TRENBOLONE and igf1 levels - Blood tests

[pickapeck]

Tren the magic poison... that's all I can say. Well I'll also say this. If I dial it in I have low side effects and it works like crazy. If I overdose (for me) I feel like shit and look like shit, full of inflammation, water retention. That's got tb be having some sort of toxic effect on multiple systems in the body. I'm not shocked that IGF-1 is awry. Those studies I think were in cows that showed a rise in IGF-1. It would be interesting to know what the number would be using a therapeutic and not toxic dose.

 

[DarrenG29]

Tren the magic poison... that's all I can say. Well I'll also say this. If I dial it in I have low side effects and it works like crazy. If I overdose (for me) I feel like shit and look like shit, full of inflammation, water retention. That's got tb be having some sort of toxic effect on multiple systems in the body. I'm not shocked that IGF-1 is awry. Those studies I think were in cows that showed a rise in IGF-1. It would be interesting to know what the number would be using a therapeutic and not toxic dose.

it’s made me feel quite crap knowing how low my igf1 number is and can only think that its been tren

it must be counterproductive having such low igf1 levels long term injury risks

 

[luki7788]

As a side note, I have read a lot, searched pubmed and other medical sites, and come up with a theory why trenbolone on blood tests lowers IGF:

what trenbolone mainly does in terms of igf is not so much increasing it as it increases the sensitivity of satellite cells in muscles to IGF, so the more muscles we have, the more satellite cells we have and the more IGF will be able to "stick" to them. So the blood levels of igf go down because all of that goes to the satellite cells in the muscles. So to get a real result of what your igf level is, you would have to do a muscle biopsy. Anyway, I have already heard the theory that a high level of igf in the blood is undesirable for bodybuilders because everything grows (this is where bubble gut comes from), we need high IGF but in skeletal muscles.

I wonder what the others think about it

 

[maldorf]

I wonder too if it might be a negative feedback loop. The cells are more sensitive to the IGF and it binds better, so the body decreases levels to try to maintain homeostasis. Just a guess I throw out.

 

[Bleed]

Since we are just bouncing ideas around and none of us are scientists, I can say this seems entirely possible. Those low igf might be a "good" thing. Interesting take luki.

As a side note, I have read a lot, searched pubmed and other medical sites, and come up with a theory why trenbolone on blood tests lowers IGF:

what trenbolone mainly does in terms of igf is not so much increasing it as it increases the sensitivity of satellite cells in muscles to IGF, so the more muscles we have, the more satellite cells we have and the more IGF will be able to "stick" to them. So the blood levels of igf go down because all of that goes to the satellite cells in the muscles. So to get a real result of what your igf level is, you would have to do a muscle biopsy. Anyway, I have already heard the theory that a high level of igf in the blood is undesirable for bodybuilders because everything grows (this is where bubble gut comes from), we need high IGF but in skeletal muscles.

I wonder what the others think about it

 

[luki7788]

I wonder too if it might be a negative feedback loop. The cells are more sensitive to the IGF and it binds better, so the body decreases levels to try to maintain homeostasis. Just a guess I throw out.

also very possible

I have generally talked to a lot of people who have been using gh for a long time and their igf levels have hardly changed throughout the year. The only time their igf goes up is when they take the gh off and after a while they put the synthetic gh up again

 

[specter]

As a side note, I have read a lot, searched pubmed and other medical sites, and come up with a theory why trenbolone on blood tests lowers IGF:

what trenbolone mainly does in terms of igf is not so much increasing it as it increases the sensitivity of satellite cells in muscles to IGF, so the more muscles we have, the more satellite cells we have and the more IGF will be able to "stick" to them. So the blood levels of igf go down because all of that goes to the satellite cells in the muscles. So to get a real result of what your igf level is, you would have to do a muscle biopsy. Anyway, I have already heard the theory that a high level of igf in the blood is undesirable for bodybuilders because everything grows (this is where bubble gut comes from), we need high IGF but in skeletal muscles.

I wonder what the others think about it

i remember reading years ago that Tren increases intramuscular IGF levels and not systemic like HGH, among other things thats was what made Tren a "special" roid vs other roids.

 

[Type-IIx]

Two major reasons:

1. Skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ that secretes myokines, including IGF-I and its various local muscle isoforms including mIGF-IEa, mIGF-IEb (mechano growth factor), et cetera, and communicates with the entire organism including the liver, exerting "a local influence for global effect." Trenbolone profoundly increases local muscle IGF-I expression (tren actually increases mechano growth factor expression in muscle MORE than IGF-I itself), thus likely signaling to the global system/the liver to reduce its cIGF-I production. This is adaptive in a sense, and likely a particular strength of tren. Local mIGF-I maintains function of the muscle even in the absence of cIGF-I altogether.

2. Tren does enhance glucose metabolism, Tren can be experienced as "chewing up carbs," and diminishes the substrates for liver-secreted (c)IGF-I.

 

[luki7788]

Two major reasons:

1. Skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ that secretes myokines, including IGF-I and its various local muscle isoforms including mIGF-IEa, mIGF-IEb (mechano growth factor), et cetera, and communicates with the entire organism including the liver, exerting "a local influence for global effect." Trenbolone profoundly increases local muscle IGF-I expression (tren actually increases mechano growth factor expression in muscle MORE than IGF-I itself), thus likely signaling to the global system/the liver to reduce its cIGF-I production. This is adaptive in a sense, and likely a particular strength of tren. Local mIGF-I maintains function of the muscle even in the absence of cIGF-I altogether.

2. Tren does enhance glucose metabolism, Tren can be experienced as "chewing up carbs," and diminishes the substrates for liver-secreted (c)IGF-I.

So it actually explains why many top bodybuilders use trenbolone in their growth phase and grow better on it than on any other drug

besides, I know a lot of leading amateurs or a few pro bodybuilders and none of them really works and does not care about the igf level

 

[Type-IIx]

So it actually explains why many top bodybuilders use trenbolone in their growth phase and grow better on it than on any other drug

besides, I know a lot of leading amateurs or a few pro bodybuilders and none of them really works and does not care about the igf level

Without making judgments about the best protocols/compounds, different guys will have different views, but tren is insane at slabbing on hypertrophied muscle. So it makes sense in a growth phase because of how damn well it does that alone. Tracking serum IGF-I for adult growth is more relevant for musculotendinous/ligamentous tissue, certain bones, etc. For healthy adults, outside of growth it has some other applications. Basically though, yeah, cIGF-I is not an end goal (I don't know why anyone chases any numbers on bloodwork aside from getting into range, and if natty, getting to high-normal free test) to try to increase for healthy adults. If you have truly low cIGF-I for your height/body surface area, age, et cetera you do face an increased cardiovascular and some metabolic risks.

 

[psychor]

Type-IIx, in your opinion what would be the ideal dosage for maximizing the hypertrophy producing effects of Tren Ace? I realize this may be totally individualized but do you have any suggestion based on your observations? Thanks Bro!

 

[luki7788]

Without making judgments about the best protocols/compounds, different guys will have different views, but tren is insane at slabbing on hypertrophied muscle. So it makes sense in a growth phase because of how damn well it does that alone. Tracking serum IGF-I for adult growth is more relevant for musculotendinous/ligamentous tissue, certain bones, etc. For healthy adults, outside of growth it has some other applications. Basically though, yeah, cIGF-I is not an end goal (I don't know why anyone chases any numbers on bloodwork aside from getting into range, and if natty, getting to high-normal free test) to try to increase for healthy adults. If you have truly low cIGF-I for your height/body surface area, age, et cetera you do face an increased cardiovascular and some metabolic risks.

Czli my theory has something to do with the truth - that there is nothing to worry about low IGF results in the blood serum on trenbolone because it in no way translates into the gains that we actually achieve and the actual IGF level in the muscle

 

[Type-IIx]

Type-IIx, in your opinion what would be the ideal dosage for maximizing the hypertrophy producing effects of Tren Ace? I realize this may be totally individualized but do you have any suggestion based on your observations? Thanks Bro!

Maximize or optimize? Dosage for maximizing hypertrophy generally follows the more is better principle and despite diminishing returns and increasingly unbearable sides, I am sure some top pros might run a gram+ of tren ace year round. I'm more interested in optimization personally, but if your goal is IFBB pro, the calculus is different.

 

[qbkilla]

Without making judgments about the best protocols/compounds, different guys will have different views, but tren is insane at slabbing on hypertrophied muscle. So it makes sense in a growth phase because of how damn well it does that alone. Tracking serum IGF-I for adult growth is more relevant for musculotendinous/ligamentous tissue, certain bones, etc. For healthy adults, outside of growth it has some other applications. Basically though, yeah, cIGF-I is not an end goal (I don't know why anyone chases any numbers on bloodwork aside from getting into range, and if natty, getting to high-normal free test) to try to increase for healthy adults. If you have truly low cIGF-I for your height/body surface area, age, et cetera you do face an increased cardiovascular and some metabolic risks.

What would you say at a scientific level makes tren such a popular choice for cutting or recomp compared to other aas?

It helps retain muscle better? It "chews up carbs" aka raises metabolism thus fat loss I assume? Or guys just prefer it because it dries us out and makes us appear leaner than say drol/npp? Or all of the above ?

 

[Type-IIx]

What would you say at a scientific level makes tren such a popular choice for cutting or recomp compared to other aas?

It helps retain muscle better? It "chews up carbs" aka raises metabolism thus fat loss I assume? Or guys just prefer it because it dries us out and makes us appear leaner than say drol/npp? Or all of the above ?

It's been speculated by very smart people (see Peter Bond's book) that tren acts at the minerlocorticoid receptor (MR) as an antagonist, thus reducing sodium retention in the renal tubuli, exerting a potent antidiuretic effect ("dry" compound). It fits like a knife into the AR and binds it with DHT-like affinity. It has antiglucocorticoid activity, i.e., it inhibits the action of cortisol and adrenaline/epinephrine, etc. It potently decreases proteolysis/protein breakdown so is great for retention of muscle, but it also does have direct and potent anabolic effects in muscle given the findings of its mIGF-I activity. All of this without 5α-reduction nor aromatase activity.

 

[FranJ]

I always had higher IGF levels when using high testosterone + tren, but after reading your comments it seems that tren does not increase IGF systemically, maybe it was testosterone doing this since I never get it elevated using HGH...

Anyone gets high E2 levels in blood test when using tren? why does this happen if it doesn't aromatize?

 

[luki7788]

I always had higher IGF levels when using high testosterone + tren, but after reading your comments it seems that tren does not increase IGF systemically, maybe it was testosterone doing this since I never get it elevated using HGH...

Anyone gets high E2 levels in blood test when using tren? why does this happen if it doesn't aromatize?

tren is recognized by the sensitive test as estrogen so the result is false. You would have to use the RIA method to show a realistic result and laboratories hardly use this method

 

[heavyhitter]

tren is recognized by the sensitive test as estrogen so the result is false. You would have to use the RIA method to show a realistic result and laboratories hardly use this method

This

 

[Type-IIx]

@luki7788 when you got this result were you on rhGH?

 

[Type-IIx]

I always thought tren RAISED igf 1?

If you were on it non-stop, even a little at a time, It's effects are gonna wear off, and for me, tren compromises the shit out of my liver. I accidentally shot an extra 300mg of tren e a week which was mislabeled as Masteron, and my piss turned orange and i was deathly lethargic with no appetite or energy to train for 2 weeks until it cleared my system.

I've had to learn the hard way, no matter how much or how long you stay on certain drugs, if your liver is fucked, shit doesn't work right... Including your liver converting igf1.

Tren likely also lowers IGF-I (sans rhGH, rhIGF-I, LR3-IGF-I, etc.) via reduced hepatic somatotroph quantity and GH pulse amplitude and duration. Aromatizing androgens like T, due to aromatization or their structure, may ameliorate this.

It would be ever more curious if luki was on rhGH here.