, Doing Dips with 200 lbs; the better it is for your lifting psyche as your mind stops putting limitations...for some guys though, that's a huge blow to their ego.

Everyone here knows that one guy who postures around the gym when big guys are around


This was why I drove from the South Shore to the North Shore; Everett, MA. Gold's Gym every few weeks in the 1990s.
There were a lot of good bodybuilders up there.

Squatting next to Paul DeMayo was humbling and motivating at the same time.
 
Of course. I was just giving 1 example of someone who is pushing the boundaries. He has gone way overboard with seo like many do but he is still legit huge. I completely agree. He wouldn't look nowhere as big without the seo but the point is he is a name that popped in my head because he is pushing the seo and he is pushing trying to look as big as possible. Very few have that mentality and are willing to go that extreme. My posts in this thread have meant many things because it a broad subject but one thing is guys don't have to look good. Most guys the bigger they get the worse they look. Even genetic marvels they look much better on stage with a tighter waist then if bulking and a bloated 300+ pounds. Nevermind someone who doesn't even have a great shape to begin with and is literally just abusing their body in every way possible (food, aas, hgh, slin, seo etc) to get as big as possible.

That part of that post was mainly just about people who are actually pushing it. You have guys who think they have pushed the size to the max and the most calories they have ate is about 4000 per day and they weighed very little. I am against force feeding for many reasons but if someone's goal was to get as big as humanly possible (no matter what) that should be a daily thing. Even guys who have pushed it there are not many who have done it to the extreme and I went over some basic reasons why 99.9% of us don't do that. Most don't even like the huge or freak look. Even guys who love it no one really wants to be taking their body to the extreme because it's not fun and well just so many obvious reasons (effort required, health problems. guaranteed early death etc).
I understand what you were trying to say and I agree. I just wanted to point out the previously mentioned discrepancy in many SEO users.
 
Got a plumber here today that looks to be maybe 30 years old and built like a tank. Probably about 6 foot 2 and around 300 lbs. Looks like a competitve strongman. Asked him if lifts and he said he did a long time ago. So pretty much born like that. Dude could train force months and probably out lift guys that trained for years. Arms look like they are 20 inch now.
 
One of the most frequent signs (aside from the obvious ones) associated with massive SEO abuse is that the chests of SEO abusers are almost always about HALF the size they should be, relative to the rest of their body.
"Golem" is no exception.

I want to see a guy with a quality chest (no SEO's) that is as freaky big as some of the SEO-loaded arms and delts we see out there. However, we have never seen that because if SEO were used in the chest, to the same degree we see i he arms and delts, it would look like shit.

So, when attempting to discern the true upper-limit of muscle growth (with the drugs currently available to us), we should look at the biggest chests (and backs) of today's bodybuilders, as those bodyparts are, generally speaking, a much better indicator than the arms or delts. If you look at Golem in front shots (with no pump), the discrepancy between his chest and arms/delts is glaring. If he had never used any SEO's, I think we would be seeing a MUCH smaller version of Golem that we currently do. We saw the same thing with Rich Piana--massive arms and delts but a comparatively poor chest.
Marcus Ruhl had the chest to go with the arms and delts!
 

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