Using gear in alcohol/drug recovery?

[garcia]

Yeas, let's get rid of one chemical dependance for another, brilliant thinking!

If you weren't powerless, you could have and would have quit at any time.

That is the key, you have to want to stop. If you don't want to, nothing will help you.



You were in for 2 years and didn't learn anything. You tuned out because of the mention of God. Do you know why the steps include God and meetings end with the Lord's Prayer? It's becaue each and every step has roots in the Bible whether you like it or not. That's why it's there. AA was not started as a program to "convert" people as you want to say. Bill W and his buddy atarted it because they themselves were alcoholics and needed help. AA and other 12 step programs have HELPED millions of people get sober over the past 70+ years. Why? Because the programs work! You don't have to leave it up to God to help you, you have to help yourself. But you can't rely solely on yourself, as that is the person that got you into the mess you were in, NOT God. Your problem is that you can't get past the fact that God is used in the program literature.

I hope you continue to stay sober, I really do. But what is the point of bashing AA/NA when it has proven successful for over 70+ years. I was in AA for many years as well, I don't attend meetings anymore as I got tired of hearing/seeing the same people walk in and out the doors with their stories of relapse and trying to help new people.

See what I mean about getting bashed if you criticize the "program?" Very cultlike.

You say the program works. Google the success of 12-step programs. About 10%. You even said yourself that you left b/c of everybody relapsing.

As I said, I am an atheist, therefore anything from any religious text is viewed by me as invalid and not based in reality. Just my view.

I am not "bashing" the program. Just stating my experience.

Fucking relax

 

[osiris]

See what I mean about getting bashed if you criticize the "program?" Very cultlike.

You say the program works. Google the success of 12-step programs. About 10%. You even said yourself that you left b/c of everybody relapsing.

As I said, I am an atheist, therefore anything from any religious text is viewed by me as invalid and not based in reality. Just my view.

I am not "bashing" the program. Just stating my experience.

Fucking relax

Bro, that percwnt is the percent of people who attend meetings, not the percent who are in recovery working a program. It works if you work it.

Just to show you statistics as secretary at my home group, we routinely have 30+ attendees. We have 21 people with at least one year in my homegroup alone. We have 1 with 30+, 2 with 25+, 4 with 20+ & everyone else in the middle. The only clean time I could get was when I was institutionalized till I fpund NA. So for me the amount of recovery I have was unimaginable before. You dont have to believe in god buddy, he still believes in you

Before you start on some,comment concerning willpower, I have plenty. I served this country honorably for 5 years in the Marines. I have a combat action ribbon with 4 stara, and not from sittinf behind a desk. I guarantee 95% of the world could not do what I did. You know what, all that willpower wasnt enougj when it was myself I was fighting. By definition , you cannot empower ypurself to be stronger than yourself. You can however change yourself slowly, day by day, habot by habit the hardest part is understanding that in order to win you have to admit defeat. Its that pride that drove a lot of us to drugs and kept us from getting help. That pride is one of the character defects our addiction thrives on. You skimmed the surface but you lack a deep understanding. At its core , na/aa is a series of repeatable and simple steps that alleviate the obsession and compulsion of addiction. Thats ok though, because if you EVER need us, we will be here for u and with no judgement.

I didnt bash you at all garcia. Richie gets excitable but in private cpnversations, he is an awesome person.

Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk

 

[garcia]

No, Orion. Didn't say you bashed me. I said I'm not bashing 12-step. The facts are the facts, though.

Here is some of the research:
**broken link removed**

MOST people stop on their own.

There is MUCH more research, but you can find it.

Orion, your homegrouop is the exception. You are lucky to have those guys.

 

[osiris]

No, Orion. Didn't say you bashed me. I said I'm not bashing 12-step. The facts are the facts, though.

Here is some of the research:
**broken link removed**

MOST people stop on their own.

There is MUCH more research, but you can find it.

Orion, your homegrouop is the exception. You are lucky to have those guys.

Those are studies on addicts who are the best liars in the wprld, egotistical and narcissistic. Only people that have truly found peace are going to answer the question truthfully and give credit on stopping to anyone but themselves. Those are not facts but data, that is skewed. NONE of us quit because we wanted to. For me, I didn't wake up in a hotel room in vegas with oz's of coke, hot naked girls in bed and I suddenly said, wow let me get sober. I was spiritually bereft and sat on the edge of the bed and begged god to tale my life. I tjen injected enough coke to kill an elephant. Guess what, I didnt die. It wasnt my time.

You stick with facts. I will live yhis life that is sooooo amazing its better than the best dream I could have come up with before. You do you and me and god will keep living this awesome adventure. I would ask you to keep nrgative opinions on 12 step programs to your self when they might saver just one person reading this. Btw have you noticed the difference in our posts? Tone, demeanor etc? I am at peace garcia, are you? Good luck buddy and if you ever need me just reach out

Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk

 

[garcia]

ok, buddy. Glad you're happy. That's cool.

I'm happier now than when I was dependant on addictive drugs.

I will stick with the data. Can't drink the cool aid. Say hello to god for me.

 

[osiris]

No, Orion. Didn't say you bashed me. I said I'm not bashing 12-step. The facts are the facts, though.

Here is some of the research:
**broken link removed**

MOST people stop on their own.

There is MUCH more research, but you can find it.

Orion, your homegrouop is the exception. You are lucky to have those guys.

Where the hell did you get orion

Thats an entirely different pantheon of gods than Osiris is part of.

 

[garcia]

Wow. 15 hr day yesterday. I must have been getting goofy at that point. The first thing to go is attention to detail. lol

 

[gisnb]

No, Orion. Didn't say you bashed me. I said I'm not bashing 12-step. The facts are the facts, though.

Here is some of the research:
**broken link removed**

MOST people stop on their own.

There is MUCH more research, but you can find it.

Orion, your homegrouop is the exception. You are lucky to have those guys.

No it is Not the exception!

As for success rate, the numbers are hard to quantify. I went to treatment and AA/NA several times without much success until I was finally ready to quit and accepted the help. It failed (as far as pure numbers and stats go) five times for me and only worked one time. This one time has turned into 15 years though.

I'm agnostic. I don't claim to be atheist because I don't know if there is some sort of god or not. I have struggled with the god thing from time to time myself in recovery, but my sponsor summed it up nicely for me.

He said, "If there is a God, I'm not it." That's the point. I choose to surround myself with the openminded people in recovery and not let the closedminded judgemental people bother me.

After all, it's not called Well Adjusted Anonymous. Put a bunch of crazy alcoholics and addicts together, and some are still going to try to impose their will on others, some will lie, some will be assholes, etc. Hell, that happens with a bunch of so called "normal" people.

It's not Utopia...it's life and it's easy to pick anything apart by focusing on what I don't like or don't agree with...or I can focus on what I can relate to and on what works for me.

It's a choice. Just sayin...

 

[osiris]

No it is Not the exception!

As for success rate, the numbers are hard to quantify. I went to treatment and AA/NA several times without much success until I was finally ready to quit and accepted the help. It failed (as far as pure numbers and stats go) five times for me and only worked one time. This one time has turned into 15 years though.

I'm agnostic. I don't claim to be atheist because I don't know if there is some sort of god or not. I have struggled with the god thing from time to time myself in recovery, but my sponsor summed it up nicely for me.

He said, "If there is a God, I'm not it." That's the point. I choose to surround myself with the openminded people in recovery and not let the closedminded judgemental people bother me.

After all, it's not called Well Adjusted Anonymous. Put a bunch of crazy alcoholics and addicts together, and some are still going to try to impose their will on others, some will lie, some will be assholes, etc. Hell, that happens with a bunch of so called "normal" people.

It's not Utopia...it's life and it's easy to pick anything apart by focusing on what I don't like or don't agree with...or I can focus on what I can relate to and on what works for me.

It's a choice. Just sayin...

Damn right!!! 15 years clean. Thats what i am talking about.

Keep up the awesome work and it failed for me a number of times too man. But like you said it only had to work ONCE. And it took me being at the end of my rope. i had to hit rock bottom. Once i was there, surrender was easy, i had nowhere to go but up=-)

 

[alecaf]

You dont need AA. If you wanna quit just quit and find what helps you stay sober. Truth is AA helps 10-15% of those who join it thats about as much as the placebo group and most drug trials. AA has some things that were great for me such as support and identification, thats it. Following a bible-like book did nothing for me staying sober. I can tell you that today i go out and have one or two beers and im fine, but then again maybe my addiction or whatever wasnt as serious as yours might be. I feel like AA contributes to the "all or nothing" lifestyle i had before which is the main thing i wanted to change.

 

[phosphorylation]

Without getting into statistics regarding recovery, which may or may not be complete bullshit....I would just like to say that I have seen people relapse while on cycle and attribute it to their cockiness. With that being said, I have been in recovery for 20months now and I choose to use gear. I am by no means reccomending this, just sharing my experience. It hasnt ever made me want to go out and use or drink. If anything, it has increased my self-image and made me want to work harder. I stay very well connected, attend atleast 5 meetings a week, have a sponsor etc... if the worst thing I'm doing is some juice and having entirely too much sex, then life is pretty good Like Osirus said, you just gotta find that bottom first. Mine was pitiful and incomprehensible, so I don't ever wanna go back.

 

[MantusJohn]

It works, if you work it?

What exactly does that mean?

If I follow a program that says I can't drink
or use drugs, then I won't drink or use drugs?

This alcohol is kickin my ass I am serious.
I don't get drunk but I love vodka ... At least
a pint a day most the time 2 pints every day..

I can stop for few days with no problem if I am
playing around with my girl's son at her mothers
or doing something productive but when sitting around
the house I like to have some.

I am not working now just moved to different state
so I sit around alot watching tv or researching online..
When not having sex that is .. with either my girl or
my right hand. I do prefer my girl but she can't keep
up while I am on this cut mix.

I need a kick in the ass and she isn't going to do it.
She lets me do whatever I want and that's not such
a good idea.

 

[dylanwil08]

You are the only one who can know if you're an alcoholic/addict. If you're worried about it now you should really consider checking out a few meetings, keep an open mind and just listen to the experiences of others. You will find that some people in the program had to go to extreme places like Osiris said or as I did, stuck in my room shooting opiates into my dick because all my veins went bad; but others found their answer much earlier, they didn't have to go down that other, darker path. I hope that if you are an alcoholic you can find your answer sooner rather than later, thats the beauty of the rooms. Thanks to all for the advice!

 

[osiris]

What exactly does that mean?

If I follow a program that says I can't drink
or use drugs, then I won't drink or use drugs?

This alcohol is kickin my ass I am serious.
I don't get drunk but I love vodka ... At least
a pint a day most the time 2 pints every day..

I can stop for few days with no problem if I am
playing around with my girl's son at her mothers
or doing something productive but when sitting around
the house I like to have some.

I am not working now just moved to different state
so I sit around alot watching tv or researching online..
When not having sex that is .. with either my girl or
my right hand. I do prefer my girl but she can't keep
up while I am on this cut mix.

I need a kick in the ass and she isn't going to do it.
She lets me do whatever I want and that's not such
a good idea.

At its core its not about not using, lets just call anything that alters your mind a drug, and i believe alcohol falls into this category, its about correcting the character defects that led you to seek comfort in the drugs. If you just stop using, you are still the same person you were when you picked up the drugs and when things get tough for you, guess where you will turn again.

Working a program involves taking the suggestions of others, attending meetings, working the steps(i mean if you are in a 12 step program, it kinda behooves you to work the steps...=-)) and working on becoming a better person. People think that the programs are to stay clean but thats not it all, the steps and the programs are a framework and program to become a better person. To correct our character defects.

if you want to talk more buddy, pm me and i will give you my email address. I am here for anyone addict that is still sick and suffering. I can tell you this though bud, my life today is so much more than i dreamed it ever could be=-)

 

[renewlyf]

Great Thread!

Most of the comments have been very productive. I have some things to add but I'm running late to a CA (Cocaine Anonymous) meeting.
Just a quick comment about AA's effectivness. On the top of page 58 of the AA big book it states "Rarely have we seen a person fail that has thooughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, uasually men and women that are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves " Bill Wilson later commented when asked if he would change anything in the book. He stated that he would change "Rarely to Never". So if you base it's success on every peroson that comes to an AA, NA, CA whatever A and never returns than it looks dismal. However if you walk into the meetings I go to and hang around the people I do. It's success rate is out of this world! I would call it miraculous! I look forward to more of this thread tomorrow!

 

[Gators]

Osiris and Pete both said some really good stuff, they have it going on!

I hated AA / NA when i quit coke 21 years ago, and never went through recovery, i just quit smoking shit on a can because it was going to kill me soon or ruin my life. The pain of continuing was greater than the fear of making a change.

I never stopped alcohol, managed it pretty well for years, until the crap started hitting the fan, then i began self medicating w/ vodka. All the baggage i had was still there, it never went away, and resurfaced with a vengeance. Divorce, failing business, and getting off alcohol all at the same time was more than i could take, i scratched my head several nights with a .357. The pain of continuing my being hardheaded finally got greater than the fear of change, and i tried AA again. Hated it at first, but i was noticing people that were truly happy and were helping others. I decided i wanted some of that, so i started the process of the 12 steps. I never understood the difference between Spirituality and Religion until i got involved and REALLY working the steps, but WOW what a change in outlook.

2.5 years later i'm remarried, business is still kicking but in this economy is still limping along, but that's OK, i no longer judge myself on how nice my 'stuff' is (house, car, etc), and most importantly, still sober. I also rejoined the ranks of being employed with a GREAT job (in addition to still having my business). Things happen when they're supposed to. For the first time in my life, i'm ok with ME, i owe it all to the 12 step program. I never had any idea i could truly be happy. No, everyday is not all peaches and sunshine, it's called life, there are ups and downs, but now i have a much different perspective.

To each their own, but it's critical to remain sober and deal with the baggage we all carry around. For me, the 12 steps and AA enabled me to go through a transformation, but hey, whatever works. I saw many agnostics / atheists go through a transformation in the program, it happened once they (and myself) stripped away all the religious stuff that was pounded in their heads during their life.

Peace

 

[ripw44]

Well God comes up often as a stumbling block for those seeking recovery. I am an atheist with 9 1/2 years clean in a 12 step program. If you read the literature (NA) you will see that your higher power is totally up to you. I have several HP's. Time, knowledge, the group, google (lol).
There are two ways to get and stay clean in my opinion. The first one is just quitting on your own. Some people can do this but why would you want to? I prefer to have help during tough times. The other way is with the help of others (12 steps).
The NA lit says that one addict helping another is without parallel. I agree..

The original question is a good one. I have often wondered what constitutes a relapse. Some say any mood or mind altering substances yet chug 5 cups of coffee and smoke a cigar. I believe that there is a gray area. AAS falls into the gray area. The gray area is what I believe one has to decide for themselves if it something that will hinder their recovery or not. I personally feel in my case that AAS would not hinder my recovery. I say this because I have been on TRT for the past 6 years and I became used to giving myself shots. At first the needles really bothered me (or maybe they excited me). I was an IV drug user.

Bottom line...as Osiris said, find someone to be 100% honest with. If you are working a progam to the best of your ability and doing the things that you know you need to do to stay clean then you will be ok.

 

[garcia]

Well God comes up often as a stumbling block for those seeking recovery. I am an atheist with 9 1/2 years clean in a 12 step program. If you read the literature (NA) you will see that your higher power is totally up to you. I have several HP's. Time, knowledge, the group, google (lol).
There are two ways to get and stay clean in my opinion. The first one is just quitting on your own. Some people can do this but why would you want to? I prefer to have help during tough times. The other way is with the help of others (12 steps).
The NA lit says that one addict helping another is without parallel. I agree..

The original question is a good one. I have often wondered what constitutes a relapse. Some say any mood or mind altering substances yet chug 5 cups of coffee and smoke a cigar. I believe that there is a gray area. AAS falls into the gray area. The gray area is what I believe one has to decide for themselves if it something that will hinder their recovery or not. I personally feel in my case that AAS would not hinder my recovery. I say this because I have been on TRT for the past 6 years and I became used to giving myself shots. At first the needles really bothered me (or maybe they excited me). I was an IV drug user.

Bottom line...as Osiris said, find someone to be 100% honest with. If you are working a progam to the best of your ability and doing the things that you know you need to do to stay clean then you will be ok.

Great post. I believe that the best thing about NA/AA is the personal interaction.

You are going to meet some real weirdos, as well. Just like any group, though. As you are dealing with addicts, it gets pretty weird.

 

[Gators]

AA gave me the ability to deal with and confront my personal demons, the excessive drinking at the end was just a pussies way of dealing w/ things, in other words, i ran. Found out the alcohol consumption was just a symptom of deeper, bigger issues. Once you deal with that crap, and doesn't matter if it's a 12 step program, religion, inner strength buiding, WHATEVER, then being able to do things in moderation become MUCH easier. That's the key my friends, IMO, living in that 'sweet spot'.

 

[osiris]

This is a really good thread. I have been wondering about this subject for some time now. I have been sober for almost a year now and am getting ready to do my first cycle. I personally feel that there are good addictions and bad addictions. Alcohol and drinking in bars always led me to violence and jails and prisons. I am also addicted to working out though, although to me that is a good addiction. Working out has led to more of a positive outlook on life, greater financial success, enhanced self image and a sense of personal accomplishment. In my opinion gear will only enhance the effects of an already positive addiction. So I don't see anything wrong with it.
I go to 5-7 meetings a week sometimes and I see people who are in "recovery" who have scripts for opiate pain meds and psych meds. I try not to be judgemental but a part of me inside says that those people are not truly sober. But to each his own I guess.
Like I said before, great thread! I was actually surprised at how many people on this site consider themselves addicts/alcoholics.

gear in recovery is a completely personal choice. As for judging others, i understand your sentiments but i tell you, that as you progress in recovery it matters less and less to you. Your clean time is a celebration of your recovery and you know that people that are not truly clean are really only cheating themselves out of what life has to offer. Your recovery is the most important because once you let go of those resentments, those people accruing false clean time are going to see the serenity that you have and are going to eventually think....wow, this guy has half the clean time i have and he is soooooo much further in recovery and is so much happier than me. Hopefully that leads them to seom self-realizations and they can finally get honest with themselves.

I agre with what you are saying to an extent but to me, all addictions are bad. I think that we can do all things in moderation , minus drink/get high, because once we allow one facet of our life to become unbalanced, then we end up begining a cascade of old behaviors and patterns that will eventually translate into us returning to the old substances.

Just my 2 cents. I believe gear can be used in Active Recovery without compromising it.

I applaud you going ot that many meetings per week. I really want to tell you great job on getting and staying clean. =-) For what its worth i am very proud of you both for doing it and for sharing about it.