Those who like Peptopro...

[Adonis89]

Well you can get 2.2 pounds of luecine malate from tn's facebook page right now for 25 bucks, and 1 pound of peptopro is 24 bucks and that would last a long time. Personally, i dont think you would ever need to go over about 12-15 grams of peptopro with and additional 2-3 grams of luecine. Personally, I get great results with 12 grams of peptopro intraworkout with 70 grams of karboload, and then 50 grams of karboload with 40 grams of isolate post workout

Just out of curiosity, why not add BCAA (all three) instead of just the leucine?

 

[Knight9]

Just out of curiosity, why not add BCAA (all three) instead of just the leucine?

Isoleucine and valine don't do much at all and compete for uptake.

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[Knight9]

ya VPX has two products that are basically the same but one has stims for "pre-workout" and one without stims for "intra-workout". They both contain 20g of pepto-pro and they taste pretty darn good...especially since pepto pro tastes like an orange peel.

I know this...but I dont think it made sense to the original post.

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[Google&Pubmed]

I know this...but I dont think it made sense to the original post.

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Oooooooooooh okay. I thought you just didn't know about them lol. Sorry about that. Please carry on

 

[heavyhitter]

Isoleucine and valine don't do much at all and compete for uptake.

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Yes, this. Honestly, I don't know that you would even need the additional leucine if doing pepto during and isolate before and after. But luecine is actually pretty cheap when adding it to something like peptopro since you would only need a few grams and all these studies are showing that supposedly it is one of the main drivers of protein synthesis so.......

 

[Adonis89]

Isoleucine and valine don't do much at all and compete for uptake.

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Interesting. Thanks. I had actually heard the opposite - that isoleucine and valine were key somehow for leucine to do it's job. Probably supplement marketing hype - haven't really looked into it.

Yes, this. Honestly, I don't know that you would even need the additional leucine if doing pepto during and isolate before and after. But luecine is actually pretty cheap when adding it to something like peptopro since you would only need a few grams and all these studies are showing that supposedly it is one of the main drivers of protein synthesis so.......

That's a good point. I don't use protein powders, just food, so I guess what's why i looked at the leucine content of peptopro. I'm sure this minutia won't make much of a difference in practice, but you're right - the extra leucine for piece of mind is cheap enough.

 

[flexdurden]

Yes, this. Honestly, I don't know that you would even need the additional leucine if doing pepto during and isolate before and after. But luecine is actually pretty cheap when adding it to something like peptopro since you would only need a few grams and all these studies are showing that supposedly it is one of the main drivers of protein synthesis so.......

Isoleucine and valine don't do much at all and compete for uptake.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

I was under the impression that when all of the EAAs were present they worked synergistically. I know studies have shown that when just the BCAAs are present and there is too much isoleucine and valine in comparison to leucine they do hinder the uptake of leucine. But other research has shown that they are needed to leucine to properly do it's job...

Knight, can you shed some light on this for me? Thanks

 

[heavyhitter]

Here's a little bit. Lots more studies if you want them.

Leucine triggers muscle growth
by Jeff S. Volek, Ph.D., R.D.
How much do you need of this branched chain amino acid to get results?

Researchers have known about leucine for decades, but exciting new research has shed a new and broader light on this important health-promoting amino acid. Much of protein’s benefits may be attributable to leucine due to its ability to stimulate protein synthesis, help turn on the body’s switch to build muscle and spare muscle when dieting.

Leucine is an essential BCAA

Leucine is an essential amino acid, which simply means our bodies cannot produce it and we must get it from dietary sources. Leucine is the most abundant of the three branched chain amino acids (BCAAs) in muscles (the other two are isoleucine and valine). BCAAs make up a high proportion of the amino acids in muscle. They are unique because they are the only amino acids burned by muscles as fuel; thus, both blood and muscle levels of BCAAs decrease after exercise.

In the past, researchers viewed amino acids simply as substances needed to make muscle and other body proteins—sort of like the bricks needed to build a house. In the case of leucine, recent investigations have shown this amino acid has multiple roles that go well beyond simply providing material to build muscle.

Leucine stimulates protein synthesis to build muscle Figure 1.

Whether you’re interested in building muscle or preventing muscle loss that normally occurs during dieting and aging, stimulating protein synthesis is absolutely key. Most people know that consuming protein induces an increase in muscle protein synthesis, which is why protein supplements are popular to consume after exercise. Now researchers are refining their knowledge on why protein stimulates anabolism (building up) in muscle. Scientists have shown it is the level of amino acids in the blood that directly boosts protein synthesis in muscles. In particular, the amino acid leucine is most highly related to protein synthesis (Figure 1).

In a series of elaborate experiments, researchers directly examined muscle protein synthesis after feeding animals various formulations of amino acids and compared them to glucose ingestion. When a complete protein (one that contains all the amino acids) was consumed, protein synthesis increased. When just essential amino acids were consumed without non-essential amino acids, the same increase was noted indicating non-essential amino acids are not required to stimulate protein synthesis. When only BCAAs were consumed, there was again the same increase in protein synthesis. Finally when just leucine was consumed, protein synthesis still increased to the same magnitude. These findings provided strong evidence that leucine was the driving force behind the ability of dietary protein to stimulate protein synthesis.

Leucine activates mTOR – to switch on muscle building

A series of cellular studies has now clearly shown that leucine directly activates a critical compound in muscle called the mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin). It turns out mTOR is like a molecular switch that turns on the machinery that manufactures muscle proteins and leucine is one of the major activators of mTOR. So leucine not only provides the building blocks for protein synthesis, it also plays a critical role in up-regulating the process. Even when an overabundance of amino acids are available to provide the building materials for new muscle, adding extra leucine augments protein synthesis rates further. The bottom line is that adding additional leucine to your diet is an effective strategy to maximize muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.

Leucine helps you lose weight and spare muscle when dieting

A large number of studies have shown that high protein diets help spare muscle loss during dieting and weight loss. Researchers at the University of Illinois conducted studies that examined weight loss diets containing 10 grams of leucine per day and 125 grams total of protein per day with a minimum of 2.5 grams of leucine at each meal. In two separate studies, the groups consuming high leucine diets had greater weight loss, greater fat loss and better preservation of lean body mass. In these studies, the high leucine diets also resulted in better glucose control.

In another study, scientists from Columbia University studied rats that were fed high-fat diets. When given leucine supplements, their fat weight decreased by 25%. The leucine also promoted better blood sugar control and reduced total and LDL “bad” cholesterol. Leucine increased their resting metabolism by boosting levels of UCP3 (uncoupling protein 3), which causes the body to lose energy as heat rather than storing it as body fat.

How much you need

The ideal amount of leucine to take is a matter of debate. When single doses have been studied, intake of as little as 2.5 grams of leucine stimulated protein synthesis. In long-term studies, leucine intakes equivalent to 8 or more grams per day are recommended in divided doses so that at least 2.5 grams of leucine are consumed at each meal.

The best food sources of leucine include any proteins from animals that naturally contain all the essential amino acids. The protein source with the highest leucine content is whey, which contains about 10% leucine or 10 grams per 100 grams of protein. If you drink a whey protein shake that has about 25 grams of protein, you would get about 2.5 grams of naturally occurring leucine. Other protein supplements like casein and soy contain less leucine, about 8%.

Leucine can also be taken as a single amino acid or as a BCAA combination formula. Since most BCAAs formulas contain about 40-50% leucine, a dose of 5-6 grams provides about 2.5 grams of leucine. A cautionary note—supplementing with just leucine alone will not result in optimal effects if the your diet is low in protein. This is because other BCAAs (isoleucine and valine) will be preferentially oxidized and lead to a BCAA imbalance that compromises anabolism. Therefore, if total protein intake is low, supplement with all three BCAAs.

A growing body of evidence indicates that increasing leucine intake can have multiple benefits. It provides an important building block for muscle protein, activates key events in the complex process of protein synthesis, augments weight loss, improves body composition, and corrects metabolic disturbances such as elevated glucose and cholesterol levels.

 

[heavyhitter]

Basically, most of the studies show that if you use supplemental leucine in a diet that is generally low in protein you will see not net benefit. But in a diet with sufficient protein, adding just additional leucine can trigger protein synthesis

 

[flexdurden]

Basically, most of the studies show that if you use supplemental leucine in a diet that is generally low in protein you will see not net benefit. But in a diet with sufficient protein, adding just additional leucine can trigger protein synthesis

Essentially leucine is the catalyst but without having the ammunition to fire (other EAAs) leucine will not be able to initiate the protein synthetic response one would desire. That's what I am making of it.

 

[heavyhitter]

Yes, but on a bodybuilding diet you will be taking in plenty of those other amino's throughout the day so leucine on it's own will still stimulate protein synthesis. And it's been shown to be benificial when adding extra leucine to a protein source(i.e. isolate,peptopro etc.) which is why so many of these bcaa formulations are going to like 8:1:1

 

[flexdurden]

Yes, but on a bodybuilding diet you will be taking in plenty of those other amino's throughout the day so leucine on it's own will still stimulate protein synthesis. And it's been shown to be benificial when adding extra leucine to a protein source(i.e. isolate,peptopro etc.) which is why so many of these bcaa formulations are going to like 8:1:1

Yes, and just for the sake of discussion, I guess it could also be questioned whether adding any additional leucine to a traditional bodybuilding diet would really increase protein synthesis. One is already going to be getting a lot of leucine from protein sources and if you already have all of the EAAs and sufficient leucine, adding more leucine may not be of benefit. I do recall that even in situations where adding additional leucine to a diet does not increase the protein synthetic response is does serve as a an anabolic signaler, so it may enhace the body's ability to use the amino acids present but not generate an increase in protein synthesis. IMO, that is how leucine is utilized when added to whole proteins...and has merit in that regard but not to increase the protein synthetic response. Just my little theory lol

 

[iintensity]

Just out of curiosity, why not add BCAA (all three) instead of just the leucine?

By supplementing with just leucine you deplete levels of the other two. It's better to take bcaa but it's not a huge deal.

 

[heavyhitter]

Yes, and just for the sake of discussion, I guess it could also be questioned whether adding any additional leucine to a traditional bodybuilding diet would really increase protein synthesis. One is already going to be getting a lot of leucine from protein sources and if you already have all of the EAAs and sufficient leucine, adding more leucine may not be of benefit. I do recall that even in situations where adding additional leucine to a diet does not increase the protein synthetic response is does serve as a an anabolic signaler, so it may enhace the body's ability to use the amino acids present but not generate an increase in protein synthesis. IMO, that is how leucine is utilized when added to whole proteins...and has merit in that regard but not to increase the protein synthetic response. Just my little theory lol

I don't think your too far off here. I do believe that if used at the right time additional leucine can be of benefit like say in a during workout shake. And if i'm enhancing the usage of amino's (i.e. turning it over at a faster rate) then is that not essentially the definition of protein synthesis?

 

[flexdurden]

I don't think your too far off here. I do believe that if used at the right time additional leucine can be of benefit like say in a during workout shake. And if i'm enhancing the usage of amino's (i.e. turning it over at a faster rate) then is that not essentially the definition of protein synthesis?

I think the idea i was getting at in what adding extra leucine will not is create a higher PEAK rate of protein synthesis. That is what was missing from my previous post. So while is may help continue the protein synethic response of a meal, it won't make it happen at a higher peak rate.

I think there may be some merit in using leucine at every meal to essentially turn every meal into a super meal...could be interesting to to it out.

 

[Knight9]

Yes, and just for the sake of discussion, I guess it could also be questioned whether adding any additional leucine to a traditional bodybuilding diet would really increase protein synthesis. One is already going to be getting a lot of leucine from protein sources and if you already have all of the EAAs and sufficient leucine, adding more leucine may not be of benefit. I do recall that even in situations where adding additional leucine to a diet does not increase the protein synthetic response is does serve as a an anabolic signaler, so it may enhace the body's ability to use the amino acids present but not generate an increase in protein synthesis. IMO, that is how leucine is utilized when added to whole proteins...and has merit in that regard but not to increase the protein synthetic response. Just my little theory lol

I think it's 4.5grams at a time that is shown to be very effective. This is why Mike Arnold's protocol initally called for 4.5g 2-3x (in each shake). Later he lowered it to around 3 due to figuring in the leucine content of the hydrolyzed protein I assume.

By supplementing with just leucine you deplete levels of the other two. It's better to take bcaa but it's not a huge deal.

Strongly disagree!

I don't think your too far off here. I do believe that if used at the right time additional leucine can be of benefit like say in a during workout shake. And if i'm enhancing the usage of amino's (i.e. turning it over at a faster rate) then is that not essentially the definition of protein synthesis?

GUYS. Leucine initiates protein synthesis and plays a huge role in mTOR signaling...then, all the EAA's build/repair muscle etc.

 

[Adonis89]

Essentially leucine is the catalyst but without having the ammunition to fire (other EAAs) leucine will not be able to initiate the protein synthetic response one would desire. That's what I am making of it.

I think it's 4.5grams at a time that is shown to be very effective. This is why Mike Arnold's protocol initally called for 4.5g 2-3x (in each shake). Later he lowered it to around 3 due to figuring in the leucine content of the hydrolyzed protein I assume.




Strongly disagree!



GUYS. Leucine initiates protein synthesis and plays a huge role in mTOR signaling...then, all the EAA's build/repair muscle etc.

The way I understood it was that as long as there is a sufficient amino acid pool in the blood, the leucine or bcaa would stimulate an anabolic response.

I don't think anyone is arguing that, but whether or not its just leucine, or all three BCAA that are optimal at stimulating the response. It's probably splitting hairs at this point, but there's plenty of research showing that leucine alone can do it if there's a sufficient amino acid pool. I looked into it a bit. I wonder where the BCAA hype came from then? To my knowledge, there's also research showing the benefit of taking all 3 BCAA vs just leucine. Yikes.

 

[flexdurden]

The way I understood it was that as long as there is a sufficient amino acid pool in the blood, the leucine or bcaa would stimulate an anabolic response.

I don't think anyone is arguing that, but whether or not its just leucine, or all three BCAA that are optimal at stimulating the response. It's probably splitting hairs at this point, but there's plenty of research showing that leucine alone can do it if there's a sufficient amino acid pool. I looked into it a bit. I wonder where the BCAA hype came from then? To my knowledge, there's also research showing the benefit of taking all 3 BCAA vs just leucine. Yikes.

Yeah.... Have you read Homonunculus's articles on amino acids on John Meadows' site? Defintiely great information but he points out that the research is really all over the place... Is there ever a clear cut answer to this kind of stuff? :banghead:

But I'm with you on the above. For most of us, we aren't living life in a fasted state and with the types of diets most of us have we should have sufficient amino acid pools, so leucine alone should be enough to trigger a protein synthetic response.

 

[Adonis89]

Yeah.... Have you read Homonunculus's articles on amino acids on John Meadows' site? Defintiely great information but he points out that the research is really all over the place... Is there ever a clear cut answer to this kind of stuff? :banghead:

But I'm with you on the above. For most of us, we aren't living life in a fasted state and with the types of diets most of us have we should have sufficient amino acid pools, so leucine alone should be enough to trigger a protein synthetic response.

I agree. I'll check the article - haven't read it yet.

I think that if we zoom out a bit and just use common sense, assuming adequate leucine intake and protein intake across a given day, taking in a highly hydrolyzed protein full of EAA and NEAA during training, is presumably superior for providing additional building blocks for full muscle growth, rather than just a few amino acids, regardless of their individual effects.

...but for those who want the piece of mind, adding BCAA or leucine to something like peptopro seemingly can't hurt.

 

[flexdurden]

I agree. I'll check the article - haven't read it yet.

I think that if we zoom out a bit and just use common sense, assuming adequate leucine intake and protein intake across a given day, taking in a highly hydrolyzed protein full of EAA and NEAA during training, is presumably superior for providing additional building blocks for full muscle growth, rather than just a few amino acids, regardless of their individual effects.

...but for those who want the piece of mind, adding BCAA or leucine to something like peptopro seemingly can't hurt.

From what I highlighted, Homon states that (with citation of course lol) that having both NEAAs and EAAs will sustain protein synthesis for a longer period of time after ingestion that having just EAAs... just something to add backing to your statement.

As far as adding in extra leucine or BCAAs, personally i would rather be SURE I had all of the building blocks there than be missing out. If they are not going to cause any detrimental health effects, so , asyou said, a little extra won't hurt.