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TRT "stopped working", can't get it back to normal

AVelasques911

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Long story-short, mid-30's started TRT about three years ago due to constant ED issues, turns out my test was around 270. It was always very hit or miss, there was improvement but it was ok at best.

About summer of last year I feel I finally hit a really good point. 200mg of test split into two doses weekly, 500iu HCG split into two doses, 5mg cialis daily AND against common thinking I upped my AI (exmestane) to 12.5mg daily, which seems fairly high, but I was actually doing quite well. Sex drive was finally very reliable, good energy etc. I had some mild gyno on one nipple that was starting to flair a bit but otherwise felt damn good.

Important point, this was research chem exemestane from a reliable source on here.

Around this time is when the RC's got banned so I ordered some actual exemestane. Meanwhile I decided to treat the gyno with a real mild 4 week Letro "blast", i did 1/4 daily the first week and then 1/4 twice a week for three weeks. Killed the gyno.

Second Important point, that first week on daily letro I felt the most amazing I ever have. I was up at 4 A.M. full of energy and just needed sex 24/7.

By that time my brand name exemestane arrived. I gave it a few weeks to let my estrogen rebound back a bit and then went back to my usual protocol. It didn't work anymore. No erections, no libido, tired, feel like crap. I've been like this for about four months, tried sleeping with a few women, took a 20mg cialis earlier on and even with that I couldn't get hard enough to do anything, super embarrassing.

I went off all AI's for a month, just Test and HCG, so get a fresh blood test. At my trough (injected Monday, tested Thursday morning before injection) my total test was 950 and my estradiol was at 30.


I'm really at a loss.
This has been extremely frustrating as I was perfectly fine and dialed in for most of last year and now nothing seems to work. I can induce a temporary libido boost if I pop an entire Letro pill, not that I'm doing that regularly, but I'm just experimenting as an E2 level of 30 on no AI really doesn't seem like I convert to estrogen very much, yet I seem to do better when my estrogen gets somewhat tanked. The weirdest part is that I've gone back to my exact doses I was using last year and they do nothing now, I can't imagine the RC Aromasine being better quality than the real deal.

Any input is appreciated.
 

AVelasques911

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So I've come to three conclusions.

1. I don't convert to estrogen very much at all
2. The two times I've felt my best, I was going pretty overboard with an AI (12.5mg Aromasin daily for months, and that first week of daily letro)
3. Since my e2 with no AI is already at a pretty normal level, and I've felt best on heavy AI use, I'm assuming I'm one of the outliers that does better with estrogen a bit on the tanked side.

That still doesn't explain why the same dose of aromasin I was using last year no longer does anything though.
 

shelflife

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switch to trest and thank me in the morning..
better yet, you're wife will be thanking you in the morning..

:)
 

brutus69

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so. no actual bloodwork?
if not then u have no idea what you're doing, or what you're doing to yourself.
 

southoftheborder

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Long story-short, mid-30's started TRT about three years ago due to constant ED issues, turns out my test was around 270. It was always very hit or miss, there was improvement but it was ok at best.

About summer of last year I feel I finally hit a really good point. 200mg of test split into two doses weekly, 500iu HCG split into two doses, 5mg cialis daily AND against common thinking I upped my AI (exmestane) to 12.5mg daily, which seems fairly high, but I was actually doing quite well. Sex drive was finally very reliable, good energy etc. I had some mild gyno on one nipple that was starting to flair a bit but otherwise felt damn good.

Important point, this was research chem exemestane from a reliable source on here.

Around this time is when the RC's got banned so I ordered some actual exemestane. Meanwhile I decided to treat the gyno with a real mild 4 week Letro "blast", i did 1/4 daily the first week and then 1/4 twice a week for three weeks. Killed the gyno.

Second Important point, that first week on daily letro I felt the most amazing I ever have. I was up at 4 A.M. full of energy and just needed sex 24/7.

By that time my brand name exemestane arrived. I gave it a few weeks to let my estrogen rebound back a bit and then went back to my usual protocol. It didn't work anymore. No erections, no libido, tired, feel like crap. I've been like this for about four months, tried sleeping with a few women, took a 20mg cialis earlier on and even with that I couldn't get hard enough to do anything, super embarrassing.

I went off all AI's for a month, just Test and HCG, so get a fresh blood test. At my trough (injected Monday, tested Thursday morning before injection) my total test was 950 and my estradiol was at 30.


I'm really at a loss.
This has been extremely frustrating as I was perfectly fine and dialed in for most of last year and now nothing seems to work. I can induce a temporary libido boost if I pop an entire Letro pill, not that I'm doing that regularly, but I'm just experimenting as an E2 level of 30 on no AI really doesn't seem like I convert to estrogen very much, yet I seem to do better when my estrogen gets somewhat tanked. The weirdest part is that I've gone back to my exact doses I was using last year and they do nothing now, I can't imagine the RC Aromasine being better quality than the real deal.

Any input is appreciated.

Since you are "only" looking for a normal-high test levels and a healthy sex drive/feeling of well being, I would suggest going to a specialist (doctor) and not to try to "figure it out" by yourself....

This is your health after all....dont mess with it...
 

dale338

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Since you are "only" looking for a normal-high test levels and a healthy sex drive/feeling of well being, I would suggest going to a specialist (doctor) and not to try to "figure it out" by yourself....

This is your health after all....dont mess with it...

There are some competent, good male hormone doctors out there, but they are far and few between. There's more members on here that get male hormones better than most all doctors out there. I know this first hand and the reason I gave up on them. They messed me up worse and didn't give a shit. I spent three years doing my own research and still do and manage myself five hundred times better than any damn doctor ever did. But I am dedicated, run labs and am not afraid to make adjustments when needed. It will never be an exact science, but it's much better than any doctors did for me.

If you are one to take matters into your own hands, read and study a lot, run labs very frequently and be prepared for some trial and error. If you're not willing to do this, then yeah, your best off trying to find a rare competent doctor in this field.
 

AVelasques911

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To be honest, I'm not in the best financial situation and the doctors my insurance covers are what you expect..... one injection per month, won't test E2 etc. I've been screwed over by doctors so many times and nearly had a family member killed by a doctor dosing something wrong..... I'm just more of a do it myself guy at this point.

I do have bloodwork, I just stated the test and e2 (950, 30 at trough), I didn't list anything else because everything was on point except for RBC/Hematocrit being a tad bit high (still under 53 though).

That was kind of what threw me off is that my bloodwork was surprisingly good, I figured my e2 would be through the roof on no AI, given my symptoms. Which leads me to believe than when I was taking aromasin daily and feeling really good, it must have been at least mildly tanked.

And YES at that point I should've gotten bloodwork since I felt amazing but it had been so many months and financially I wasn't doing great that I just said I feel great, let it be. Lesson learned there for sure.
 

Userat204

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I'm in a situation where I've been on gear heavily for a good 15year and trt myself for 3 years. I was doing great. I've never used an AI. I was so sensitive to them that .2ml of arimidex gave me ED the only time I did use some was aromisin 12.5mg twice a day and was fine. I was using a gram of test and 800mg deca with orals and masteron all kinds of shit so I took it to keep my E2 down so prolactin didn't become a problem.

Jump ahead 2 years into trt I broke my dick and didn't take it to serious I saw a Dr got some cream to use twice a day it had to be compounded the place I found who would make it I couldn't stand the cream smelled I could literally smell it on me so I quit using it. It seemed I was getting better but then I started getting ED again so I went back got a new pharmacy to get the cream I can see my dick getting back to normal it will shrink both in length and girth because calcium or plaque builds up and blood can't get to your dick. So this cream started working great I would wake up hard or just get hard thruough the day. Then all the sudden I'm still on 125 my of test, but I have been running a good cycle the last 4 to 5 months or so. And I'm still having a little trouble getting hard. I don't use an AI so I'm trying it. I get labs from my Dr and my estro sits around 37. He wanted me taking 1mg arimidex a day I told him it will just mess me up.

So does anyone think it's possible or has anyone got of test completely after a minimum of 15 years of non stop heavy use at 40 now I was thinking about running a12 week pct with a small dose of ostarine, a good blast of of hcg and hmg, an AI and some fh. I think at my age I'm stuck with trt since I'm at the age your body really starts to stop producing test. My goal was to just use MA'S ostarine his new one and some nettle root extract. But I'm not sure and my Dr doesn't know about hcg or hmg so I think maybe I should just stay on trt but I need to figure out I'd I need. 150 or 200 mg a week or should I do it twice a month. It's hard to figure out even getting bloods. I get erections no problem but my drive really isn't like it was when I was on heavy. Then I couldn't get enough so it's odd that my drive was great when I first started trt I know breaking my dick caused ED and I've got past that but my drive is gone and I use nettle root extract with my TRT and my free test is high so I'm trying rlto figure out what I'm doing wrong. So your not alone. I'm.getting hard but I'm still off I take some 5-HTP 100mg at night to build seretonin. But I forgot to mention that I was in a bad car accident that took me out of the gym for a year. Muscle memory is amazing and that's why I cycled but it doesn't take long 10 to 12 months and you can get back to normal but I can't deadlift or squat or bench so I've spent so much time with physical therapist and was honest with them and they showed me ways to train the same muscle using a healthier technique. But good luck to you.

And if anyone think it's possible to come of test with my history at 40 or has please share. I'm thinking no especially I was on pain meds at certain times for months and months and I switched to Subutex which is safer for chronic pain but it still effects test levels as well so maybe I need to work with my Dr more and force him to learn about hcg hmg etc. I hope you get your issue worked out.
 

Zarati

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I crashed my estrogen with aromasin and my dick was never the same afterwards. For a good year. Maybe it's all in my head
 

danieltx

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And if anyone think it's possible to come of test with my history at 40 or has please share. I'm thinking no especially I was on pain meds at certain times for months and months and I switched to Subutex which is safer for chronic pain but it still effects test levels as well so maybe I need to work with my Dr more and force him to learn about hcg hmg etc. I hope you get your issue worked out.

It is definitely possible. Dave Palumbo used steroids for 12 years, then hormone replacement for 10 more years, then came off in mid to late 40s, used clomid / HCG / whatever else and recovered his natural production and got his wife pregnant twice. I recall him saying his testosterone level is in the 500s now.

No way to know if you'll get the same results until you try. But it is possible.
 

AVelasques911

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I crashed my estrogen with aromasin and my dick was never the same afterwards. For a good year. Maybe it's all in my head


Only time I've really felt good was most of last year when I was on 12.5mg aromasin daily, which most would say is too much for TRT, but my sex drive and everything was on point. Oddly I had that gyno that was starting to get pretty painful on that heavy aromasin dose.

None of it makes sense. If my e2 with no AI is just at 30, it must have been pretty tanked on daily exemestane.

I'll tell you this though, all I have to do to induce a good 12-24 hours of insane libido is pop one letrozole pill. Not that I do this regularly but it's just something I've noticed, something about tanking my e2 a bit makes me feel really, really good. It's easy to go past that sweet spot though.
 

dale338

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Only time I've really felt good was most of last year when I was on 12.5mg aromasin daily, which most would say is too much for TRT, but my sex drive and everything was on point. Oddly I had that gyno that was starting to get pretty painful on that heavy aromasin dose.

None of it makes sense. If my e2 with no AI is just at 30, it must have been pretty tanked on daily exemestane.

I'll tell you this though, all I have to do to induce a good 12-24 hours of insane libido is pop one letrozole pill. Not that I do this regularly but it's just something I've noticed, something about tanking my e2 a bit makes me feel really, really good. It's easy to go past that sweet spot though.

You're likely doing what I did and probably still do from time to time. You're floating through your sweet spot on the way down and then back up. My issue is I periodically take masteron and also HCG and both of these affect your E2. It's hard to gauge where it's at. When I just run T, I can control it perfectly. I've had my E from 5-50 over the past few years and for sure had much higher libido at 5, then anything above 30. 15-20, seems to be my sweet spot.
 

TungstenMan

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What's your SHBG at?

I've had a similar experience and my SHBG sits around 7 to 10 nmol/L depending on the the test when TRT "stops working". Testosterone at 990 ng/dL, free testosterone at 459 pg/mL. Estradiol at 40 pg/mL and free estradiol 1.79 pg/mL. Reference range for free testsoterone and free estradiol are 46-224 pg/mL and less than 0.45 pg/mL respectively.

I've always felt the best on TRT doses with no AI however sometimes it's just not great.

My theory is low SHBG results in high sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors due to a fast estadiol clearance time. This combined with a very high free estradiol level results in large swings from high to low in free estradiol and an inability to find the "sweet spot" so to speak.

Anyways I'm getting some more tests done to test some other ideas I have. Certainly a large part of it is in my head but it's definitely not 100%.

If anyone else has any ideas I'm interested in hearing them.
 

Zarati

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What's your SHBG at?

I've had a similar experience and my SHBG sits around 7 to 10 nmol/L depending on the the test when TRT "stops working". Testosterone at 990 ng/dL, free testosterone at 459 pg/mL. Estradiol at 40 pg/mL and free estradiol 1.79 pg/mL. Reference range for free testsoterone and free estradiol are 46-224 pg/mL and less than 0.45 pg/mL respectively.

I've always felt the best on TRT doses with no AI however sometimes it's just not great.

My theory is low SHBG results in high sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors due to a fast estadiol clearance time. This combined with a very high free estradiol level results in large swings from high to low in free estradiol and an inability to find the "sweet spot" so to speak.

Anyways I'm getting some more tests done to test some other ideas I have. Certainly a large part of it is in my head but it's definitely not 100%.

If anyone else has any ideas I'm interested in hearing them.


I have the same problems, low shbg
I had to come off of steroids and trt....
 

AVelasques911

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You're likely doing what I did and probably still do from time to time. You're floating through your sweet spot on the way down and then back up. My issue is I periodically take masteron and also HCG and both of these affect your E2. It's hard to gauge where it's at. When I just run T, I can control it perfectly. I've had my E from 5-50 over the past few years and for sure had much higher libido at 5, then anything above 30. 15-20, seems to be my sweet spot.

This is likely what I think is happening too. I don't think it's an SHBG issue because 6-8 months is a really long time and I felt great that entire time. There were periods where I dropped the HCG because I felt no difference on or off it, I don't recall how many of those months I was off but I'm glad you brought it up because I might drop it again for a while and see if I dial in easier.

HCG is a waste for me, the fertility effect is actually a downside as I don't want kids. Only reason I'm a slave to it is I'm just afraid of my nuts shrinking, though TBH I cycled without it for a good 3 years or so many years ago and I don't think I ever noticed any difference in size.

The more I look at it though the more I think my sweet spot might actually be in the 10-20 range. First week on letrozole I felt like I was 16, I was literally up at 4 A.M. and just doing things non-stop all day, sex drive was almost unbearable..... after a week that disappeared but I even remember thinking "OMG I found the holy grail, letro will be my new AI", obviously dumb in hindsight but I felt THAT good.
 

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