Wonderful Insulin Scare Today; Please Advise

[emeric delczeg]

Well this turned into an interesting thread.


After doing much research it seems the combination of a few added supplements greatly increased my insulin sensitivity and caused the problem for me.

As of now I am taking a break from insulin, and if I do it again it will be at a much lesser dose.



And just to throw this out there "ritche" or w/e ... You are seriously being ignorant by not listening to some of the advice in this thread, you sure seem to know it all; but you obviously fail to realize that if you take 25iu of insulin before your workout and for some reason your insulin sensitivity has increased because of a small change that you didn't think about (as mine did) ... You will NOT be able to get enough carbs down your throat to save you, I promise you. Take it for what its worth...

Your body works differently to the body of sedentary person, exercise increases chromium loss so take chromium before training, it will boost you own insulin efficiency.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I'm not sure, because if it is above 100 after 6 hours of eating something, I take enough insulin to bring it under 100.

That is to long, you need to change your diet or you will become type 2 dietetic.

 

[maldorf]

Your body works differently to the body of sedentary person, exercise increases chromium loss so take chromium before training, it will boost you own insulin efficiency.

Chromium picolinate? I remember when that was a huge fad back in the mid to late 80s. I always took it but stopped after a few years. So you think it really is beneficial? The stuff is cheap, so thats good.

 

[testocules]

That is to long, you need to change your diet or you will become type 2 dietetic.

Yes, you are right. When I eat clean carbs this does not happen. I only have problems with blood sugar on my cheat meals.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Yes, you are right. When I eat clean carbs this does not happen. I only have problems with blood sugar on my cheat meals.

Cheat meals have no health benefits, take it out.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Chromium picolinate? I remember when that was a huge fad back in the mid to late 80s. I always took it but stopped after a few years. So you think it really is beneficial? The stuff is cheap, so thats good.

Yes, in one representative study, urinary loss of chromium almost doubled on training days compered with non training day. Athletes requiter twice as much than non athletes to maintain efficient insulin metabolism.

 

[maldorf]

Yes, in one representative study, urinary loss of chromium almost doubled on training days compered with non training day. Athletes requiter twice as much than non athletes to maintain efficient insulin metabolism.

ok, and chromium picolinate is the best form? I remember that Weider came out with another form, maybe polynicotinate?

 

[maldorf]

This is saying that chromium polynicotinate is better than picolinate. Thoughts?
Chromium Polynicotinate

 

[KillerStack]

Why? Do you think more is better? It's not.

I know you basically never elaborate on drug use, which is a shame. But I will try asking anyway. What is the purpose for insulin in bodybuilding, what does it do and what is "too much"? Do you agree with Emeric that the limit for benefits is 3iu?

No need to take insulin pre work out.

Yes. OK, I will not get in this insulin debate, I will tell you guys this, in 2000 a Bay are laboratory conducted experimental research on bodybuilders and track and field athletes (man and women)on insulin, I will make it short, the recovery on 10 IU where not better than on 3 IUs with the male athletes and 2 IUs on the women athletes.

Emeric, wasn't Milos connected to BALCO as some type of advisor? As you know, the basic standard Milos protocol is 20iu before workouts. If training twice daily that is 40iu/day. Sometimes a third 20iu dosage is added.
Do you really feel that 3iu will help muscle growth just as well?
I spoke to someone who trained with Milos and he thought some of the guys there did more than this 40-60iu too. If the benefits peaked at 3iu according to BALCO "research", it certainly didn't affect Milos' protocols.

As far as preworkout dosing, the idea is to take advantage of the increased blood flow, and increase it further with the insulin (theoretically getting more aminos/carbs into the worked muscle). Do you think this is useless?

I believe the 3iu dosing for track and field athletes, but they use it for different purposes, and who knows if it really did anything anyway. They don't want to increase muscle/weight unlike bodybuilders. I read some write-up about Russian athletes and they used even less, something like 1 paltry iu a couple of times a week.

 

[KillerStack]

This is saying that chromium polynicotinate is better than picolinate. Thoughts?
Chromium Polynicotinate

I don't know which is better but I remember how Twinlab put Chromium Picolinate in ALL their products basically. Michael Colgan thought it was some crazy anabolic compound and he had some connection to Twinlab I believe.

I use Jarrow's Chromium GTF:

GTF Chromium is a complex known as Glucose Tolerance Factor and is made by fermenting nutritional yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) with chromium.

I does seem to reduce my crazy sweet-tooth somewhat.

Another "insulin related" compound thought toxic by many "experts" is Vanadyl Sulphate.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Some proteins/amino acids have great effects on raising insulin when digested, without effecting blood sugar. Only a small amount of insulin is needed to shuttle blod glucose into the cells, so raising insulin even higher seems to be a moot point. On top of that, intra and post workout glucose uptake is non-insulin dependant for the first hour or so afterward.

 

[KillerStack]

Some proteins/amino acids have great effects on raising insulin when digested, without effecting blood sugar. Only a small amount of insulin is needed to shuttle blod glucose into the cells, so raising insulin even higher seems to be a moot point. On top of that, intra and post workout glucose uptake is non-insulin dependant for the first hour or so afterward.

I know only basal level of insulin are needed to maximize protein synthesis. But we probably don't know all of the mechanisms involved, especially when stacked with other drugs.

I mean research says GH does not build any skeletal muscle, basically zero. But things change when stacked with other drugs.

Then we have the liars like Palumbo who says you only "need" 2iu of insulin at the most... yet tells some client to use 14iu several times a day. And I can pretty much guarantee his pro bb clients use more than 2iu of GH, which he claims, online, to be all you'll ever need.

And why bother with 3iu insulin anyway. Eat half a banana or something and you release more than that. I remember some research which showed a snickers bar increased insulin more than a 10iu shot of insulin.

 

[emeric delczeg]

This is saying that chromium polynicotinate is better than picolinate. Thoughts?
Chromium Polynicotinate

Both are claimed to be highly biologically active. Far as I know is only one published study in a reputable scientific journal showing reduction of cholesterol in some subject. It was published in abstract, so there is no way to check the validity of the method used. Lat me know if you find a new study on polynicotinate.

 

[TrenBrah]

Cheat meals have no health benefits, take it out.

Yes they do.

Mental health.

 

[ritchie]

Well this turned into an interesting thread.


After doing much research it seems the combination of a few added supplements greatly increased my insulin sensitivity and caused the problem for me.

As of now I am taking a break from insulin, and if I do it again it will be at a much lesser dose.



And just to throw this out there "ritche" or w/e ... You are seriously being ignorant by not listening to some of the advice in this thread, you sure seem to know it all; but you obviously fail to realize that if you take 25iu of insulin before your workout and for some reason your insulin sensitivity has increased because of a small change that you didn't think about (as mine did) ... You will NOT be able to get enough carbs down your throat to save you, I promise you. Take it for what its worth...

not worth much as I got this down pat. So keep up the bs 3iu's of slin and just be happy with it why don't ya?

I never asked for advice here, and don't need it. Thanks.

 

[Kaladryn]

I know you basically never elaborate on drug use, which is a shame. But I will try asking anyway. What is the purpose for insulin in bodybuilding, what does it do and what is "too much"? Do you agree with Emeric that the limit for benefits is 3iu?





Emeric, wasn't Milos connected to BALCO as some type of advisor? As you know, the basic standard Milos protocol is 20iu before workouts. If training twice daily that is 40iu/day. Sometimes a third 20iu dosage is added.
Do you really feel that 3iu will help muscle growth just as well?
I spoke to someone who trained with Milos and he thought some of the guys there did more than this 40-60iu too. If the benefits peaked at 3iu according to BALCO "research", it certainly didn't affect Milos' protocols.

As far as preworkout dosing, the idea is to take advantage of the increased blood flow, and increase it further with the insulin (theoretically getting more aminos/carbs into the worked muscle). Do you think this is useless?

I believe the 3iu dosing for track and field athletes, but they use it for different purposes, and who knows if it really did anything anyway. They don't want to increase muscle/weight unlike bodybuilders. I read some write-up about Russian athletes and they used even less, something like 1 paltry iu a couple of times a week.

I'll try to explain my feelings on slin use and perhaps it will shed some light on why lower doses may be optimal.

Lets think of slin as a drug that you build up a tolerance to very quickly (insulin resistance). But in this case, your body also produces the drug. The drug is also anabolic to a degree. We want maximum anabolism from this drug, but at the same time, we want anabolism from this drug ALL THE TIME also. This is the problem.

Even eating simple sugars frequently enough can create enough natural slin to ruin this tolerance. So what we are looking for is an increase in anabolism on top of what we are already getting from out bodies, all the while creating the least possible amount of insulin resistance.

If your insulin resistance is too high, your own natural slin won't be working for you at all, you will have to rely on very high doses of slin at certain times, but even then it won't be 24/7. Could you still get good results from 10iu several times a day? Sure you could. But I would argue that you could get BETTER results from much less spread out in smaller amounts, IF you had lower insulin resistance.

Creating low insulin resistance is hard work, it takes a lot of time, clean eating, and meticulous meal preparation. After a show, with all that cardio, low GI carbs, and low glycemic load, my insulin resistance is super low. My simple sugar intraworkout drink can make me hypo post workout if I don't eat soon enough in this state! The last thing I want to do is ruin this hypersensitive state with a bunch of extra slin.

If I do use slin, I want JUST ENOUGH to give me a bit more anabolism (or glycogen storage) without creating insulin resistance. Now I'm getting the extra boost from the slin, PLUS the 24/7 boost from my low insulin resistance. Over weeks and months, my total increase in anabolism is going to be GREATER than someone who blasts a lot of slin, increases their insulin resistance, and gets less effect from the slin and less effect from their natty slin 24/7.

Could I be wrong? Sure. Blasting 20iu PWO might cause slightly more positive effect even though you insulin resistance goes through the roof. You can walk around at 150 blood sugar the rest of the time and have type II diabetes that will probably go away if you stop someday. You might even put on 5 ounces more muscle than me along with several pounds of fat over a few months. In the long run, I bet my approach leads to a better physique and a lower chance of diabetic coma.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I know you basically never elaborate on drug use, which is a shame. But I will try asking anyway. What is the purpose for insulin in bodybuilding, what does it do and what is "too much"? Do you agree with Emeric that the limit for benefits is 3iu?





Emeric, wasn't Milos connected to BALCO as some type of advisor? As you know, the basic standard Milos protocol is 20iu before workouts. If training twice daily that is 40iu/day. Sometimes a third 20iu dosage is added.
Do you really feel that 3iu will help muscle growth just as well?
I spoke to someone who trained with Milos and he thought some of the guys there did more than this 40-60iu too. If the benefits peaked at 3iu according to BALCO "research", it certainly didn't affect Milos' protocols.

As far as preworkout dosing, the idea is to take advantage of the increased blood flow, and increase it further with the insulin (theoretically getting more aminos/carbs into the worked muscle). Do you think this is useless?

I believe the 3iu dosing for track and field athletes, but they use it for different purposes, and who knows if it really did anything anyway. They don't want to increase muscle/weight unlike bodybuilders. I read some write-up about Russian athletes and they used even less, something like 1 paltry iu a couple of times a week.

Yes, Milos was the strength trainer for the track and field athletes. The 3IUs was not Milos`s protocol.
I can`t make any more comments on Balco (for many reasons).

Regarding the Russian athletes you are correct. Back in 1992 a pro bbr from France under a Dr.supervision showed me his insulin protocol and it was 1IUs after upper body training and 2IUs after lag trainig.

Taking aminos before and during training is beneficial, your own insulin will facilitates entry of these amino acid into muscle cells. Your body can make insulin instantly. I am not a supporter of insulin use for non diabetes. If I would I would use it only after training.

 

[KillerStack]

I'll try to explain my feelings on slin use and perhaps it will shed some light on why lower doses may be optimal.

Lets think of slin as a drug that you build up a tolerance to very quickly (insulin resistance). But in this case, your body also produces the drug. The drug is also anabolic to a degree. We want maximum anabolism from this drug, but at the same time, we want anabolism from this drug ALL THE TIME also. This is the problem.

Even eating simple sugars frequently enough can create enough natural slin to ruin this tolerance. So what we are looking for is an increase in anabolism on top of what we are already getting from out bodies, all the while creating the least possible amount of insulin resistance.

If your insulin resistance is too high, your own natural slin won't be working for you at all, you will have to rely on very high doses of slin at certain times, but even then it won't be 24/7. Could you still get good results from 10iu several times a day? Sure you could. But I would argue that you could get BETTER results from much less spread out in smaller amounts, IF you had lower insulin resistance.

Creating low insulin resistance is hard work, it takes a lot of time, clean eating, and meticulous meal preparation. After a show, with all that cardio, low GI carbs, and low glycemic load, my insulin resistance is super low. My simple sugar intraworkout drink can make me hypo post workout if I don't eat soon enough in this state! The last thing I want to do is ruin this hypersensitive state with a bunch of extra slin.

If I do use slin, I want JUST ENOUGH to give me a bit more anabolism (or glycogen storage) without creating insulin resistance. Now I'm getting the extra boost from the slin, PLUS the 24/7 boost from my low insulin resistance. Over weeks and months, my total increase in anabolism is going to be GREATER than someone who blasts a lot of slin, increases their insulin resistance, and gets less effect from the slin and less effect from their natty slin 24/7.

Could I be wrong? Sure. Blasting 20iu PWO might cause slightly more positive effect even though you insulin resistance goes through the roof. You can walk around at 150 blood sugar the rest of the time and have type II diabetes that will probably go away if you stop someday. You might even put on 5 ounces more muscle than me along with several pounds of fat over a few months. In the long run, I bet my approach leads to a better physique and a lower chance of diabetic coma.

I certainly agree that you want to be insulin sensitive.

However, I have some thoughts on some of what you say. I don't know if say 20iu of insulin post workout is that much actually; from my understanding it's still well below supraphysiological levels. If diabetics ate huge postworkout meal(s) like many bodybuilders do, a hundred or two grams of quick digesting carbs with maybe a hundred grams of protein spread out over 2 hours or whatever, many of them would probably have to shoot more than that. If doing Humalog it's almost gone in 2 hours anyway, so I'm not sure about this "insulin resistance going through the roof immediately" by administering an insulin bolus once a day. I would probably worry more about doing high doses of GH and overeating period (not just high GI carbs).
Being on a lot of GH you're hyperinsulinemic round the clock.

Even protein "causes" insulin resistance. It's not just a feature of high GI carb intake. I was looking for another study which I couldn't find, but found this. Animal studies, but still.

Highlights from the article:

"I want to be clear that our animal data suggest that there is nothing wrong with obtaining protein from sources that are high in branched-chain amino acids, as long as you are not eating beyond what your energy needs are," said Newgard, who is a professor of pharmacology and cancer biology and professor of medicine at Duke. "If you add a lot of unneeded protein to a fatty diet, perhaps that's where you get into problems. The ancient Greeks were right: everything in moderation."

The researchers also showed that BCAAs contributed to insulin resistance by chronically activating mTOR, a signaling protein that regulates cell growth and survival and that functions as a sensor of cellular nutrient and energy levels. When the rats had the drug rapamycin, which blocks mTOR, their insulin resistance was reversed.

**broken link removed**

 

[Kaladryn]

I certainly agree that you want to be insulin sensitive.

However, I have some thoughts on some of what you say. I don't know if say 20iu of insulin post workout is that much actually; from my understanding it's still well below supraphysiological levels. If diabetics ate huge postworkout meal(s) like many bodybuilders do, a hundred or two grams of quick digesting carbs with maybe a hundred grams of protein spread out over 2 hours or whatever, many of them would probably have to shoot more than that. If doing Humalog it's almost gone in 2 hours anyway, so I'm not sure about this "insulin resistance going through the roof immediately" by administering an insulin bolus once a day. I would probably worry more about doing high doses of GH and overeating period (not just high GI carbs).
Being on a lot of GH you're hyperinsulinemic round the clock.

Even protein "causes" insulin resistance. It's not just a feature of high GI carb intake. I was looking for another study which I couldn't find, but found this. Animal studies, but still.

Highlights from the article:




**broken link removed**

I agree that insulin resistance mgiht take time to build up, however I don't see how it would possible to use say 10iu of novolog with low insulin resistance on top of what your body is already producing. You would have to eat a hell of a lot more than 100g of carbs.

Generally, you will find the medical community is in denial about how much control diet and exercise have over insulin resistance, although I'm sure there are exceptions.

Here is an example, a friend of mine who is a powerlifter (843 lb squat at 225lbs. ) is a type I diabetic. His current bodyweight is about 235lbs and he is extremely active and lean. He uses a TOTAL of 22iu/day on average! Now that is low insulin resistance.

 

[GtMuscle]

I know you basically never elaborate on drug use, which is a shame. But I will try asking anyway. What is the purpose for insulin in bodybuilding, what does it do and what is "too much"? Do you agree with Emeric that the limit for benefits is 3iu?





Emeric, wasn't Milos connected to BALCO as some type of advisor? As you know, the basic standard Milos protocol is 20iu before workouts. If training twice daily that is 40iu/day. Sometimes a third 20iu dosage is added.
Do you really feel that 3iu will help muscle growth just as well?
I spoke to someone who trained with Milos and he thought some of the guys there did more than this 40-60iu too. If the benefits peaked at 3iu according to BALCO "research", it certainly didn't affect Milos' protocols.

As far as preworkout dosing, the idea is to take advantage of the increased blood flow, and increase it further with the insulin (theoretically getting more aminos/carbs into the worked muscle). Do you think this is useless?

I believe the 3iu dosing for track and field athletes, but they use it for different purposes, and who knows if it really did anything anyway. They don't want to increase muscle/weight unlike bodybuilders. I read some write-up about Russian athletes and they used even less, something like 1 paltry iu a couple of times a week.

Do you know where I can found milos protocol?