TRT gurus promoting High E2

[MethodAir]

???

Do I have to spell out the logic illustrated in the provided hypothetical? A 30% decrease on all levels (serum, tissue) is NOT 'almost unchanged'...

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Do I have to spell out the logic illustrated in the provided hypothetical? A 30% decrease on all levels (serum, tissue) is NOT 'almost unchanged'...

Did you just have a stroke? Clearly I was referring to the post of yours that came before mine ("while tissue levels may continue to soar") not the one after it (a 30% decrease in both serum and tissue e2 levels). You apparently don't even understand how time works. I'm not gonna engage any further with you, lest I lose more brain cells from trying to understand wtf you are talking about.

 

[MethodAir]

Did you just have a stroke? Clearly I was referring to the post of yours that came before mine ("while tissue levels may continue to soar") not the one after it (a 30% decrease in both serum and tissue e2 levels). You apparently don't even understand how time works. I'm not gonna engage any further with you, lest I lose more brain cells from trying to understand wtf you are talking about.

Let's move on...

 

[brutus69]

Did you just have a stroke? Clearly I was referring to the post of yours that came before mine ("while tissue levels may continue to soar") not the one after it (a 30% decrease in both serum and tissue e2 levels). You apparently don't even understand how time works. I'm not gonna engage any further with you, lest I lose more brain cells from trying to understand wtf you are talking about.

i was wondering where u were! your posts are so intelligent and rational. id love to know what u do for a career cuz u arent just some average dude.

 

[Crazy_jay]

I'm really tired of the high E crowd.

They are correct in stating that crashing estrogen is bad, and that AIs are easily overdosed, but they take things way too far in an attempt to reinvent the wheel and to make a name for themselves. Hell, they even go so far to suggest that gyno is not causes by excess Estrogens to defend their quackery

Let's stick to the case of TRT. The goal that everyone agrees on is to reach a testosterone level in the high-normal range, and to keep blood levels as stable as possible with frequent injections. But when it comes to Estrogen levels, the high E crowd suddenly abandons that idea and claims that 'the more Estrogen the better, Estrogen is amazing and has only positive effects' (I'm exaggerating only slightly). Yes, Estrogen does have an important role in males. That's why we should strive to keep it in the normal range. But high Estrogen also has side effects, among them gyno, female-type body fat deposits (mostly around limbs), subcutenous water retention, prostatic hypertrophy, and more. Some of these side effects are especially prevalent when Estrogen/Androgen ratio is high, but high E even in combination with high androgen levels can cause side effects.

Hence, with Testosterone in the normal range, we also want Estrogen in the normal range. But this is far from guaranteed. Yes, most men on TRT with dialed in T levels will also have normal E2 levels. But for some (with certain genetic factors and lifestyles) E2 will be out of range. In that case, you should use an AI, BUT AT A DOSE THAT WILL NOT LOWER E2 TOO MUCH. That is, at a very, very low dose. Given the cumulative effects of suicidal AIs, the dose should even be tapered down to an even lower maintenance level. That way, AIs can in fact be used to achieve stable E2 levels in the normal range. Arguably, SERM use is a more foolproof way of controlling Estrogen, but long-term use is not something I would recommend given that there is a better alternative. I'm not gonna get into the moronic argument made here earlier about the distinction of tissue and serum Estrogen level. Let me just point out that the decrease of Aromatase activity with AIs is proportional to the prior Aromatase concentration in tissues. In general, the distinction between serum and tissue E2 levels is much less important that was suggested above. Anyway.

So the upshot is this: On TRT, get frequent blood work. If E2 is above range, use AIs, at an appropriate dose. The target for E2 should be in the high-normal range. However, some people (e.g. those with preexisting gyno) may be symptomatic in that range. For those people, the target E2 levels should be lower, but never below the normal range. In the rare case that E2 side effects cannot be controlled without crashing E2, then a SERM is a better alternative.

Thank you for bringing some sense to this thread. I kind of felt like a dick telling this physician here that he's wrong but he's wrong. If people listen to his advice, they'll find themselves in trouble, at least the ones that do aromatize an unnatural amount like myself. Few years ago I became iron deficient from donating blood and became super lethargic. Before I knew that was why I had felt so off, I starting playing with my ai dose as most guys couldnt figure out way I took so much ai but e2 levels always looked good. I thought maybe that was why I felt off. After i got my iron sorted out, i didnt feel better and for periods of time, way worse. I ended up switching to a pharma ai and just couldnt find a my sweet spot, different ai doses, different test doses, nothing worked. I always wondered if maybe the pharma ai was accurately dosed and the other ai I used was junk. I never really kept up on bloodwork because I wanted some consistency first. Well, after chasing things for some time, and spending more time off an ai last year and never feeling better, finally dawned on me that the pharma ai is garbage and must he counterfeit. I have now switched to an ai I know is good and wow, finally, I'm starting to feel normal again. I had all the classic symptoms of high e. Having a highly underdosed or completely bunk ai destroyed my quality of life, even on only 150mg test and test levels at mid 700s. I couldnt imagine having a dr that refuses to prescribe an ai. It's one reason why I self diagnose at this point. When it comes to hormones, I dont have much faith in drs. Too many horror stories.

 

[fitzchivalry]

You can lead a horse to water.....

 

[nothuman]

I'm really tired of the high E crowd.

They are correct in stating that crashing estrogen is bad, and that AIs are easily overdosed, but they take things way too far in an attempt to reinvent the wheel and to make a name for themselves. Hell, they even go so far to suggest that gyno is not causes by excess Estrogens to defend their quackery

Let's stick to the case of TRT. The goal that everyone agrees on is to reach a testosterone level in the high-normal range, and to keep blood levels as stable as possible with frequent injections. But when it comes to Estrogen levels, the high E crowd suddenly abandons that idea and claims that 'the more Estrogen the better, Estrogen is amazing and has only positive effects' (I'm exaggerating only slightly). Yes, Estrogen does have an important role in males. That's why we should strive to keep it in the normal range. But high Estrogen also has side effects, among them gyno, female-type body fat deposits (mostly around limbs), subcutenous water retention, prostatic hypertrophy, and more. Some of these side effects are especially prevalent when Estrogen/Androgen ratio is high, but high E even in combination with high androgen levels can cause side effects.

Hence, with Testosterone in the normal range, we also want Estrogen in the normal range. But this is far from guaranteed. Yes, most men on TRT with dialed in T levels will also have normal E2 levels. But for some (with certain genetic factors and lifestyles) E2 will be out of range. In that case, you should use an AI, BUT AT A DOSE THAT WILL NOT LOWER E2 TOO MUCH. That is, at a very, very low dose. Given the cumulative effects of suicidal AIs, the dose should even be tapered down to an even lower maintenance level. That way, AIs can in fact be used to achieve stable E2 levels in the normal range. Arguably, SERM use is a more foolproof way of controlling Estrogen, but long-term use is not something I would recommend given that there is a better alternative. I'm not gonna get into the moronic argument made here earlier about the distinction of tissue and serum Estrogen level. Let me just point out that the decrease of Aromatase activity with AIs is proportional to the prior Aromatase concentration in tissues. In general, the distinction between serum and tissue E2 levels is much less important that was suggested above. Anyway.

So the upshot is this: On TRT, get frequent blood work. If E2 is above range, use AIs, at an appropriate dose. The target for E2 should be in the high-normal range. However, some people (e.g. those with preexisting gyno) may be symptomatic in that range. For those people, the target E2 levels should be lower, but never below the normal range. In the rare case that E2 side effects cannot be controlled without crashing E2, then a SERM is a better alternative.

My E2 is optimal on TRT but goes up to 50 when I take DHEA and Pregnenolone in order to optimize those levels. I am not sure whether to a) optimize my estrogen by dropping both hormones (leaving me pregnenolone deficient w/ low-normal DHEA), b) allow the estrogen to be a bit high, or c) use a low dose AI to optimize everything.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Why are you taking both pregnenolone and DHEA? Shouldn't pregnenolone be sufficient, considering it is converted to DHEA quite a bit? I'm not up to speed on this topic. Dropping the DHEA might suffice in getting E2 down into the normal range. Otherwise, option b) is probably best, considering that E2 is only slightly out of range. Or you could try something like 0.25mg (i.e. a 10th of a tab) Letrozole e3d.

 

[BoredStiff]

I think like anything else it's really dependent on the individual. Just as an anecdote, last year (i think, or the year before) when I toyed with gear a bit again after like ten years of nothing/TRT, I kind of eye-balled things and when I got bloodwork my e2 was at 4pg/dl and it had been that way for about three months. Now, most people would say that I should feel miserable but I felt amazing, sex drive was great, no joint issues, I was actually pretty shocked to see it was tanked because of the horror stories people speak of when their e2 gets too low. Not saying it's healthy, just that I wouldn't have even known, I felt great. Conversely, if my e2 even gets past 30, my tool might as well be a lifeless piece of rubber. So for me, it seems I'm better off keeping it on the lower side (maybe around 15).

On a somewhat related note, I think some people go way overboard on TRT. Even 100mg might be too much for some people, If you're accurately replacing what your healthy body would make, you would not have a need for an AI. In fact I think that's one of the best ways of seeing how much is too much: A. RBC/Hematocrit and B. E2. When you're at a point where those two are naturally at a healthy set-point, that's your dose for optimum health. This obviously sucks for guys like me that are pretty E2 sensitive, but I think for us it makes far more sense to just get enough testosterone in to produce a healthy amount of estrogen, don't freak out if it's only like 50mg per week, and then replace the rest with Masteron or Primo (100-200mg of either, maybe 300mg tops).

Also as someone else mentioned, if estrogen is just mildly out of range, it seems far healthier to drive it down a bit with Proviron/Masteron, and perhaps DIM, as opposed to an AI.

I'm really not an expert, these are just my opinions, but I'm seeing that 300mg of test seems to be the new normal TRT dose by a LOT of clinics and a lot of these guys are on 3mg of anastrozole per week just to normalize E2 otherwise their skin takes a massive toll, libido tanks etc. I do know some guys that cruise on 250-300 with no AI and have zero issues, I have no issue with that, it's the guys (like me) that aromatize at a high rate or are just overly sensitive to e2 that I worry about.

 

[nothuman]

Why are you taking both pregnenolone and DHEA? Shouldn't pregnenolone be sufficient, considering it is converted to DHEA quite a bit? I'm not up to speed on this topic. Dropping the DHEA might suffice in getting E2 down into the normal range. Otherwise, option b) is probably best, considering that E2 is only slightly out of range. Or you could try something like 0.25mg (i.e. a 10th of a tab) Letrozole e3d.

I actually haven't added DHEA yet on top of the pregnenolone. Decided against it after making that post and before you responded for the exact reason you suggested.

On 70mg pregnenolone only, my pregnenolone level was 80, Estradiol was 45, and DHEA-S was 245. Instead of adding DHEA, I am thinking I double the pregnenolone dose. Only issue is that will have my estradiol and progesterone high (it was .51 on 70mg preg)

 

[Mike Arnold]

I don`t listen to "Guru`s". They are most often either self-proclaimed, or an IG whore, neither means a thing. I prefer medical professionals with real knowledge, RCT studies, you know, SCIENCE.

If the idea of TRT is to get a man back to normal healthy levels, why would that not be the same idea for estrogen?

Because it's more about the ratio of androgens to estrogen(to a point), not some arbitrary number. An estrogen level of 35 may be fine for a "normal" man with a T level of 600, but guys running large doses of androgens can--and should--have a higher estrogen level, not only to help offset the negative effects of androgens on cardiovascular health, but to promote muscle growth.

From what I've seen, bloodwork is now showing IMPROVED cardiovascular health markers (outside of blood pressure, potentially) as a result of elevated estrogen levels, especially when it comes to lipids. There are now numerous bodybuilders who are showing improved lipid profiles with a 300+ estrogen level compared to bodybuilders in the so-called "normal" range. Now, I am not necessarily saying you should have an estrogen level of 300+, but I have absolutely zero issues--and actually prefer---bodybuilders keep their estrogen level in the 100-150 range (sometims even higher) during the off-season when heavy androgen use is in play. When using this approach, all I have noticed are IMPROVEMENTS in both cardiovascular health (relative to those who stay in the 25-35 range) and muscle growth. Of course, when trying to maximize fat loss, things change, but when it's offseason growth time, do NOT tank your estrogen.

If someone begins experiencing outwardly noticeable estrogenic side effects (ex. gyno), my recommendation is to use a SERM (I prefer ralox) as your primary means of mitigating the problem, while AIs should only be added--as necessary--in order to manage overall estrogen levels. By doing this I believe you not only reduce potential cardiovascular harm, but it promotes a more anabolic environment.

Obviously, each person's situation needs to be evaluated individually, as some indoviduals are more susceptible to certain estrogen induced side effects (such as increased blood pressure). Clearly, having elevated BP is cardiovascularly harmful, so we need to take all factors into consideration when designing individual programs by finding the best balance for the individual. This makes it impossible to give a one size fits all dosing recommendation, but the point remains that I am no longer of the belief that "normal" estrogen levels are ideal for any androgen using bodybuilder attempting to grow while maintaining cardiovascular health.

 

[nihilixm]

i'm going to say this now - there is a huge nocebo effect here. Guys have convinced themselves they know what "high e2 symptoms are", then they see their e2 number, or they have a certain side effect from their AAS, and they go "yep, it must be my e2".

It isn't.

Just like the poster above - those aren't symptoms of high e2.

I hear this stuff all the time.

people seem to give androgens a pass, but when things get too far above or below what the body LIKES, things get weird. The body maintains its estradiol perfectly.

And like i said, the higher the T goes, the less the e2 goes up (it levels off).

I'm not saying one wouldn't have issues if they took too much estrogen, etc, because that would be a receptor overload. but with e2 from aromatization, the body handles things just fine.

Again, I have no patients with "high e2" symptoms. I don't use AI'.s

And I'm no "guru". i used to use an AI, because i thought i "was supposed to". I finally figured it out, then started digging deeper into these mechanisms. It's been mind blowing.

Why do you think people develop gyno if not high e2? Curious

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Because it's more about the ratio of androgens to estrogen(to a point), not some arbitrary number. An estrogen level of 35 may be fine for a "normal" man with a T level of 600, but guys running large doses of androgens can--and should--have a higher estrogen level, not only to help offset the negative effects of androgens on cardiovascular health, but to promote muscle growth.

From what I've seen, bloodwork is now showing IMPROVED cardiovascular health markers (outside of blood pressure, potentially) as a result of elevated estrogen levels, especially when it comes to lipids. There are now numerous bodybuilders who are showing improved lipid profiles with a 300+ estrogen level compared to bodybuilders in the so-called "normal" range. Now, I am not necessarily saying you should have an estrogen level of 300+, but I have absolutely zero issues--and actually prefer---bodybuilders keep their estrogen level in the 100-150 range (sometims even higher) during the off-season when heavy androgen use is in play. When using this approach, all I have noticed are IMPROVEMENTS in both cardiovascular health (relative to those who stay in the 25-35 range) and muscle growth. Of course, when trying to maximize fat loss, things change, but when it's offseason growth time, do NOT tank your estrogen.

If someone begins experiencing outwardly noticeable estrogenic side effects (ex. gyno), my recommendation is to use a SERM (I prefer ralox) as your primary means of mitigating the problem, while AIs should only be added--as necessary--in order to manage overall estrogen levels. By doing this I believe you not only reduce potential cardiovascular harm, but it promotes a more anabolic environment.

Obviously, each person's situation needs to be evaluated individually, as some individuals are more susceptible to certain estrogen induced side effects (such as increased blood pressure). Clearly, having elevated BP is cardiovascularly harmful, so we need to take all factors into consideration when designing individual programs by finding the best balance for the individual. This makes it impossible to give a one size fits all dosing recommendation, but the point remains that I am no longer of the belief that "normal" estrogen levels are ideal for any androgen using bodybuilder attempting to grow while maintaining cardiovascular health.

I agree that the A/E ratio is important. When Androgen levels are a multiple of normal (i.e. during a full-blown steroid cycle), then Estrogen levels can, and probably should, also be above the normal range. I would also agree that if someone is very sensitive to E2 sides (for example due to pre-existing gyno), then SERM use for the duration of a cycle would make more sense than having to deal with an out of whack A/E ratio and its negative effects on lipids and performance. However, if, for example, someone with an E2 level of 300 during a blast suffers from high E2 sides, then AI use that lowers it up to, say, 120, would be my first choice. If you'd have to lower E2 levels even further than that to get rid of the sides, then a SERM could make sense.

But for the case of true TRT, I still think that anything outside the normal range for E2 is very hard to justify from a health perspective.

 

[Crazy_jay]

As another member posted, dr. Rand recommends trt patients keep estradiol between 15-20. That's definitely where I feel better.

This 300+, even 100+ crap, sounds absolutely ridiculous. It's because of statements like that and the parroting of it that I've had a hell of a time feeling good on test at any dose. 500mg test/week, no ai for 5 weeks, e2 97, high blood pressure, fat gain, water retention, trouble breathing, no motivation, tired all the time, no night wood, little sex drive. 500mg test/week with 25mg aromasin, extreme sex drive, can actually breathe, weight starts falling off, still get stronger, more energy, increased aggression. I've tried coming of trt twice and restarting my hpta because I couldnt get dialed in. The problem, i kept trying to take less ai as that's the general consensus but what did i really need, more ai even though my e2 kept coming in around 22-25.

Each to there own, apparently it works for some, the point I'm trying to get across, is it doesnt work for everyone and these blanket statements are going to have people feeling like shit and regressing not progressing. If you don't feel good, you dont preform, you dont excel.

 

[j2048b]

i feel best when test is high (trt levels of between 750-1000) and e2 is sitting between 20-30...only way for me to accomplish this is .5 anastrozole per week or 12.5 mlg aromasin per week...plus putting hcg ontop of the test makes my mood 100% amazing and if not for the ai, my estro would rise and id become a crying little girl...true story... ask the wife...whats wrong is ur estrogen too high....again?

 

[Mike Arnold]

As another member posted, dr. Rand recommends trt patients keep estradiol between 15-20. That's definitely where I feel better.

This 300+, even 100+ crap, sounds absolutely ridiculous.
It only sounds that way when someone isn't educated regarding the topic.

It's because of statements like that and the parroting of it that I've had a hell of a time feeling good on test at any dose. 500mg test/week, no ai for 5 weeks, e2 97, high blood pressure, fat gain, water retention, trouble breathing, no motivation, tired all the time, no night wood, little sex drive. 500mg test/week with 25mg aromasin, extreme sex drive, can actually breathe, weight starts falling off, still get stronger, more energy, increased aggression. I've tried coming of trt twice and restarting my hpta because I couldnt get dialed in. The problem, i kept trying to take less ai as that's the general consensus but what did i really need, more ai even though my e2 kept coming in around 22-25.

Each to there own, apparently it works for some, the point I'm trying to get across, is it doesnt work for everyone and these blanket statements are going to have people feeling like shit and regressing not progressing. If you don't feel good, you dont preform, you dont excel.

Actually, what I said is that when one is using large doses of androgens, "normal" estrogen levels are not ideal from a gains or cardiovascular health standpoint. This stands for everyone. The only exception would be if BP becomes an issue, but that can usually be dealt with through other, safer means, rather than overdoing the AIs.

AIs have a plethora of negative side effects--both seen and unseen. Truth be told, MOST people actual feel like shit when their estrogen level is too low. It is a big problem among today's bodybuilders, especially the ones who want to stay as hard & dry as possible all year round. Now, obviously, if someone is very sensitive to E2, then a reading of 100-150 may be too much, but for most people they will feel and function great at that level (as long as a SERM is employed). Unlike you, most people that use 25 mg exemestane per day while running 500 mg of test/week feel like shit and crush their estrogen levels. Their sex drive goes to hell, their gains suffer, their joints begin to hurt, their lipid profile takes a dump and many of them end up experiencing varying degrees of depression. So, your experience certainly is NOT common, but the point remains that regardless of how one "feels", having a low estrogen level while running high androgens is NOT ideal for making gains or for ptimizing cardiovascular health.

Therefore, these supposed "blanket" statements (which were not blanket statements at all because I specifically said that each person's program should be evaluated and designed on an individual basis) will do FAR MORE good than harm. Nothing you mentioned had anything to do with what I said, as I was talking primarily about the effects of estrogen on cardiovascular health and the promotion of an anabolic environment. If people followed your program, most would feel like shit, perform lik shit, and damage their health. Good luck.

Lastly, I am confused as to why you said "it's because of statements like that and the parroting of it that I've had a hell of a time feeling good on test at any dose", when much of this information has just recently come to light. For years (back in th 80's and 90's) we were told that having high estrogen levels was ideal for growth, but after the millennium things began to change. Eventually, the pendulum swung over to the other side of the spectrum...and we were told that having elevated estrogen not only wasn't necessary for maximizing muscle growth, but that it would harm your cardiovascular health. While the latter may be true in non-AAS using individuals, it does not apply to those using exogenous androgens at appreciable doses. We now we know that the A:E ratio is a more important determinant of cardiovascular health than an arbitrary number. While we knew in the past that estrogen played a role in muscle growth, its importance is becoming clearer than ever. From the evidence I've seen, it appears that estrogen continues to promote greater anabolic benefits up to the 400 range...and perhaps beyond. This has already been confirmedmonstrated in numerous individuals by those on the front lines.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I agree that the A/E ratio is important. When Androgen levels are a multiple of normal (i.e. during a full-blown steroid cycle), then Estrogen levels can, and probably should, also be above the normal range. I would also agree that if someone is very sensitive to E2 sides (for example due to pre-existing gyno), then SERM use for the duration of a cycle would make more sense than having to deal with an out of whack A/E ratio and its negative effects on lipids and performance. However, if, for example, someone with an E2 level of 300 during a blast suffers from high E2 sides, then AI use that lowers it up to, say, 120, would be my first choice. If you'd have to lower E2 levels even further than that to get rid of the sides, then a SERM could make sense.

But for the case of true TRT, I still think that anything outside the normal range for E2 is very hard to justify from a health perspective.

Agreed.

The only thing we seem to disagree on is what the first course of action should be when addressing estrogen induced side effects. It appears you recommend first using an AI, followd by a SERM if necessary, whereas I tend to recommend a SERM first (preferably ralox), followed by an AI if needed. The reason I lean in this direction is 2-fold. One, AIs are generally less friendly to one's health (in many areas). This is particularly true for cardiovascular health. Two, AIs stiffle gains to a greater degree than do SERMs. So, if someone is attempting to mitigate a cosmetic side effect such as gyno, a SERM will achieve that objective perfectly, while doing less cardiovascular harm and keeping the individual in a more anabolic environment (it also provides many other health benefits).

In other words, use a serm (ralox) to help deal with estrogen issues...and if ralox isn't getting the job done, add in only as much AI as needed. The good news is that ralox will pretty much always be sufficient for preventing gyno, but if someone is sensitive to E2...or a LOT of armaitization is going on, an AI may be necessary.

I also agree that having elevated estrogen levels when running true TRT doses isn't helpful (and likely harmful) for cardiovascular health. It will still promote greater gains, but its effects on the cardiovascular system will begin to take on a more negative role. Again, it's all about balance.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Agreed.

The only thing we seem to disagree on is what the first course of action should be when addressing estrogen induced side effects. It appears you recommend first using an AI, followd by a SERM if necessary, whereas I tend to recommend a SERM first (preferably ralox), followed by an AI if needed. The reason I lean in this direction is 2-fold. One, AIs are generally less friendly to one's health (in many areas). This is particularly true for cardiovascular health. Two, AIs stiffle gains to a greater degree than do SERMs. So, if someone is attempting to mitigate a cosmetic side effect such as gyno, a SERM will achieve that objective perfectly, while doing less cardiovascular harm and keeping the individual in a more anabolic environment (it also provides many other health benefits).

In other words, use a serm (ralox) to help deal with estrogen issues...and if ralox isn't getting the job done, add in only as much AI as needed. The good news is that ralox will pretty much always be sufficient for preventing gyno, but if someone is sensitive to E2...or a LOT of armaitization is going on, an AI may be necessary.

I also agree that having elevated estrogen levels when running true TRT doses isn't helpful (and likely harmful) for cardiovascular health. It will still promote greater gains, but its effects on the cardiovascular system will begin to take on a more negative role. Again, it's all about balance.

My current thinking is that AIs (properly dosed, so that you don't lower E2 beyond your target) have essentially 0 negative effects, whereas SERMs do have some drawbacks. SERMs do have the big advantage that you can't really overdose them like you can with AIs. So if there's a gyno flare up, short-term SERMs use is definitely a good idea, definitely agree with that. AI use is tricky and needs to be dialed in with frequent blood work. But most gym bros don't get blood work mid cycle, so that if they do use an AI, they will likely miss the mark. Either they will be too conservative and it takes too long for E2 to reach target levels, or more likely, they take too high of a dose and end up with suboptimally low E2. I still think that AIs are theoretically superior, especially if you have time to dial the numbers in, like during TRT. But I have to admit that practically, SERMs are the better choice during steroid cycles for most bodybuilders.

 

[warlock]

Agreed.

The only thing we seem to disagree on is what the first course of action should be when addressing estrogen induced side effects. It appears you recommend first using an AI, followd by a SERM if necessary, whereas I tend to recommend a SERM first (preferably ralox), followed by an AI if needed. The reason I lean in this direction is 2-fold. One, AIs are generally less friendly to one's health (in many areas). This is particularly true for cardiovascular health. Two, AIs stiffle gains to a greater degree than do SERMs. So, if someone is attempting to mitigate a cosmetic side effect such as gyno, a SERM will achieve that objective perfectly, while doing less cardiovascular harm and keeping the individual in a more anabolic environment (it also provides many other health benefits).

In other words, use a serm (ralox) to help deal with estrogen issues...and if ralox isn't getting the job done, add in only as much AI as needed. The good news is that ralox will pretty much always be sufficient for preventing gyno, but if someone is sensitive to E2...or a LOT of armaitization is going on, an AI may be necessary.

I also agree that having elevated estrogen levels when running true TRT doses isn't helpful (and likely harmful) for cardiovascular health. It will still promote greater gains, but its effects on the cardiovascular system will begin to take on a more negative role. Again, it's all about balance.

So, in your opinion, what would be the best estrogen level to aim for when running true TRT doses for both cardiovascular health and muscle gains?

 

[Ranchhand]

Wow, this thread is excellent right now, so much needed current understanding on E levels and it's relation to A/E ratios!! Thanks Mike Arnold and MyNameIsJeff, thank you both equally for contributing to the thread