When people say strength doesnt matter?

[KillerStack]

All the pros seem to say weights don't matter in the least. Then you seem them train and they are using such heavy weight they can't even do one strict repetition, swinging and heaving and bouncing. One good example is Branch Warren saying in one of his MD videos how he now trains very strict and uses peak contraction. What peak contraction?

Conflicting messages.

 

[bufflives]

great responses! I just wanted to start an interesting topic for discussion. I totally agree that in order to get bigger muscles you have to increase your training poundages for the most part.

But what if say for instance you are use to doing legs in the 8-10 rep range and you lower your weights and perform your reps in the 20-25 rep range. WIll you grow from this? I was forced to start doing higher reps for legs after a torn patellar tendon and have had awesome results doing 20 reps!


I think the mind muscle connection is very important as well. I can pick up say the 110s and do 10 very good reps on db bench, without thinking much about it or I can pick up the 90s and do 10 perfect reps with a slow constant tension motion really squeezing and really put my mind and muscle into it. Which is better for growing muscle purposes?

Your 20-25 squat rep range goes along with a study that came out a few years back showing that 20 plus squat reps boost testosterone by a greater percentage. Same went for legpress. Not saying i would do that range all the time, but why not occasionally?

 

[bufflives]

All the pros seem to say weights don't matter in the least. Then you seem them train and they are using such heavy weight they can't even do one strict repetition, swinging and heaving and bouncing. One good example is Branch Warren saying in one of his MD videos how he now trains very strict and uses peak contraction. What peak contraction?

Conflicting messages.

Agreed. They do seem to send damn conflicting advice. What i wouldn't give to workout with a pro from time to time.

 

[EasyEJL]

I have heard alot of people, pros also, say that strength doesnt matter and its all about form. I just dont see how you can make a muscle alot bigger without increasing the weight you use to work the muscle. I have just heard it ALOT that strength doesnt matter and that bodybuilding is not about strength, that is what powerlifting is for!

What you are missing is that a lot of the strength is individual. So if you have 17" bis curling 60lbs sure you need to raise the weight over time to continue to grow. But it doesn't mean you need to be curling 110lb dbs to reach 20 inches, you individually may grow well going up only slightly in weight over the time span. At the same time you'll find guys with 16" arms curling 70s.

So sure, the continual upwards progression of the weight you are moving matters, but what that number is in pounds isn't really important.

 

[Magnum]

Strength increase is a sign of progression and therefor a sign of increased LBM.

No not necessarily. Many powerlifter get a lot stronger without gaining muscle. I seen many pros train and some can only bench roughly 300 pounds for reps for example and some joe blow will some along and out bench him by 100 pounds yet be much smaller muscle wise.

There are some pros who come to mind that have gone thru a size change yet you don't see them using more weight. Milos swears that he has put up to 40 pounds on a person in a few short weeks using insulin while in fact they actually trained lighter doing many giant sets using extremely light weights.

 

[KillerStack]

There are some pros who come to mind that have gone thru a size change yet you don't see them using more weight. Milos swears that he has put up to 40 pounds on a person in a few short weeks using insulin while in fact they actually trained lighter doing many giant sets using extremely light weights.

Yes Milos claims load doesn't matter AT ALL. But how much was he hack squatting when he tore his quads? Yes another example of a pro not taking his own advice.

But you're right, and Milos is right, one can gain LBM without increasing absolute loads. For example through drugs.

 

[muscle_n_blood]

that just doesen't apply to everone. i can do a very heavy (for me) set of 8 on the leg press but when i train light weight for 5 sets of 30 my legs grow quite well and are bigger than when i go heavier for low reps......but that's me.

True enough, I guess nothing applies to everyone; everyone's genetics, muscle composition, etc is different... but if you do 5 sets of 30 with 6 plates per side (just grabbing a random number) you may grow... bunch the sets closer together and increase the intensity and they grow some more... but I think that eventually you would have to add another plate or two lest you plateau out on size, no? I know you don't have to lift massive weight all the time to have muscle mass, but here's an example of what I mean:
An old friend of mine, a multiple time Mr Tennessee, always said about legs: "If you can do 20 reps with 315 you'll have all the size you'll ever need."
He did that, and had great wheels... but in order for him to gain the ability to do 20 deep reps with 315, he had to do fewer reps with a good bit more weight. I've seen him use 495 from time to time. I know we don't need to do maxes for bodybuilding, but I do believe that once in a while ya gotta load up some heavy ass weight, grab it, and growl..

 

[Magnum]

Yes Milos claims load doesn't matter AT ALL. But how much was he hack squatting when he tore his quads? Yes another example of a pro not taking his own advice.

But you're right, and Milos is right, one can gain LBM without increasing absolute loads. For example through drugs.

Yeah I think that a lot of that was ego and when he was forced to train lighter he realized what he always had, that load means little. I have always believed that after building a basic strength foundation, weight meant very little and you had to find a way to make training more intense thru other avenues and unfortunately also by using higher doses of drugs.

 

[Ness]

No not necessarily. Many powerlifter get a lot stronger without gaining muscle. I seen many pros train and some can only bench roughly 300 pounds for reps for example and some joe blow will some along and out bench him by 100 pounds yet be much smaller muscle wise.

There are some pros who come to mind that have gone thru a size change yet you don't see them using more weight. Milos swears that he has put up to 40 pounds on a person in a few short weeks using insulin while in fact they actually trained lighter doing many giant sets using extremely light weights.

Sure, but you missed the part where I used the phrase "a sign" in terms of progression and hypertrophy. Also, so what if a smaller guy benches more than a bigger guy? I can out lift just about anyone in my gym although Im not the biggest. You took me out of context, Im talking about individual criterion...not generalizations. Can you talk in generalizations when it comes to bodybuilding? I dont think so. Anyway, I understand what youre saying.

 

[Magnum]

Sure, but you missed the part where I used the phrase "a sign" in terms of progression and hypertrophy. Also, so what if a smaller guy benches more than a bigger guy? I can out lift just about anyone in my gym although Im not the biggest. You took me out of context, Im talking about individual criterion...not generalizations. Can you talk in generalizations when it comes to bodybuilding? I dont think so. Anyway, I understand what youre saying.

Sorry,bout that. My fault for watching TV and typing at the same time. but overall and I've seen many pros train they are not that strong. Of course some guys out there today are so jacked up on various drugs that they can't help but be extremely strong.

 

[Ness]

Sorry,bout that. My fault for watching TV and typing at the same time. but overall and I've seen many pros train they are not that strong. Of course some guys out there today are so jacked up on various drugs that they can't help but be extremely strong.

Youre so right, its no joke. I am amazed just by my response to a tiny addition in my supplementation. I have some of those prohormones that Phil used to sell before they got banned (mdrol). Id put stupid poundages up...Id get too scared and stop taking the stuff. Now, Ill play around with it and use it for 10-14 days tops. Stuff out today is crazy, be safe.

 

[Tom]

True enough, I guess nothing applies to everyone; everyone's genetics, muscle composition, etc is different... but if you do 5 sets of 30 with 6 plates per side (just grabbing a random number) you may grow... bunch the sets closer together and increase the intensity and they grow some more... but I think that eventually you would have to add another plate or two lest you plateau out on size, no? I know you don't have to lift massive weight all the time to have muscle mass, but here's an example of what I mean:
An old friend of mine, a multiple time Mr Tennessee, always said about legs: "If you can do 20 reps with 315 you'll have all the size you'll ever need."
He did that, and had great wheels... but in order for him to gain the ability to do 20 deep reps with 315, he had to do fewer reps with a good bit more weight. I've seen him use 495 from time to time. I know we don't need to do maxes for bodybuilding, but I do believe that once in a while ya gotta load up some heavy ass weight, grab it, and growl..

you have a very good point in training heavier for lower reps to make that light weight feel even lighter and susequently easier to get the high reps. i noticed that one guy can increase over time up to 315 for 20 and it's all he can do to finish the set. the second guy who routinely trains 200 lbs more than that has a much easier time with the 315 set. funny thing is usually both will have very good leg development.

 

[Magnum]

Youre so right, its no joke. I am amazed just by my response to a tiny addition in my supplementation. I have some of those prohormones that Phil used to sell before they got banned (mdrol). Id put stupid poundages up...Id get too scared and stop taking the stuff. Now, Ill play around with it and use it for 10-14 days tops. Stuff out today is crazy, be safe.

I remember when M1T came out years ago. I took 20 mgs daily and in a week I was stacking all my machines. My BP went crazy high too. Went all the way down to 5 mgs and still could not take it. Some of these old steroids can put on 15 pounds of pure muscle in a few weeks, but the sides are just way too much.

 

[oldfella]

This debate will have a similar outcome to the debate about the "TRUTH". What works for BB#1 might be heavy assed weights for as many as you can get. What might work for BB# 2 might be medium to light weights and a boatload of reps and sets. Each individual will respond differently to the loads used and the amount of time training. I do agree though that you can get stronger without getting a lot bigger. But this still makes for interesting conversation. But just keep an open mind about what works for you and what works for me!!

In the past I did train with a top level pro in his day. We trained five days a week and worked through what many here would call incredibly high volume and as heavy as you could get for 5 gut busting reps. My friend was big 6'2" and weighed 145kg (319lbs) and had single digit BF most of the year round. He was animal strong and thick as hell. 22" arms, cannonballs for delts and a chest I could not get both arms around. So this is what built his physique. Did it work for me....well It did and it didn't. I did not get as big as he was, but I did get bigger than I was. He had good genetics and did moderate doses. Until contest time. Then the doses went right through the roof. In the order of 4gm total a week. SO did his poundage and volume. So did his physique. SO this is what worked FOR HIM. I tried but could not replicate his size or strength. I used the same moderate doses (high for me) as he did BTW and trained as heavy as I could, just trying to keep up with him. I got big and thick but nowhere near my friend. Thanks Big Bert for all the years and advice. And all the ass tearing workouts and fun along the way. I miss you man!!

 

[MightyJohn]

I believe muscle confusion has more to due with gaining size then overall muscle strength

 

[Magnum]

This debate will have a similar outcome to the debate about the "TRUTH". What works for BB#1 might be heavy assed weights for as many as you can get. What might work for BB# 2 might be medium to light weights and a boatload of reps and sets. Each individual will respond differently to the loads used and the amount of time training. I do agree though that you can get stronger without getting a lot bigger. But this still makes for interesting conversation. But just keep an open mind about what works for you and what works for me!!

In the past I did train with a top level pro in his day. We trained five days a week and worked through what many here would call incredibly high volume and as heavy as you could get for 5 gut busting reps. My friend was big 6'2" and weighed 145kg (319lbs) and had single digit BF most of the year round. He was animal strong and thick as hell. 22" arms, cannonballs for delts and a chest I could not get both arms around. So this is what built his physique. Did it work for me....well It did and it didn't. I did not get as big as he was, but I did get bigger than I was. He had good genetics and did moderate doses. Until contest time. Then the doses went right through the roof. In the order of 4gm total a week. SO did his poundage and volume. So did his physique. SO this is what worked FOR HIM. I tried but could not replicate his size or strength. I used the same moderate doses (high for me) as he did BTW and trained as heavy as I could, just trying to keep up with him. I got big and thick but nowhere near my friend. Thanks Big Bert for all the years and advice. And all the ass tearing workouts and fun along the way. I miss you man!!

So when he sent his dosages thru the roof he got much bigger and stronger and increased his workload? Gee what a surprise. That's one thing that you didn't do that "may" have made a difference.

 

[oldfella]

So when he sent his dosages thru the roof he got much bigger and stronger and increased his workload? Gee what a surprise. That's one thing that you didn't do that "may" have made a difference.

Oh I have no doubt about that at all. But even when he was cruising and I was blasting away I could not match it. My growth was not proportional to the workload or dose like his was. I accept that 100% that it may have made a difference. At the time I did not have the finances to find out and I was chicken shit to push that much into me. No probs admitting this. Oh and no surprises to me about my friend. He was a great friend, mentor and big.

 

[Magnum]

Oh I have no doubt about that at all. But even when he was cruising and I was blasting away I could not match it. My growth was not proportional to the workload or dose like his was. I accept that 100% that it may have made a difference. At the time I did not have the finances to find out and I was chicken shit to push that much into me. No probs admitting this. Oh and no surprises to me about my friend. He was a great friend, mentor and big.

Don't blame you at all for being chicken shit I would never have the balls (no pun intended) to take it to 4 grams. But remember that in reality what you are sayin is that he took way more drugs than you and was way bigger. When he was "cruising" he had already built way more muscle than you ever had and his blood levels were most likely still way higher than yours. Also, plenty of guys gain size while dieting for a show and the fact that he was already lean, he was in a perfect state to keep gaining muscle.

 

[oldfella]

Don't blame you at all for being chicken shit I would never have the balls (no pun intended) to take it to 4 grams. But remember that in reality what you are sayin is that he took way more drugs than you and was way bigger. When he was "cruising" he had already built way more muscle than you ever had and his blood levels were most likely still way higher than yours. Also, plent of guys gain size while dieting for a show and the fact that he was already lean, he was in a perfect state to keep gaining muscle.

Agreed. This man was like a machine. He ate like a machine and trained like one. It was what he taught me about diet and training for shows that made me a beleiver that you can grow into your contest without sacrificing muscle. He never worried about weight, only how he looked as he dieted, I also learned this from him. He always told me to trust your friends and the mirror, the scale lies!! LOL.

 

[Michaelthomasj]

i think you are taking the saying a little too literal....they dont mean strength doesnt matter 100percent..just that focus should be on form and feeling the weight not doing whatever you can to move more and more weight to the degree that you are sacrificing form and risk of injury etc...focusing on form and feeling a pump/burn and getting a real good workout

x2! Def taking it too literally. Everyone likes to be strong, but bodybuilding isnt about poundage..its about bringing your best package to the stage. If the guy with the flat chest takes last...whats he going to say,,hey i bench 800 pounds though!