What are your gains like off cycle?

[Deleted member 106824]

I know a lot of guys on this forum never really go off, but for those that do what are the in-between periods like for you? I am still young, in college, so I don't plan on cruising with TRT doses or anything like that (6ft, 190lb, ~14%). I actually have yet to do my first real cycle, I've only done one 1 month designer steroid cycle thus far. But for those of you who come off is that entire time off just spent trying to keep everything you've gained from the cycle and realistically losing some?

When I did my designer steroid cycle I was at a low point of the few months prior, it got me some considerable size and strength gains for such a short time which pretty much continued into PCT. Now every time I step into the gym its a fight to keep the gains. I tried to cut about a month after the end of my PCT and apparently it was too early to do so because I lost some size and strength. I had blood work at the end of my cycle and it was fine so I don't think I'm suffering from low test levels or anything but when I'm in the gym it just sucks because whereas before I would be psyched to try to beat my last workout now I'm just struggling. Its nothing crazy but a rep here and there. As mentioned I tried to cut and lost some fat but also size, then i raise calories back up and seem to gain fat back and no size. For the record this is similar to how the gym was for about a month prior to the DS cycle, no real gains maybe even losing a little for whatever reason. If I wasn't starting a legit Test + Oral cycle in 3 weeks I'd definitely be changing my routine at this point but basically I'm just trying to hold on to all I can at this point before then.

So is this what I have to expect every time I come off in the future? Nice gains for the 8 weeks or whatever it is followed by all that time struggling to hold onto gains and therefore not wanting to be in the gym because I know its just going to be worse? I'm not one prone to depression or anything like that but it just blows having no excitement for the gym and looking shittier every week.

For the record this is one reason why I've recently become interested in the 2on/4off approach, haven't really seen it mentioned much on this site though. The idea being 2 weeks of a fast ester, the gains of which continues into weeks 3 and 4 or so during which you use nolva, then weeks 5 and 6 you use nothing and then back on for 2 weeks etc. with the hope being slow steady gains and never having to deal with much of a crash or too long before getting to go back on.

 

[bieberhole69]

I lose strength, size, and weight off cycle. I typically lose 10lbs on the big 3 during PCT (and whatever water weight, glycogen I have...I take an AI during cycles so can't say for sure, but at least 5lbs post PCT), and then it holds steady for months. About 6mo-8mo later I start losing strength very slowly or hit plateaus I cannot overcome, no matter how I change my training or alter rep scheme etc. I always come out stronger than before, even if it's just 10-20lbs on the big 3.

I'm 5'10" and hold about 195lbs with abs barely visible with no hormonal support. I lean out into single digit bodyfat (probably 8% at the leanest) around 170lbs. That happens everytime, just takes longer and longer to return to that (about a year post cycle now).

This is just me though. I started at 5'10" 136lbs 4 years ago.

 

[nickels]

I know a lot of guys on this forum never really go off, but for those that do what are the in-between periods like for you? I am still young, in college, so I don't plan on cruising with TRT doses or anything like that (6ft, 190lb, ~14%). I actually have yet to do my first real cycle, I've only done one 1 month designer steroid cycle thus far. But for those of you who come off is that entire time off just spent trying to keep everything you've gained from the cycle and realistically losing some?

When I did my designer steroid cycle I was at a low point of the few months prior, it got me some considerable size and strength gains for such a short time which pretty much continued into PCT. Now every time I step into the gym its a fight to keep the gains. I tried to cut about a month after the end of my PCT and apparently it was too early to do so because I lost some size and strength. I had blood work at the end of my cycle and it was fine so I don't think I'm suffering from low test levels or anything but when I'm in the gym it just sucks because whereas before I would be psyched to try to beat my last workout now I'm just struggling. Its nothing crazy but a rep here and there. As mentioned I tried to cut and lost some fat but also size, then i raise calories back up and seem to gain fat back and no size. For the record this is similar to how the gym was for about a month prior to the DS cycle, no real gains maybe even losing a little for whatever reason. If I wasn't starting a legit Test + Oral cycle in 3 weeks I'd definitely be changing my routine at this point but basically I'm just trying to hold on to all I can at this point before then.

So is this what I have to expect every time I come off in the future? Nice gains for the 8 weeks or whatever it is followed by all that time struggling to hold onto gains and therefore not wanting to be in the gym because I know its just going to be worse? I'm not one prone to depression or anything like that but it just blows having no excitement for the gym and looking shittier every week.

For the record this is one reason why I've recently become interested in the 2on/4off approach, haven't really seen it mentioned much on this site though. The idea being 2 weeks of a fast ester, the gains of which continues into weeks 3 and 4 or so during which you use nolva, then weeks 5 and 6 you use nothing and then back on for 2 weeks etc. with the hope being slow steady gains and never having to deal with much of a crash or too long before getting to go back on.

Any chance that the struggling you had was due to overtraining?

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I lose strength, size, and weight off cycle. I typically lose 10lbs on the big 3 during PCT (and whatever water weight, glycogen I have...I take an AI during cycles so can't say for sure, but at least 5lbs post PCT), and then it holds steady for months. About 6mo-8mo later I start losing strength very slowly or hit plateaus I cannot overcome, no matter how I change my training or alter rep scheme etc. I always come out stronger than before, even if it's just 10-20lbs on the big 3.

I'm 5'10" and hold about 195lbs with abs barely visible with no hormonal support. I lean out into single digit bodyfat (probably 8% at the leanest) around 170lbs. That happens everytime, just takes longer and longer to return to that (about a year post cycle now).

This is just me though. I started at 5'10" 136lbs 4 years ago.

Thats interesting that you stay the same for that long post cycle and then lose some. Why do you think that would be? Also thats a pretty long time to be off in general, how often do you do a cycle?

I think I might not care as much as long as there were net gains but considering my DS cycle was only 25 days I'm almost back to where I was before from a strength standpoint other than maybe a little stronger with shoulders and back. Hopefully it will be much better with a 10 week Test + Oral cycle. But essentially you're saying that you do end up getting weaker throughout your time off. Is this just something you accept going into the gym?

Oh and you mentioned your stats, do you lean out while off? and what are your doses like if you don't mind.


I know the net result of AAS use will be larger yearly gains but having half the time losing strength is definitely a downside. As mentioned I really used to look forward to the gym almost every time I went in there (well, besides when cutting) because I would get a rep here, 5lb there, etc.

Anyone have thoughts on the 2on/4off approach for slower but continuous gains.

Any chance that the struggling you had was due to overtraining?

Its possible but I wouldn't say its that likely, my volume isn't very high. I have a 4 day split:
Sun: Back (6-9 sets), Biceps (3 sets), calves (5 sets)
Wed: Chest (2 sets), Shoulders (6 sets), triceps (3 sets)
Thurs: Quads (5 sets), Hams (4 sets), calves (5 sets), biceps (3 sets)
Sat: Chest (2 sets), Shoulders (6 sets), triceps (3 sets)

If it was any other time (i.e. if I wasn't about to do a cycle) and my results were like this I would likely start an intermediate 5x5 like Bill Starr's or something where I start light and build up to a PR over 4 weeks or so, but with my body already seeming to want to take any chance it has to lose muscle I'm worried that during those 3-4 weeks I would just lose even more size and strength.

 

[tman88]

What happens off-cycle will depend primarily on 3 things in my limited experience: diet, amount of muscle you hold in relation to genetic max, training.

I have found that diet is the most important component to maintaining gains off-cycle. I'm going to give a break-down and you can take what you want from holding gains off-cycle. What I have learned is calories either need to be at maintenance or slightly above if you hope to hold significant muscle off-cycle. The muscle lost comes back fairly quickly after hopping back on however and correcting diet.

Off the top of my head (limited sample size I know):
1st cycle - Kept calories above maintenance until about a month post cycle. Didn't lose much of anything to that point. Started cutting because I did not eat clean enough during cycle and missed having veins on my abs. Did not have optimal diet and mainly focused on calories (protein way to low), lost a decent amount of muscle and was almost back to square one.

2nd cycle - I was fairly lean after cycle so I did not cut afterwords, but kept around maintenance instead. Lost a small amount of strength and size over the six months I took in between. Gained a little bit of fat due to the diet loosening up as the months went on and the training becoming less focused (plus much lower test obviously) but overall didn't lose.

3rd cycle - Full on bulker, got pretty big but a little too sloppy at the end for my liking. A few days before starting PCT a long-term relationship ended out of the blue. Starting with PCT I essentially crash dieted from 240-195 with little regard to diet, my head was elsewhere. I was going to the motions at the gym. Lost about as much muscle as fat and was a significant setback, but I learned a lot. Took nearly a year off in between and regained some of the lost muscle naturally.

Current cycle - regained the remainder of my lost muscle thanks to muscle memory within 6 weeks (test e, npp). Currently around 10% and running low dose test, dieting. Adding tren for the first time in a couple weeks with plans of going sub 7%. Longer cycle than those before. I will play with peptides off-cycle and...keep my diet very tight. I do not plan on going above 12% bf in the future to prevent the temptation to diet off-cycle and lose muscle.

A lot of info I know. But I generally feel more info is better. I feel because of what I did off-cycle my first and third were wastes except what I learned form them. In the future my number one priority will be keeping bf low during cycle so I do not have to drop calories off-cycle.

PS: I wouldn't bother with 2 on 4 off, but that is opinion and not experience.

 

[jay_dub]

Once you start to play with AAS, say goodbye to any off cycle gains. Plain and simple. There will be none.

And dont waste money on some sort of imaginary perfect PCT. It don't exist. You will shrink while off regardless of what you do.

Just keep your diet clean and maintain what you can. It's all you can do.

You said you were in college, so I know how broke you can be during that time, but your only hope at any sort of maintenance during off periods is GH. If you can afford it then use it.

People sugarcoat the fuck out of this subject and I dont get it. Off = SHRINK

 

[bieberhole69]

Thats interesting that you stay the same for that long post cycle and then lose some. Why do you think that would be? Also thats a pretty long time to be off in general, how often do you do a cycle?

I think I might not care as much as long as there were net gains but considering my DS cycle was only 25 days I'm almost back to where I was before from a strength standpoint other than maybe a little stronger with shoulders and back. Hopefully it will be much better with a 10 week Test + Oral cycle. But essentially you're saying that you do end up getting weaker throughout your time off. Is this just something you accept going into the gym?

Oh and you mentioned your stats, do you lean out while off? and what are your doses like if you don't mind.


I know the net result of AAS use will be larger yearly gains but having half the time losing strength is definitely a downside. As mentioned I really used to look forward to the gym almost every time I went in there (well, besides when cutting) because I would get a rep here, 5lb there, etc.

I spent 2 years inbetween the last cycle and this one. Previously, my highest dosing was 500 test 600 eq IIRC with some superdrol thrown in at the beginning. Used to go by the rule time on = time off at least, but sometimes things would come up and i'd spent minimum 6mos typically inbetween cycles.

This previous cycle I ran 500mg test, 600mg eq, 40mg dbol wk 1-4, and 25mg tren ED last 4 weeks. I went from 172-203 (first cycle in 2 years) setting PRs left and right and gaining like crazy. I had my diet perfectly in check (that's the thing I learned over the past 2 years while using no hormones) so didn't gain a ton of fat. Best look of my life.

It's now week 4 of my cruise, 250mg test per week. I've gained a bit of fat, as expected when I come off cycle, but the water is gone so I look about the same as I did the last week of cycle. I set a PR last week deadlifting, and have lost very little size or vascularity. Then again, I'm only 4 weeks "off" and i'm cruising.

Once you start to play with AAS, say goodbye to any off cycle gains. Plain and simple. There will be none.

And dont waste money on some sort of imaginary perfect PCT. It don't exist. You will shrink while off regardless of what you do.

Just keep your diet clean and maintain what you can. It's all you can do.

You said you were in college, so I know how broke you can be during that time, but your only hope at any sort of maintenance during off periods is GH. If you can afford it then use it.

People sugarcoat the fuck out of this subject and I dont get it. Off = SHRINK

This x1million...which is what I was trying to state in my original post!

 

[waynaferd]

Jay_dub said it best!!

IME gains are kept waaaay easier on a trt dose cruisec ompared to that PCT jive.

 

[Ironman2010]

I'd have to agree with Jay_dub. Drop your test to around 150mg-200mg. And try and maintain through diet and training what you have. I've tried coming completely off to many times, saying that i dont end up to bad as i dont run alot of AAS in the off-season at all....pretty much just test at low dosage. But for sure in many other people, crusiing or coming off much more emphasis is put on trying to keep what you have gained, or near to it rather then trying to make even more gains

 

[Valens]

Once you start to play with AAS, say goodbye to any off cycle gains. Plain and simple. There will be none.

And dont waste money on some sort of imaginary perfect PCT. It don't exist. You will shrink while off regardless of what you do.

Just keep your diet clean and maintain what you can. It's all you can do.

You said you were in college, so I know how broke you can be during that time, but your only hope at any sort of maintenance during off periods is GH. If you can afford it then use it.

People sugarcoat the fuck out of this subject and I dont get it. Off = SHRINK

spot on

 

[Pharm_Fed]

I can maintain while off, but if I eat to gain I just end up getting fat.

 

[desibaba]

Off = SHRINK

+1 I only get smaller and fatter when im off the shit. Regardless of diet or training. Plus i think being on Testosterone makes my blood sugar more stable because when im off i crave sweets all the time.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

What happens off-cycle will depend primarily on 3 things in my limited experience: diet, amount of muscle you hold in relation to genetic max, training.

I have found that diet is the most important component to maintaining gains off-cycle. I'm going to give a break-down and you can take what you want from holding gains off-cycle. What I have learned is calories either need to be at maintenance or slightly above if you hope to hold significant muscle off-cycle. The muscle lost comes back fairly quickly after hopping back on however and correcting diet.

Off the top of my head (limited sample size I know):
1st cycle - Kept calories above maintenance until about a month post cycle. Didn't lose much of anything to that point. Started cutting because I did not eat clean enough during cycle and missed having veins on my abs. Did not have optimal diet and mainly focused on calories (protein way to low), lost a decent amount of muscle and was almost back to square one.

2nd cycle - I was fairly lean after cycle so I did not cut afterwords, but kept around maintenance instead. Lost a small amount of strength and size over the six months I took in between. Gained a little bit of fat due to the diet loosening up as the months went on and the training becoming less focused (plus much lower test obviously) but overall didn't lose.

3rd cycle - Full on bulker, got pretty big but a little too sloppy at the end for my liking. A few days before starting PCT a long-term relationship ended out of the blue. Starting with PCT I essentially crash dieted from 240-195 with little regard to diet, my head was elsewhere. I was going to the motions at the gym. Lost about as much muscle as fat and was a significant setback, but I learned a lot. Took nearly a year off in between and regained some of the lost muscle naturally.

Current cycle - regained the remainder of my lost muscle thanks to muscle memory within 6 weeks (test e, npp). Currently around 10% and running low dose test, dieting. Adding tren for the first time in a couple weeks with plans of going sub 7%. Longer cycle than those before. I will play with peptides off-cycle and...keep my diet very tight. I do not plan on going above 12% bf in the future to prevent the temptation to diet off-cycle and lose muscle.

A lot of info I know. But I generally feel more info is better. I feel because of what I did off-cycle my first and third were wastes except what I learned form them. In the future my number one priority will be keeping bf low during cycle so I do not have to drop calories off-cycle.

PS: I wouldn't bother with 2 on 4 off, but that is opinion and not experience.

I appreciate all the info. Your first cycle sounds like how mine was and your second cycle sounds how I hope mine to be. Basically instead of an all out bulk I hope this coming cycle to be a recomp where I am happy with my body fat afterwards, because clearly when I cut post cycle it is an issue and I really want to be holding those gains the entire time until my next cycle with no cutting.

Once you start to play with AAS, say goodbye to any off cycle gains. Plain and simple. There will be none.

And dont waste money on some sort of imaginary perfect PCT. It don't exist. You will shrink while off regardless of what you do.

Just keep your diet clean and maintain what you can. It's all you can do.

You said you were in college, so I know how broke you can be during that time, but your only hope at any sort of maintenance during off periods is GH. If you can afford it then use it.

People sugarcoat the fuck out of this subject and I dont get it. Off = SHRINK

Are you saying don't use PCT in general or anything crazy? Last PCT for me was Nolva 40/40/20/10 and Adex at just 0.25mg EOD the last 2 weeks to control a possible E rebound, when I got my blood work done test was at 800ng/dl even though my base level is ~400, so apparently the adex was good but I just got blood work done this tuesday so we'll see soon where my levels are currently at.

I could probably get GH but idk about yearly, and I'd really rather not mess with peptides because from what I understand the health issues are a larger concern and the whole GH gut issue.

I spent 2 years inbetween the last cycle and this one. Previously, my highest dosing was 500 test 600 eq IIRC with some superdrol thrown in at the beginning. Used to go by the rule time on = time off at least, but sometimes things would come up and i'd spent minimum 6mos typically inbetween cycles.

This previous cycle I ran 500mg test, 600mg eq, 40mg dbol wk 1-4, and 25mg tren ED last 4 weeks. I went from 172-203 (first cycle in 2 years) setting PRs left and right and gaining like crazy. I had my diet perfectly in check (that's the thing I learned over the past 2 years while using no hormones) so didn't gain a ton of fat. Best look of my life.

It's now week 4 of my cruise, 250mg test per week. I've gained a bit of fat, as expected when I come off cycle, but the water is gone so I look about the same as I did the last week of cycle. I set a PR last week deadlifting, and have lost very little size or vascularity. Then again, I'm only 4 weeks "off" and i'm cruising.



This x1million...which is what I was trying to state in my original post!

Jay_dub said it best!!

IME gains are kept waaaay easier on a trt dose cruisec ompared to that PCT jive.

Hm, so even with cruising you lose gains...rough.

I don't think I'm quite ready to be on all the time. Ideally i'd be doing something like 2 cycles per year, or that 2of/4off approach. No one thinks the 2on/4off would be good? I'm only 21 and would like to have kids some day. I know being on doesn't necessarily mean not being able to have kids but still. When I'm 30+ I will prob be on TRT just for health reasons if nothing else.

I can maintain while off, but if I eat to gain I just end up getting fat.

+1 I only get smaller and fatter when im off the shit. Regardless of diet or training. Plus i think being on Testosterone makes my blood sugar more stable because when im off i crave sweets all the time.

Yea I mean if I actually look at the net difference between right after cycle and right now its probably only a couple pounds less muscle and about the same amount of fat (actually my waist is about 3/4in. less because I tried to cut but my arms are about 1/2in. less and I'm a little weaker), its just that every week was a little loss here, a little los there, so mentally its been shit.

Honestly at this point I don't even want to deal with it and know I won't make gains until my cycle anyway (I have finals and other crap with school the next 3 weeks) so I'm just going to hold my weight constant and do 3 full body workouts or something more fun for the next 3 weeks, hopefully just maintaining until i start the cycle.

So all in all, it does seem like I'll have to accept that if I'm coming completely off the time off will be spent losing some size strength. I really like that 2on/4off approach though and it makes sense in theory....what do you guys think is wrong with the idea?

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Also, when you guys go back on how quickly do you get all of the lost size/strength back? Part of the reason I'm just going to do what I find more fun for the next 2-3 weeks is because I figure even if it results in slightly more of a loss i'll probably just gain in all back in the 1st 1-2 weeks on cycle anyway (kick starting with superdrol).

 

[MaineGuy]

Also, when you guys go back on how quickly do you get all of the lost size/strength back? Part of the reason I'm just going to do what I find more fun for the next 2-3 weeks is because I figure even if it results in slightly more of a loss i'll probably just gain in all back in the 1st 1-2 weeks on cycle anyway (kick starting with superdrol).

Man, sounds like you really like superdrol, but if you are in this for your health, please find something else to kickstart with.

 

[jack of all]

the only gains off cycle are FAT!

 

[AlphaMaleDawg]

It isn't physically possible to gain muscle off cycle if you maxed out your gains on cycle. All you can do is maintain for x amount of time

 

[epoxy]

Yeah I don't have gains off cycle. it's partially a mental thing for me. I am much more motivated and on point when on cycle, because of how much $$$ i've invested into the gear. off cycle i pretty much just straight maintain what i have. i don't change my workout very much, but i don't try as hard to make strength gains, i'm not as willing to put in the extra work needed w/o gear.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Yeah I don't have gains off cycle. it's partially a mental thing for me. I am much more motivated and on point when on cycle, because of how much $$$ i've invested into the gear. off cycle i pretty much just straight maintain what i have. i don't change my workout very much, but i don't try as hard to make strength gains, i'm not as willing to put in the extra work needed w/o gear.

So you don't lower your volume off cycle? I notice though that you say you do maintain what you have, so you have no loss in size or strength at all? Planning on being into this lifestyle for the long run I definitely knew all along there would be times later in life (and most of the time after say 30-40) where I would overall be maintaining what I've gained, so if I'm really only gaining during cycle I guess that's OK], its the losses that really kill me mentally. Going in knowing that I'm likely going to be weaker is rough. and honestly even maintaining is annoying when you're in there busting your ass.

Man, sounds like you really like superdrol, but if you are in this for your health, please find something else to kickstart with.

Well its what I have and I hear good things about it. I could have bought dbol but I already had 8 weeks worth of superdrol and I was worried about the moonface and gyno issues with dbol (from what I've read the gyno from dbol is considerably harder to control than that from Test and I already look like I have slight pubertal gyno, although multiple docs have ensured me I dont).

It isn't physically possible to gain muscle off cycle if you maxed out your gains on cycle. All you can do is maintain for x amount of time

How much do you think is maintainable? I'm sure it's individual but is there a general guideline? My cycle is going to be 10 weeks Test E at 500mg/week and weeks 1-4 on 20mg superdrol per day. I'm looking to do a recomp because my body fat is too high now for me to be happy with it. It is my first legit cycle so I would hope for some pretty significant gains but I don't know from experience

 

[maldorf]

Once you start to play with AAS, say goodbye to any off cycle gains. Plain and simple. There will be none.

And dont waste money on some sort of imaginary perfect PCT. It don't exist. You will shrink while off regardless of what you do.

Just keep your diet clean and maintain what you can. It's all you can do.

You said you were in college, so I know how broke you can be during that time, but your only hope at any sort of maintenance during off periods is GH. If you can afford it then use it.

People sugarcoat the fuck out of this subject and I dont get it. Off = SHRINK

True words. Really the amount you lose just depends on how long you stay off! The longer you are off the more you lose, up to a point. After you lose a certain amount then you level off and can maintain easy. The main problem I think I had was I would never recover my natural test levels after cycles and my natural test was rock bottom. Once I started cruising on about 350 mg/wk test I was able to maintain most of the gains I put on during a cycle but even then I would lose some.

If you want to live a long and healthy life then honestly its best to never touch steroids, but if youre doing to jump into it then it is healthier to try and stay off as long as you can and not use so much that you wreck your natural test levels when you get off.