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things that harm/help kidneys the most

qbkilla

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Figured with a few recent threads on Kidneys this would be a good idea since I don't want to turn someones personal thread Ito a general kidney thread


Bad things

- High BP (known)
-Diabetes (known)
- Eating too much protein (if they are already compromised which I would assume MOST of us kidneys are to some degree)
-Dehydration (known)
- Creatinine. Not sure the mechanism but I have seen many places this is bad for kidneys, correct me if I am wrong

Questionable things
- AAS (or do they only harm them indirectly by increasing BP? etc)

Specific AAS
- Ive heard orals are the worst, is this confirmed or speculation? I know they are harder on the liver, but does any oral medication taken automatically harm the kidneys? I know HIV patients can take drol or var at high dosages for long periods of time, I question this.
- Tren and EQ. I don't personally see how they would be worse than say high test, deca. I do think they could be, as we consider tren more "toxic" but is it? Or is this bro science?
- My proteinuria was at its absolute worst on anavar, then improved when I stopped the var. I have read a few posts over the years where people speculated var is really bad for the kidneys I can't remember exactly why.

- Clen/ephedra/stimulants? If they raise BP yes, but if you keep BP under control, do they actually harm kidneys?

- Non natural protein. I had a doctor tell me to stop taking supplemental protein and creatinine and my creatinine would drop when I got re-tested, she was correct. She said this is consistent with what she sees in her crossfire athletes (drop artificial protein and creatinine then re-test, and creatinine levels lower).


Things that may help

- astragalus? I am a known anti-suppment guy but this one has me interested. Why has more research not been done/. I have read some things along the lines "it may just drop your creatinine levels and not actually help kidneys". I personally don't buy this, I would think if it is actually lowering creatinine and eliminating protein in urine it is helping the kidneys, I can't see how it could "mask helping" them? Im defiantly plan to try it per the other thread

- Losing weight and doing cardio (obvious)

- Proper sodium/potassium balance? I've read this should be 1:1. When I had some very high creatinine levels my doctors associated it with me driving way too much water that summer and flushing out too much sodium. Once I stopped, things improved. Should people with kidney worries watch sodium and potassium? What balance should we go for?



Feel free to add anything or comment on anything you disagree or agree with that I wrote.
 

thethinker48

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"Although the potential effects of AASs on renal function have not been well characterized in humans, several studies suggest that androgens may exert a direct toxic effect on glomerular cells, leading to mesangial matrix accumulation and podocyte depletion independent of structural-functional adaptations"

Secondary FSGS from long term AAS use is what Fakhri Mubarak suffers from as well. So directly (hypertension), and through these pathways as well.

The russian roulette that guys (and coaches) play with diuretic use pre-show is also not great, some have gone into acute kidney failure through dimwitted protocols.
 

thethinker48

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"These patients may present with either asymptomatic proteinuria or full nephrotic syndrome and heterogeneous histologic variants of FSGS. Although these patients responded well to discontinuation of AAS use, weight loss, and RAS blockade, others may progress to ESRD. Elevated lean body mass and long-term AAS abuse should be added to the list of causes of secondary FSGS."

In a small segment of the population, it is a role of dice (those genetically inclined to this)
 

qbkilla

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Interesting, good stuff. I wonder how AAS abuse compares to say alcohol or rec drugs when it comes to harming the kidneys? You never really hear about alcoholics or drug addicts with kidney problems? Maybe I just see the affects of AAS on them because I read the forums and we are actually somewhat health conscious. I wonder if any mens physique, or athletes in general who keep at a lower bodyweight, but still use a ton of AAS, have issues.

Meaning is it only the big guys (220 plus) or do 180,190,200lb physique type guys who im sure abuse AAS, diuretics, etc hav kidney issues?
 

Swifto

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I believe they are directly nephrotoxic too.

"Renal biopsies revealed acute tubular necrosis. Four weeks after discontinuing injections and supplements, serum creatinine was in the normal range and estimated glomerular filtration rate > 1.00 mL/s (60 mL/min), including two patients with biopsies showing >30% interstitial fibrosis and tubular atrophy. The findings highlight a risk for acute and potentially chronic kidney injury among young men abusing anabolic steroids and using excessive amounts of nutritional supplements."

"Recent evidence indicates that anabolic steroids are directly toxic to glomeruli and that segmental sclerosis is the result of podocyte loss mediated by apoptosis through a podocyte androgen receptor"

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4515889/

"In order to increase bioavailability and enable oral administration, 17-α-alkylation of AAS molecules has been performed. Stanozolol, one of the most frequently used AAS, is an example of a 17-α-alkylated androgen. However, these steroids are known to be hepatotoxic and cases of severe cholestasis associated with AKI have been reported.47, 48 Bile acid nephropathy is thought to be the pathophysiologic mechanism of renal impairment in these patients"

"In AAS abuse, glomerular and interstitial damage occur by direct renal toxicity, glomerular hyperfiltration and hypercalcemia"

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0211699519301419
 

gotgame

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I believe they are directly nephrotoxic too.

"Renal biopsies revealed acute tubular necrosis. Four weeks after discontinuing injections and supplements, serum creatinine was in the normal range and estimated glomerular filtration rate > 1.00 mL/s (60 mL/min), including two patients with biopsies showing >30% interstitial fibrosis and tubular atrophy. The findings highlight a risk for acute and potentially chronic kidney injury among young men abusing anabolic steroids and using excessive amounts of nutritional supplements."

"Recent evidence indicates that anabolic steroids are directly toxic to glomeruli and that segmental sclerosis is the result of podocyte loss mediated by apoptosis through a podocyte androgen receptor"

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4515889/

"In order to increase bioavailability and enable oral administration, 17-α-alkylation of AAS molecules has been performed. Stanozolol, one of the most frequently used AAS, is an example of a 17-α-alkylated androgen. However, these steroids are known to be hepatotoxic and cases of severe cholestasis associated with AKI have been reported.47, 48 Bile acid nephropathy is thought to be the pathophysiologic mechanism of renal impairment in these patients"

"In AAS abuse, glomerular and interstitial damage occur by direct renal toxicity, glomerular hyperfiltration and hypercalcemia"

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0211699519301419

Yup ive seen this quite a few times. Many people think that AAS usage as it pertains to kidney problems is from blood pressue but ive seen a lot of renal biopsy results in younger guys ( 30's early 40's) with glomerulosclerosis in a setting of mostly normal blood pressure ( ofcourse i cant say they always had perfect blood pressure) and was likey from steroid usage.

You may ask how the heck do i get involved with this nonsense. Well often times my patient population in nyc area had a lot of steroid users. When they would come into the hospital to get scanned the techs would sometimes tell me they had a bodybuilder getting a renal scan so my office was close by and id pop on over to take a look. Commonly id offer to do the renal biopsy and then id follow up and discuss with pathology after.

I have no way of saying which steroids are worse based on what i saw but i believe its directly related to degree of androgen binding. So in my opinion high doses and things like say tren would be worse.

To limit renal damage keep blood pressure in check, dont get insulin resistance ( direct glycolation of proteins) from high blood glucose levels, dont do things which may restrict renal blood flow like prolonged use of nsaids, keep protein to somewhat reasonable amounts, use dont abuse steroids.

Since this is a bodybuilding forum and the above will likely fall on mosty deaf ears at least get regular blood work and urinalysis so you can catch it early and then hopefully stop the progression. Continuing down the same path once you are already getting renal damage is just complete stupidity. Taking a renal supplement and putting your head in the sand is not going to end well for you which is unfortunately what i see people doing in some of these posts about GFR and kidneys
 

thethinker48

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Yup ive seen this quite a few times. Many people think that AAS usage as it pertains to kidney problems is from blood pressue but ive seen a lot of renal biopsy results in younger guys ( 30's early 40's) with glomerulosclerosis in a setting of mostly normal blood pressure ( ofcourse i cant say they always had perfect blood pressure) and was likey from steroid usage.

You may ask how the heck do i get involved with this nonsense. Well often times my patient population in nyc area had a lot of steroid users. When they would come into the hospital to get scanned the techs would sometimes tell me they had a bodybuilder getting a renal scan so my office was close by and id pop on over to take a look. Commonly id offer to do the renal biopsy and then id follow up and discuss with pathology after.

I have no way of saying which steroids are worse based on what i saw but i believe its directly related to degree of androgen binding. So in my opinion high doses and things like say tren would be worse.

To limit renal damage keep blood pressure in check, dont get insulin resistance ( direct glycolation of proteins) from high blood glucose levels, dont do things which may restrict renal blood flow like prolonged use of nsaids, keep protein to somewhat reasonable amounts, use dont abuse steroids.

Since this is a bodybuilding forum and the above will likely fall on mosty deaf ears at least get regular blood work and urinalysis so you can catch it early and then hopefully stop the progression. Continuing down the same path once you are already getting renal damage is just complete stupidity. Taking a renal supplement and putting your head in the sand is not going to end well for you which is unfortunately what i see people doing in some of these posts about GFR and kidneys

It's good to have you posting here again
 

gotgame

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It's good to have you posting here again

quarantine... work, foodshopping, time with woman and dog, backyard workout, home depot projects and occasionally sign into bbing forums to discuss medical topics. not many options for other activities at the moment lol
 

IronLion2

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Things that are hard on your kidneys:

All these garbage OTC supplements yall constantly flush throw your system
 

tokon

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Yup ive seen this quite a few times. Many people think that AAS usage as it pertains to kidney problems is from blood pressue but ive seen a lot of renal biopsy results in younger guys ( 30's early 40's) with glomerulosclerosis in a setting of mostly normal blood pressure ( ofcourse i cant say they always had perfect blood pressure) and was likey from steroid usage.

You may ask how the heck do i get involved with this nonsense. Well often times my patient population in nyc area had a lot of steroid users. When they would come into the hospital to get scanned the techs would sometimes tell me they had a bodybuilder getting a renal scan so my office was close by and id pop on over to take a look. Commonly id offer to do the renal biopsy and then id follow up and discuss with pathology after.

I have no way of saying which steroids are worse based on what i saw but i believe its directly related to degree of androgen binding. So in my opinion high doses and things like say tren would be worse.

To limit renal damage keep blood pressure in check, dont get insulin resistance ( direct glycolation of proteins) from high blood glucose levels, dont do things which may restrict renal blood flow like prolonged use of nsaids, keep protein to somewhat reasonable amounts, use dont abuse steroids.

Since this is a bodybuilding forum and the above will likely fall on mosty deaf ears at least get regular blood work and urinalysis so you can catch it early and then hopefully stop the progression. Continuing down the same path once you are already getting renal damage is just complete stupidity. Taking a renal supplement and putting your head in the sand is not going to end well for you which is unfortunately what i see people doing in some of these posts about GFR and kidneys


any guideline as to what would constitute "somewhat reasonable amounts" of protein for, let's say, a 200lb guy?
 

Swifto

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Things that are hard on your kidneys:

All these garbage OTC supplements yall constantly flush throw your system

Examples please?
 

qbkilla

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Examples please?

I'd assume he is probably referring to things like creatine, pre workout stimulants, beta alanine, protein powders, BCAA and eaa, the stuff that lines the shelves of any gnc and the fillers and stuff added.
 

Bobik

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Yup ive seen this quite a few times. Many people think that AAS usage as it pertains to kidney problems is from blood pressue but ive seen a lot of renal biopsy results in younger guys ( 30's early 40's) with glomerulosclerosis in a setting of mostly normal blood pressure ( ofcourse i cant say they always had perfect blood pressure) and was likey from steroid usage.

You may ask how the heck do i get involved with this nonsense. Well often times my patient population in nyc area had a lot of steroid users. When they would come into the hospital to get scanned the techs would sometimes tell me they had a bodybuilder getting a renal scan so my office was close by and id pop on over to take a look. Commonly id offer to do the renal biopsy and then id follow up and discuss with pathology after.

I have no way of saying which steroids are worse based on what i saw but i believe its directly related to degree of androgen binding. So in my opinion high doses and things like say tren would be worse.

To limit renal damage keep blood pressure in check, dont get insulin resistance ( direct glycolation of proteins) from high blood glucose levels, dont do things which may restrict renal blood flow like prolonged use of nsaids, keep protein to somewhat reasonable amounts, use dont abuse steroids.

Since this is a bodybuilding forum and the above will likely fall on mosty deaf ears at least get regular blood work and urinalysis so you can catch it early and then hopefully stop the progression. Continuing down the same path once you are already getting renal damage is just complete stupidity. Taking a renal supplement and putting your head in the sand is not going to end well for you which is unfortunately what i see people doing in some of these posts about GFR and kidneys
Is it possible to have creatinine low, but the kidneys may not work properly? or you always need to do a GFR. thank you for answer
 

Swifto

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........
 

Swifto

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I'd assume he is probably referring to things like creatine, pre workout stimulants, beta alanine, protein powders, BCAA and eaa, the stuff that lines the shelves of any gnc and the fillers and stuff added.

Ah I see. Thanks.
 

qbkilla

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Is it possible to have creatinine low, but the kidneys may not work properly? or you always need to do a GFR. thank you for answer

This is a good question. Also wonder what it would mean if creatinine is fine, but protein is in urine?
 

gotgame

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Is it possible to have creatinine low, but the kidneys may not work properly? or you always need to do a GFR. thank you for answer

well the GFR that most guys are referring to is the EGFR from there blood work. So it just uses an estimated one based on creatinine levels. Im not sure which formula is most commonly used these days but the CG and the MDRD either has creatinine on the bottom or a negative exponent soooo its just a formula so if creatinine was lower then EGFR would higher on those.

Umm...i can imagine a situation were systemically your creatinine levels are lower such as liver issues or muscle wasting etc so then your creatinine levels are lower but ofcourse you could still have renal issues. I am not a renal expert and i dont stay up to date on all the literature so there may be some pathologies im not aware of, i dont google things before replying ( nor do i proof read my typing hence all the typos lol)

Remember...creatinine is just an INDIRECT way of looking at renal function. Its simply used because its freely filtered and mostly not secreted or absorbed in the tubules ( lil bit is secreted so its not perfect).
 

gotgame

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This is a good question. Also wonder what it would mean if creatinine is fine, but protein is in urine?


I believe you had mentioned a condition earlier which can cause that such as infection. so thats taking place past the glomerulus and hence your getting cells in your urine. commonly though while it may show high protein levels on a urine dip it will come back with positive whites cells so it shouldnt be too confusing to know that its coming from an infection.

There are situations were creatinine is still WNL but you get some micro amounts of protein in ur urine. We use this with diabetics to catch renal issues early and it would be the same with bodybuilders. so creatinine is still OK ( its a range) but protein becoming present as some parts of the filter is breaking down

I dont want to see protein in my urine. Bodybuilders dont get routine physicals often enough but if you do go for one make sure u get a urinalysis
 

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