It's your thread but my posts aren't really directed towards you because I have pretty much agreed with everything you have written in this thread. You simply get it and I actually agree with your thoughts on this. My thoughts aren't much different I am just highlighting the extremes. I feel when discussing the ultimate size and strength you have to be extreme. The guys who are the best are usually the ones most obsessed and will do anything to attain their goals. Forget about genetics I am talking about holding as much muscle as possible... that is hard work no matter who you are. You have been there and done it so you know. So many points but I will try to keep it brief (I failed
).
I will use you as an example because you mention your details and what you noticed in yourself. You state you have had 8k cals but for how long? Didn't you have a massive break from competing and I assume you mainly just tried to maintain good condition in that break? Didn't you even come off all cycles? So to me if someone hasn't been progressively eating and drugging themselves for many many years straight they haven't really pushed the boundaries into the maximum size they can attain. Again we are talking extremes here and the biggest they could ever make themselves. We can create new set points and our bodies adapt even if there is a ceiling limit. Maybe I am wrong as aren't you about 50 so you could have been hitting it hard for 10+ years.
You wrote yourself though you didn't abuse drugs. Did you use 10-20iu slin with every meal of the day, loads of hgh and 5+ grams of gear for many years with minimal breaks in drugs. My point is there are extremes to this. Some of these guys inject themselves with 100ml oil daily when 99.9% of the population couldn't even do that is they were paid. I am merely commenting on the topic of has everyone exhausted all possibilties in their pursuit of maximum size. When guys on here write they tried everything and they couldn't grow past 230/250/270/290 etc did they really do everything they could have. As you allude to some don't need to excessively abuse to attain freak status if their genetics are that great. There are plenty of freaks who don't even have to eat that much (compared to most) to get to 300 pounds. However that is coming back to individual genetics. Fact is most of the freaks walking around over 350 pounds lean are living a life of abuse. Plus if x person can be 270 and lean on a moderate cycle and no insulin and 4000 cals per day what could he be on double all of that.
I also don't want you to take my post the wrong way because I 100% understand there is a limit and when guys get closer to that limit things just get harder and harder. Meaning you could have reached your 242 doing what you did. You could have started eating 200g more protein and done 1.5g extra test for 1 year straight and got to 248 lean. Then you could have upped things even more and really abused and only added 2 pounds in another 2 years. Many often go backwards when they start adding in more drugs due to the toxicity. So it's not just use and eat more and grow more because we all know it just stops eventually.
I agree with everything you state. You have been there and done it so my post isn't really directed to you. You built a great physique and was big and lean but again I am talking extremes and about getting as big as possible. You don't think you could have got to 270 and not fat with loads of hgh, slin and carbs? There are guys who don't have great genetics who have reached 300 pounds at a very low height because they just grinded and abused drugs and food in the process.
What you state is obviously true because look at all the pro's who are elite and they get to a stage were they pretty much don't ever grow again and just refine and often lose size. None of them very rarely just continue to grow and grow unless they had serious issues with consistency or they were taking low doses at the start and they upped aas and added in slin and more food etc.
From the looks of things you actually have really good genetics and you still even know you are worlds apart from the likes of Phil Heath. Every sport or activity has people who are potentially great and others who are awful no matter how hard they work. The genetic spectrum is huge so I am well aware some guys simply don't have the genes to grow really big and lean no matter what they do. Others can get to 240 at 5ft 8 and lean. Others can get to 270 at 5ft 8 and lean. My main point is I don't think most people have done the extremes so they can't really say what their limit is and many use "genetics" as an excuse. At the same time genetics is 100% a valid excuse and just look at Flex Lewis's and Dennis Wolf's calves as a prime example of that.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, and I do not in anyway take what you are saying as negative.
I did the high-calorie, 2x a day things from maybe mid 1989 after I did the teen Nationals to 91 for the size as I sought success in the open classes.
I stopped because after a year or so, changes stopped and discomfort increased. My strength topped out then as well.
Key measurements like arms never budged, but my waist was not a svelte, even considering off-season BF and stomach contents.
My legs were big for the day, and probably could have gotten bigger. My back is better now at 50, so perhaps a few more pounds there.
I think 250 off-season was my limit, so 210-225 on stage.
I was off gear from 91~ to 95, lost 15-20lbs, did an 8-week cycle of Durateston and Hemogenin and put on 20+ in 1995.
Competed drug-free in 1998.
I was off till some PH use in 2006-7, then 2008 when I moved to Japan and later discovered PM.
I have been on mostly since. You all know where I am at now. I can probably hit 240 with gear, AAS, and Insulin; my legs are gone.
Maybe more gear or GH would have helped at 20-21.
I was on pharma Test, Deca, Anavar, Anadrol, some Primo, Equibold, or Parabolan. That was my whole toolbox.
I don't know what GH would have added as only protropin was available then , and I wasn't willing to pay for that.
I didn't like high drug use, and more than that I thought it should not be required if you have the "right" genes, as I think response to AAS is one of those characteristics required for someone to exceed moderately big size with good shape.
Again I think great genes is a convergence of all desirable aspects; I one needs to over-compensate with high drug use, they are limited by their genes. Most won't even be able to achieve exceptional levels of muscularity with rampant abuse of drugs.
At the time in the 1990s I trained in hard core gyms and had friends who trained hard and ate well but didn't progress.
My training partner was a good example. Nothing he did moved the dial much.
He busted his ass, ate a storm and did all the gear I could supply him with.
I have a similar close friend now; he barely makes progress on more shit than me.
I will also say that I honestly don't believe many (not all) top pros took/take all that much because they were so gifted.
Because of who I associated with I knew that Paul DeMayo for example didn't use all that much; we drank from the same well.
I believe the old Tom Platz interview doses, as well as what Fouad, Luke, and Seth had shared in podcasts.
I think if someone needs grams and grams of gear, not only will they risk their health, but they won't be putting on quality muscle.
I see a lot of fascination with scale weights in the past 20 years or so, and the people I see at 240/250/260 at 5'9" or under look nowhere near where the should IMO. I think 10-20+lbs is internal bloat, fluff, and food.
This is ALL only my opinion. I probably sound like a crotchety old man by now