What valid role does T4 have with HGH?

[Wayacrucis]

Hey guys,

So this is something that I've pondered about and researched for quite sometime. So we know that GH (especially at 4IU+) will increase the conversion of T4 to T3. Now let's look at this in two different settings, off-season and pre contest.

Scenario 1: Off season (HGH present)

Let's assume we check our free t4 levels and they are low or low normal. But so long as free t3 levels are normal or high normal, what is the point of supplement with T4 in this case? In other words, IF free T3 levels are normal, is there any place in supplement with T4? I only see the need for supplement T4, if BOTH free T4 and free T3 are low.

Scenario 2: Pre Contest (HGH present)

In this setting fat lose the main goal. T3 is the active thyroid hormone, so why not just take T3 in this setting and skip T4 all together? I am not suggesting that people are using T4 instead of T3. However, I have noticed that many coaches are now recommending T4 + T3, in a 4:1 or 3:1 ratio - and again, I don't understand why the T4 is necessary?

 

[Fa Seeshus]

If they are blanket recommending thyroid with a set ratio instead of looking at thyroid hormone levels I would be skeptical. On the other hand, the ratio you mentioned is about the same distribution used in armour thyroid, which i personally like and am prescribed.

 

[Black Beard]

T4 has functions independent of conversion to T3. Also, some tissues are not good at utilizing serum T3. They prefer conversion on site.


@luki7788 has some info and experience on T4 for "enhanced" individuals and those using higher doses of HGH (Which will depress Free T4).

 

[Fleezy]

I’d be paranoid that UGL t4 is actually mislabeled t3

Be taking 150mcg of t3 a day and not knowing, watching all of my muscle disappear

 

[luki7788]

.

 

[luki7788]

Hey guys,

So this is something that I've pondered about and researched for quite sometime. So we know that GH (especially at 4IU+) will increase the conversion of T4 to T3. Now let's look at this in two different settings, off-season and pre contest.

Scenario 1: Off season (HGH present)

Let's assume we check our free t4 levels and they are low or low normal. But so long as free t3 levels are normal or high normal, what is the point of supplement with T4 in this case? In other words, IF free T3 levels are normal, is there any place in supplement with T4? I only see the need for supplement T4, if BOTH free T4 and free T3 are low.

Scenario 2: Pre Contest (HGH present)

In this setting fat lose the main goal. T3 is the active thyroid hormone, so why not just take T3 in this setting and skip T4 all together? I am not suggesting that people are using T4 instead of T3. However, I have noticed that many coaches are now recommending T4 + T3, in a 4:1 or 3:1 ratio - and again, I don't understand why the T4 is necessary?

I see that you completely do not understand the concept of using t4 - I will explain both cases a bit

scenario one - low t4 and high/normal t3 (typical situation after prolonged use of gh) if you see such blood results and you stay on it without supplementing with additional t3, you will lead to the fact that at some point your t3 will start to fall down and TSH will increase up, because the body will need more and more t4 for enhanced t3 conversion and your body will not be able to produce it itself, which in turn will lead to hypothyroidism

scenario two - you supplement t4 + t3 because you want your TSH to remain normal, i.e. you do not want to turn off natural production, but only to turn it up more - by giving only t3 without t4, you are 100% condemning yourself to turning off the work of your thyroid gland and TSH to practically zero - and we don't want that

 

[Fa Seeshus]

^^^^

Some studies have concluded that if you are predisposed to hypothyroidism and have subclinical hypothyroidism, long term GH will accelerate this dysfunction.

 

[Wayacrucis]

I see that you completely do not understand the concept of using t4 - I will explain both cases a bit

scenario one - low t4 and high/normal t3 (typical situation after prolonged use of gh) if you see such blood results and you stay on it without supplementing with additional t3, you will lead to the fact that at some point your t3 will start to fall down and TSH will increase up, because the body will need more and more t4 for enhanced t3 conversion and your body will not be able to produce it itself, which in turn will lead to hypothyroidism

scenario two - you supplement t4 + t3 because you want your TSH to remain normal, i.e. you do not want to turn off natural production, but only to turn it up more - by giving only t3 without t4, you are 100% condemning yourself to turning off the work of your thyroid gland and TSH to practically zero - and we don't want that

Thanks for the explanation Luki. However, does it not make more sense to supplement T4 in scenario one instead of T3 based on what you're saying?

Scenario 2 makes sense to me.

 

[luki7788]

Thanks for the explanation Luki. However, does it not make more sense to supplement T4 in scenario one instead of T3 based on what you're saying?

Scenario 2 makes sense to me.

of course I mean t4 in the first scenario - it's a spelling mistake

 

[Wayacrucis]

of course I mean t4 in the first scenario - it's a spelling mistake

Got it. I figured.

 

[bigzzz]

I see that you completely do not understand the concept of using t4 - I will explain both cases a bit

scenario one - low t4 and high/normal t3 (typical situation after prolonged use of gh) if you see such blood results and you stay on it without supplementing with additional t3, you will lead to the fact that at some point your t3 will start to fall down and TSH will increase up, because the body will need more and more t4 for enhanced t3 conversion and your body will not be able to produce it itself, which in turn will lead to hypothyroidism

scenario two - you supplement t4 + t3 because you want your TSH to remain normal, i.e. you do not want to turn off natural production, but only to turn it up more - by giving only t3 without t4, you are 100% condemning yourself to turning off the work of your thyroid gland and TSH to practically zero - and we don't want that

When would you choose then to add t3 instead of only t4?

 

[trackstar19]

There was literature and a period of time where it appeared t4 with gh was more advantageous towards reaping the benefits of GH. Bypassing the conversion of t4>t3 and utilizing strictly t3 with gh was considered limiting the benefits/results of the gh. If you look it up there was plenty of discussion on that (maybe ~5 of so years ago?). Not sure if that train of thought changed at all but the literature that went with that train of thought made sense

 

[Black Beard]

I’d be paranoid that UGL t4 is actually mislabeled t3

Be taking 150mcg of t3 a day and not knowing, watching all of my muscle disappear

In my opinion, stay away from any UGL thyroid hormone. The main two rationale;

1. Thyroid is dosed in MCG not MG, this is an extremely precise amount. Very easy to overdose or measure incorrectly. Only 1 mg of T4 or T3 is 1,000 mcg. This can put you in the hospital. The amounts we usually need for medicine or bodybuilding are 0.1-0.2 mcg T4 (100-200 mcg) and 0.005-0.05 T3 (5-50 mcg) . You can see how risky this can get with UGL.


2. Overseas online pharmacies sells pharma grade/high quality thyroid hormone at very reasonable prices. There is no advantage to UGL thyroid besides delivery time, however its not worth the risk. Best of both worlds is if your UGL carries pharma grade thyroid hormone.

 

[caps83]

Go off labs most importantly. Regards to Gh and T4 use- over time, the increase in T4 to T3 conversion from gh lowers tsh (bc T3 is elevated) and less T4 is produced- T3 can still be high enough not to kick in production of endogenous thyroid hormone but still lower than optimal. So if thyroid levels start to drop this may be corrected. Thyroid hormones are not necessary with gh use though. Rx T4 is cheaper, maintains steadier levels, harder to overtake, less cardiac risk, and will convert over to T3 as the body wants it to and not. Short term contest prep T3 can be good, long term for gh use or hypothyroid -> T4, T4/T3 combo, or dessicated thyroid gland

 

[Parabolic33]

I see that you completely do not understand the concept of using t4 - I will explain both cases a bit

scenario one - low t4 and high/normal t3 (typical situation after prolonged use of gh) if you see such blood results and you stay on it without supplementing with additional t3, you will lead to the fact that at some point your t3 will start to fall down and TSH will increase up, because the body will need more and more t4 for enhanced t3 conversion and your body will not be able to produce it itself, which in turn will lead to hypothyroidism

scenario two - you supplement t4 + t3 because you want your TSH to remain normal, i.e. you do not want to turn off natural production, but only to turn it up more - by giving only t3 without t4, you are 100% condemning yourself to turning off the work of your thyroid gland and TSH to practically zero - and we don't want that

Is the reason why using t4+t3 is not putting TSH low because t4 isn’t as suppressive to TSH ? And therefore some of your t3 activity in tissues is still coming from converted t4?

I’m using 140mcg t4, and my TSH has gone up and down over the last year, I’m now cutting for 8 weeks and my TSH is 0.202, the lowest it’s ever been. T4- 7.3 (4.5-12) Free T4 2.73 ( 0.82-1.77) Free T3- 3.2 (2.0-4.4).

With my Free t3 being middle of the range, I expected my TSH to not be so low. But this is also the first time I’ve checked anything besides TSH and T4.

Since im cutting and have never tested my free t3 before while on gear/thyroid drugs/bodybuilding , i’m wondering if I’d benefit from adding in 12.5mcg t3 maybe once or twice per day split up. Or is it that I actually have more thyroid activity than I think, because I have Supraphysiological free t4 that’s getting converted in different body tissues and isn’t contributing to the free t3 readings that I’m seeing in my blood?

And referencing the first paragraph, about that question about t4 not being as suppresvie to TSH, this makes me wonder why my TSH is so low if my ft3 is mid range. It makes me think that my Supraphysiological free t4 is somehow contributing to my TSH suppression. I’m not sure if it’s the free t4 itself suppressing TSH, or if it’s the resulting t3 produced in tissues from that t4 that’s suppressing TSH. But then if so, how is that t3 that’s produced in tissues from my Supraphysiological free t4 making a signal that’s getting Back to my hypothalamus/pituitary to provide suppression.

Thyroid is so confusing my bad. Feel free to set it straight if you know what’s going on here

 

[whacked]

Question for the Thyroid gurus.

Sooo…I swear my metabolism slowed down after being on 3iu’s GH for years.

Lost fat initially well and I could mash food and it didn’t really have an adverse effect on me.

I just tested my Free T3 and Free T4 and both are mid range. Heck, ditto with TSH and all of my Thyroid values.

I assume adding T4 would make no difference for me and not advised?

Flame away. Lol.

Ps. I hate T3. Makes me feel like trash even at 25mcg. I get flat and tired. Bizarre.

 

[bigzzz]

Adding 50mcg’s of t4 is never a bad idea when using gh.

 

[whacked]

Adding 50mcg’s of t4 is never a bad idea when using gh.

What if all of your Thyroid levels are already normal / in range though…. including Free T4 and free T3 while on GH?

Wouldn’t the body just essentially piss it out?

 

[Stewie]

What if all of your Thyroid levels are already normal / in range though…. including Free T4 and free T3 while on GH?

Wouldn’t the body just essentially piss it out?

No. Levothyroxine isn't like a water soluble vitamin.

It would be distributed then go through the process of catalyzation/deiodination then glucuronidation.

 

[whacked]

No. Levothyroxine isn't like a water soluble vitamin.

It would be distributed then go through the process of catalyzation/deiodination then glucuronidation.

Thanks you
Ps .. good to see ya Stewie!