What valid role does T4 have with HGH?

[Black Beard]

Question for the Thyroid gurus.

Sooo…I swear my metabolism slowed down after being on 3iu’s GH for years.

Lost fat initially well and I could mash food and it didn’t really have an adverse effect on me.

I just tested my Free T3 and Free T4 and both are mid range. Heck, ditto with TSH and all of my Thyroid values.

I assume adding T4 would make no difference for me and not advised?

Flame away. Lol.

Ps. I hate T3. Makes me feel like trash even at 25mcg. I get flat and tired. Bizarre.

What are your numbers? Yep, taking 25 mcg T3 only will actually lower your Free T4 levels and can make you feel worse. Many guys don't touch T3 as it often just makes you hungrier and flatter and lowers endurance.


Low doses of T4 will usually add to your numbers. So you could be 1.2 ng/dL and taking 25 mcg will bump you up to 1.4 ng/dL. Higher doses will suppress your endogenous production, like when you take testosterone and taking T3 will cause and even stronger suppression.


Some people feel benefit from bringing their Free T4 back into the true normal range when using HGH (@luki7788 ). Taking T4 means your Free T4 and Free T3 will increase when using HGH. HGH increase T4 to T3 conversion AKA Deiodination as @Stewie mentioned.


If you are borderline hypothyroid or sluggish thyroid, HGH can push your Free T4 into the hypothyroid range (Generally under 1.2 ng/dL for Free T4). Generally, you will feel best when both Free T4 and Free T3 are in true normal ranges. ( The bottom of the lab ranges actually represent hypothyroid numbers IE Free T4 under 1 ng/dL )

 

[Black Beard]

Is the reason why using t4+t3 is not putting TSH low because t4 isn’t as suppressive to TSH ? And therefore some of your t3 activity in tissues is still coming from converted t4?

I’m using 140mcg t4, and my TSH has gone up and down over the last year, I’m now cutting for 8 weeks and my TSH is 0.202, the lowest it’s ever been. T4- 7.3 (4.5-12) Free T4 2.73 ( 0.82-1.77) Free T3- 3.2 (2.0-4.4).

With my Free t3 being middle of the range, I expected my TSH to not be so low. But this is also the first time I’ve checked anything besides TSH and T4.

Since im cutting and have never tested my free t3 before while on gear/thyroid drugs/bodybuilding , i’m wondering if I’d benefit from adding in 12.5mcg t3 maybe once or twice per day split up. Or is it that I actually have more thyroid activity than I think, because I have Supraphysiological free t4 that’s getting converted in different body tissues and isn’t contributing to the free t3 readings that I’m seeing in my blood?

And referencing the first paragraph, about that question about t4 not being as suppresvie to TSH, this makes me wonder why my TSH is so low if my ft3 is mid range. It makes me think that my Supraphysiological free t4 is somehow contributing to my TSH suppression. I’m not sure if it’s the free t4 itself suppressing TSH, or if it’s the resulting t3 produced in tissues from that t4 that’s suppressing TSH. But then if so, how is that t3 that’s produced in tissues from my Supraphysiological free t4 making a signal that’s getting Back to my hypothalamus/pituitary to provide suppression.

Thyroid is so confusing my bad. Feel free to set it straight if you know what’s going on here

Your Free T4 is very hyperthyroid. Having a low TSH like that is expected with those numbers. T4 can suppress TSH independently of T3.


Are you consistently taking T4 on empty stomach in the morning and waiting 30-60 minutes before taking any supplements/food/coffee/tea/etc? Are you sure your Free T4 is 2.73 ng/dL on 140 mcg? Is this UGL or pharma grade T4? Also note that if you take your pill the morning of your blood work, your Free T4 can be 15-25% higher than if you skipped the pill.

 

[nothuman]

Your Free T4 is very hyperthyroid. Having a low TSH like that is expected with those numbers. T4 can suppress TSH independently of T3.


Are you consistently taking T4 on empty stomach in the morning and waiting 30-60 minutes before taking any supplements/food/coffee/tea/etc? Are you sure your Free T4 is 2.73 ng/dL on 140 mcg? Is this UGL or pharma grade T4? Also note that if you take your pill the morning of your blood work, your Free T4 can be 15-25% higher than if you skipped the pill.

I made this mistake once and it was a complete waste of paying for a FT4 lab test. Never again.

 

[skyblob]

I see that you completely do not understand the concept of using t4 - I will explain both cases a bit

scenario one - low t4 and high/normal t3 (typical situation after prolonged use of gh) if you see such blood results and you stay on it without supplementing with additional t3, you will lead to the fact that at some point your t3 will start to fall down and TSH will increase up, because the body will need more and more t4 for enhanced t3 conversion and your body will not be able to produce it itself, which in turn will lead to hypothyroidism

scenario two - you supplement t4 + t3 because you want your TSH to remain normal, i.e. you do not want to turn off natural production, but only to turn it up more - by giving only t3 without t4, you are 100% condemning yourself to turning off the work of your thyroid gland and TSH to practically zero - and we don't want that

Do you recommend t4 only or is it good to take a little bit of t3 with the t4?

Reason i ask is because I have pharma bitrion i think and its 12.5mcg t3 / 50mcg t4 tabs

Thanks !

 

[luki7788]

Do you recommend t4 only or is it good to take a little bit of t3 with the t4?

Reason i ask is because I have pharma bitrion i think and its 12.5mcg t3 / 50mcg t4 tabs

Thanks !

I have already written - what hormones you should add will be shown by blood tests - no hormones are added randomly

 

[skyblob]

I have already written - what hormones you should add will be shown by blood tests - no hormones are added randomly

Perfect thank you very much!

 

[dimethyl11]

What are your numbers? Yep, taking 25 mcg T3 only will actually lower your Free T4 levels and can make you feel worse. Many guys don't touch T3 as it often just makes you hungrier and flatter and lowers endurance.


Low doses of T4 will usually add to your numbers. So you could be 1.2 ng/dL and taking 25 mcg will bump you up to 1.4 ng/dL. Higher doses will suppress your endogenous production, like when you take testosterone and taking T3 will cause and even stronger suppression.


Some people feel benefit from bringing their Free T4 back into the true normal range when using HGH (@luki7788 ). Taking T4 means your Free T4 and Free T3 will increase when using HGH. HGH increase T4 to T3 conversion AKA Deiodination as @Stewie mentioned.


If you are borderline hypothyroid or sluggish thyroid, HGH can push your Free T4 into the hypothyroid range (Generally under 1.2 ng/dL for Free T4). Generally, you will feel best when both Free T4 and Free T3 are in true normal ranges. ( The bottom of the lab ranges actually represent hypothyroid numbers IE Free T4 under 1 ng/dL )

Great info @Black Beard thyroid optimization is not nearly as popular or talked about as AAS. Your posts are very appreciated

 

[Bobik]

Also note that if you take your pill the morning of your blood work, your Free T4 can be 15-25% higher than if you skipped the pill.

So is it better to skip the T4 dose before the blood test? Thanks

 

[Black Beard]

So is it better to skip the T4 dose before the blood test? Thanks

Yep, or at least keep in mind that there will be a difference

 

[Fa Seeshus]

So is it better to skip the T4 dose before the blood test? Thanks

In general don't do anything the day of your blood draw for anything. Ancillary drugs like exemestane will throw off testosterone readings, gh will throw off your fasting glucose, etc.

 

[Black Beard]

In general don't do anything the day of your blood draw for anything. Ancillary drugs like exemestane will throw off testosterone readings, gh will throw off your fasting glucose, etc.

I'll add to this; multivitamins and biotin can throw off thyroid tests as well.

 

[whacked]

What are your numbers? Yep, taking 25 mcg T3 only will actually lower your Free T4 levels and can make you feel worse. Many guys don't touch T3 as it often just makes you hungrier and flatter and lowers endurance.


Low doses of T4 will usually add to your numbers. So you could be 1.2 ng/dL and taking 25 mcg will bump you up to 1.4 ng/dL. Higher doses will suppress your endogenous production, like when you take testosterone and taking T3 will cause and even stronger suppression.


Some people feel benefit from bringing their Free T4 back into the true normal range when using HGH (@luki7788 ). Taking T4 means your Free T4 and Free T3 will increase when using HGH. HGH increase T4 to T3 conversion AKA Deiodination as @Stewie mentioned.


If you are borderline hypothyroid or sluggish thyroid, HGH can push your Free T4 into the hypothyroid range (Generally under 1.2 ng/dL for Free T4). Generally, you will feel best when both Free T4 and Free T3 are in true normal ranges. ( The bottom of the lab ranges actually represent hypothyroid numbers IE Free T4 under 1 ng/dL )

Thanks BB

My numbers are all right in the middle of the ranges which is great on paper but I swear my metabolism has slowed. I don’t get any of the easy dieting or fat burning or cheat abilities I used to.

Been on the Greys for years. So good stuff.

 

[Black Beard]

Thanks BB

My numbers are all right in the middle of the ranges which is great on paper but I swear my metabolism has slowed. I don’t get any of the easy dieting or fat burning or cheat abilities I used to.

Been on the Greys for years. So good stuff.

That's why i asked what your numbers are, i can let you know.

 

[juiceball44]

This is on 100mcg t4, 25mcg t3 and 5iu gh a day

Should I lower or stop taking t3 and increase t4?

 

[Ashop]

I see that you completely do not understand the concept of using t4 - I will explain both cases a bit

scenario one - low t4 and high/normal t3 (typical situation after prolonged use of gh) if you see such blood results and you stay on it without supplementing with additional t3, you will lead to the fact that at some point your t3 will start to fall down and TSH will increase up, because the body will need more and more t4 for enhanced t3 conversion and your body will not be able to produce it itself, which in turn will lead to hypothyroidism

scenario two - you supplement t4 + t3 because you want your TSH to remain normal, i.e. you do not want to turn off natural production, but only to turn it up more - by giving only t3 without t4, you are 100% condemning yourself to turning off the work of your thyroid gland and TSH to practically zero - and we don't want that

Very good explanations here!

 

[fisther69]

Look into T4’s role with HCG..wish I knew about that a long time ago

 

[aHarness]

View attachment 194440

This is on 100mcg t4, 25mcg t3 and 5iu gh a day

Should I lower or stop taking t3 and increase t4?

Did you take the t3 recently before the bloodwork all in one dose?

 

[juiceball44]

Did you take the t3 recently before the bloodwork all in one dose?

The only thing I took the day of the test was 10iu gh to do a serum test. T3 and t4 last dose were over 24 hours the day before

 

[bigzzz]

Look into T4’s role with HCG..wish I knew about that a long time ago

What is it?

 

[Black Beard]

View attachment 194440

This is on 100mcg t4, 25mcg t3 and 5iu gh a day

Should I lower or stop taking t3 and increase t4?

Your HGH is converting a lot of the T4 into T3 and then you are taking additional T3 at supraphysiological dosage. Your T3 levels after you take the T3 is going to be in the hyperthyroid range, but the short half life means its much much lower 24 hours later.


Are you flatter? Any hyper symptoms like feeling hot easily? lower stamina?