Why does using an anti e reduce gains?

[Qwert]

I keep reading that anti e's severly limit gains? Now, I certainly do not gain as much 'weight' as I used to now, since I use femera & aromasin on cycles. But, I do not get nearly as watery or carry as much fat during a cycle as well. Do people see anti e's as limiting gains, since they don't gain as much over all weight on a cycle? I really don't care about water or fat gains./ Just muscle.

 

[Mr_Magoo]

i believe estrogen does play some role in glycogen snthesis (how much i am not familiar with) in muscles and some can slightly lower IGF-1 levels but i believe that most people percieve water weight as mass

 

[terryd5150]

Yes...

i believe estrogen does play some role in glycogen snthesis (how much i am not familiar with) in muscles and some can slightly lower IGF-1 levels but i believe that most people percieve water weight as mass

This is my theory exactly!


If anyone has any studies or documentation that can show that SERMs or AIs will inhibit actual muscle gains during a cycle please post any info you have.

Don't tell me "I wasn't as big" or "I didn't weigh as much", like Mr. Magoo said you won't be retaing water/bloating as badly so of course you won't be as big or weigh as much. I'm more interested in how they effect the actual growth of muscle cells.

If SERMs/AIs do inhibit muscle growth I'd love to know the mechanisms/pathways by which they do (seriously, this topic is VERY interesting, anyone with any info please post up).

 

[The_Beast]

1. Nolvadex reduces IGF-1 production, which diminish the hypertrophic response. This IGF lowering effect is in fact one of the reasons for the use of tamoxifen to help with breast cancer. ER-negative breast cancer cells are responsive to IGF-1 (IGF-1 makes them grow), the fact that tamoxifen lowers circulating IGF-1 is the reason for its use as an anti-cancer medicine (Pollack et al. 1990)

2. Nolvadex (and other anti-E/anti-A) reduces bloating... while bloating isn't muscle mass, it can contribute to stimulating growth via 2 pathways: a) increasing intramuscular pressure (also called cell volumization) has been shown to increase protein synthesis (Stoll et al. 1992) and decrease muscle breakdown (Hallbrucker et al. 1990, Hallbrucker et al. 1991, vom Dahl et al. 1991, Häussinger et al. 1990, vom Dahl et al. 1995), whereas a ''flat'' muscle leads to a catabolic state ... to quote Haussinger et al (1996) ''cell shrinkage inhibits, whereas cell swelling stimulates, protein synthesis ''.

b) ''Bloating'' improves joint stability and force levers which allows you to lift more weight either by desentisizing the protective mechanisms of the muscle (the more stable joint makes the CNS ''believes'' that it's safe to produce more force) or by improved leverage. This is why several powerlifters actually ''bloat'' on purpose prior to a contest (after they weight in). The capacity to lift more weight = more potential growth stimulation.

3. Estrogen is needed, to some extent, for optimal muscle growth.

 

[Moen]

I'm quite sure people mistake bloat for more mass yes

I'm also not stronger when I'm bloated then when I am not so I highly doubt that one as well

 

[Noir]

1. Nolvadex reduces IGF-1 production, which diminish the hypertrophic response. This IGF lowering effect is in fact one of the reasons for the use of tamoxifen to help with breast cancer. ER-negative breast cancer cells are responsive to IGF-1 (IGF-1 makes them grow), the fact that tamoxifen lowers circulating IGF-1 is the reason for its use as an anti-cancer medicine (Pollack et al. 1990)

2. Nolvadex (and other anti-E/anti-A) reduces bloating... while bloating isn't muscle mass, it can contribute to stimulating growth via 2 pathways: a) increasing intramuscular pressure (also called cell volumization) has been shown to increase protein synthesis (Stoll et al. 1992) and decrease muscle breakdown (Hallbrucker et al. 1990, Hallbrucker et al. 1991, vom Dahl et al. 1991, Häussinger et al. 1990, vom Dahl et al. 1995), whereas a ''flat'' muscle leads to a catabolic state ... to quote Haussinger et al (1996) ''cell shrinkage inhibits, whereas cell swelling stimulates, protein synthesis ''.

b) ''Bloating'' improves joint stability and force levers which allows you to lift more weight either by desentisizing the protective mechanisms of the muscle (the more stable joint makes the CNS ''believes'' that it's safe to produce more force) or by improved leverage. This is why several powerlifters actually ''bloat'' on purpose prior to a contest (after they weight in). The capacity to lift more weight = more potential growth stimulation.

3. Estrogen is needed, to some extent, for optimal muscle growth.

nice info

 

[Narus63]

Lets hear from the pros here on PM. Phil H. Big A and DC???
You guys who have hit the peak of mass gains...was anti E's that important or did they hinder gains?

 

[KillerStack]

If anyone has any studies or documentation that can show that SERMs or AIs will inhibit actual muscle gains during a cycle please post any info you have.

Don't know of any studies with both steroids and anti-estrogens but the studies with AIs show they do not cause an increase in LBM despite a massive increase in testosterone levels. Even Gaspari's study on their Novedex XT showed this; no increase in LBM. The authors of the study speculate it could be due to the 50% drop in growth hormone. The study is on Gaspari's site if anyone wants to read it.

 

[HITHARD]

Good info..

But keep in mind; bloat caused by the build up of estrogen may lead to kidney damage, prostate enlargement, elevated LDL and drecreased HDL , acne, high blood pressure (leading back to kidney damage) and may also lead to depression due to the loss of size (which is due to bloating).

 

[speedbacker]

Bump for dc, phil, advanced guys, etc.....

 

[FutureFreak]

Blunting estrogen would appear to lessen hypertrophy, due to a few reasons:
Lowering IGF-1 of course, which causes cells to magnify and proliferate.
Estrogen causes insulin sensitivity, which helps glycogen & protein synthesis.
Also, I believe estrogen does something favorable to the androgen receptor.

 

[terryd5150]

Great post Beast...

3. Estrogen is needed, to some extent, for optimal muscle growth.

But I have an issue with number 3. A-dex isn't going to completely eliminate estrogen from your body so you will still have some.

BUT


How much do you really need, after all you didn't have much to start with (or else you would be a woman).

I guess I'm just looking for an "omptimum" level, or something similar.

 

[The_Beast]

But I have an issue with number 3. A-dex isn't going to completely eliminate estrogen from your body so you will still have some.

BUT


How much do you really need, after all you didn't have much to start with (or else you would be a woman).

I guess I'm just looking for an "omptimum" level, or something similar.

Sadly this is not really something has been, or ever will be, researched. A-Dex and letro can actually lower estrogen TOO much has it can stop aromatization by close to 95%. Nolvadex is actually less of an issue as it doesn't actually prevent estrogen from being formed, but rather block its action on some specific tissues.

When estrogen is too low = less IGF-1 production, decreased glycogen storage, decrease cell volumization ... all of which directly or indirectly reduces muscle-building... however I don't really think that we can say with certainty that you need X ng/dl of estrogen to build muscle optimally.