Would Ronnie and Dorian had more Mr O titles if they trained like Phil?

[1fst400]

Im going to sound like an asshole a little bit but this is my honest opinion.

Dorian just pushed himself way too hard close to competition. His body was not able to recover, his form is pretty good on everything he did you just cant push yourself so far past failure so close to a show. Hes admitted in interviews that pre contest was the only time he ever got injuries and if he could go back in time thats the only thing he would change, the intensity level the last 6 weeks or so.

Ronnie is the man, the greatest ever. A freak of nature. But he lifted weights like an asshole and his form is pretty shit on some of his biggest lifts like those infamous front squats. He loaded his hips way too much without proper external rotation in many heavy lifts. not surprising he has had his hips replaced. When i met him at the arnold this year he had his wheel chair and cruches right next to him, but he still stood up to shake everyones hand.

Sad truth is if ronnie has used better mechanics he could have kept training the way he did and had much less wear and tear imo.

you sound like an expert.

 

[Beti ona]

I believe Ronnie 2003 was the greatest showing of any bodybuilder ever.

This!!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogtq1hMK5SE"]Ronnie Coleman 2003 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[kinglewy]

Who would want to train any other way than say Dorian or Branch? Would Dorian have more O's? Who knows i doubt because he wouldn't be Dorian if he did....those videos of Dorian and Leroy are the best there will ever be flat out!

You cant even train that way at a regular gym besides say metroflex Texas.....for some people training is about getting the demons out of you and you have to get sick with it.....my mentor used to spit on the walls and trade punches in between sets, screaming and hollering and getting worked up into a berserk state of mind like he was going into battle

Best workouts and best progress I ever made hands down.....you would be surprised what the body will do when you work the mind into a berserk frenzy

I could never workout like say Kai whistling Dixie and humming while doing a set of squats....gotta get the bad shit out of me so it doesn't come out in public

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

1) Has Phil Heath made a gain in size AT ALL in years? no
2) Dorian and Ronnie dominated due to their sheer size...they outdistanced people because they separated themselves from their cohorts onstage....Heath has to worry about getting beat every single year if he doesnt come in shape
3) People want to think bodybuilding is like playing checkers and no injuries can ever happen. You get under bars and iron plates for hundreds and thousands of repetitive bouts.....injuries are GOING to happen. All it is going to take is one pec tear by Phil Heath and this argument will go away forever. People used to say the same thing about Jay Cutler like ("Jay trains lighter now unlike Dorian and Ronnie who were dumb to do so") and then Cutler tears both biceps (upper on one arm surgery), and the lower bicep on the other arm....and you dont hear a peep anymore......Heath from all these repetitive movements just might end up with a major injury with time...ala Dennis Wolfe (spine), Victor Martinez (quad, pec), Branch Warren (too many to name), Evan Centopani (quad), Cedric (bicep) etc etc etc....its the nature of the beast.
4) Dexter Jackson has never had a major injury and please note that Dexter Jackson hasnt changed sizewise in eons.
5) So the choice is either glide by hoping your elite genetics hold off everyone gunning for you, or get after it in the gym and dominate like Ronnie and Dorian did.....Heath is very lucky that he isnt in the 90's and early 2000's era going up against Ruhl, Sonbaty, Coleman, Yates, Levrone, Wheeler, Ray, Cormier, Cutler,......he would have his hands full and that narrow shoulder structure would be very pronounced..... standing next to 2003 Coleman would be very humbling

You know i was driving and i was thinking of this post and the 90's and 2000's bodybuilders i named.....and again with years and repetitive movements with hundreds of pounds of weights look what happened to virtually every 90's and 2000 bodybuilders and .....it will probably happen to virtually every modern bodybuilder including Heath with time.

Ruhl= torn triceps and torn pectorals
Sonbaty= torn bicep and I believe lower lat
Coleman= torn quad, torn lat
Yates= torn tricep, torn bicep
Levrone= torn lat/tricep tiein, torn pec
Wheeler= seems to have gotten out of it except for kidney failure
Ray=no tears but got pro card and gained minimal muscle in his pro career
Cormier=torn tricep, damaged spine
Cutler= two torn biceps

Be a bodybuilder at a high echelon for a length of time and there is a great chance you are going to get some kind of injury sometime (and most likely ) later on in your career....

 

[massnup]

You know i was driving and i was thinking of this post and the 90's and 2000's bodybuilders i named.....and again with years and repetitive movements with hundreds of pounds of weights look what happened to virtually every 90's and 2000 bodybuilders and .....it will probably happen to virtually every modern bodybuilder including Heath with time.

Ruhl= torn triceps and torn pectorals
Sonbaty= torn bicep and I believe lower lat
Coleman= torn quad, torn lat
Yates= torn tricep, torn bicep
Levrone= torn lat/tricep tiein, torn pec
Wheeler= seems to have gotten out of it except for kidney failure
Ray=no tears but got pro card and gained minimal muscle in his pro career
Cormier=torn tricep, damaged spine
Cutler= two torn biceps

Be a bodybuilder at a high echelon for a length of time and there is a great chance you are going to get some kind of injury sometime (and most likely ) later on in your career....

So with higher reps you cant even get around that? I ask because Ronnie would do 12 reps on pretty much every exercise except maybe squats and deadlifts on occasion.

 

[Elvia1023]

So with higher reps you cant even get around that? I ask because Ronnie would do 12 reps on pretty much every exercise except maybe squats and deadlifts on occasion.

I am not Dante but I think he simply means any form of hard training. If you train hard for years you should eventually get injured. We (well many of us) push out bodies to their complete limits everytime we are in the gym so something will eventually happen. It doesn't really matter if it's 1 rep or 15 reps. Obviously guys lifting massive weight for very low reps will have an increased risk of injury. But you mention Ronnie and 12 reps he would still take his body to complete failure on those 12 reps.

The harder you train I would say the more likely an injury is to occur. Obviously guys who lift lighter weight for higher reps and don't go to complete failure will have better odds of not getting injured. Genetics will always come into things. Tennis and Golf players injure themselves all the time so it's no wonder bodybuilders aren't any different as they push their bodies to the max.

 

[mister69]

Ronnie had 2 hip replacements and other spinal surgeries

 

[Elvia1023]

Ronnie had 2 hip replacements and other spinal surgeries

It's a shame to see Ronnie these days. Guys commend the spirit of the guy and I do too. But he is ruining his body even more. I have him on IG and he is training everyday and pushing it on leg press, extensions, leg curls etc. His hips and knees won't last long. He will probably end up permanently in a wheelchair.

 

[thethinker48]

Ronnie had 2 hip replacements and other spinal surgeries

Hip issues run in his family; his mom had those surgeries as well. I'm sure training with the poundages he trained with did not help either.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Beti ona]

Angel Spassov said that training to win is always on the edge of danger, and by the "player ruin theorem", at some point, something is going to have to break.

 

[Beti ona]

I am not Dante but I think he simply means any form of hard training. If you train hard for years you should eventually get injured. We (well many of us) push out bodies to their complete limits everytime we are in the gym so something will eventually happen. It doesn't really matter if it's 1 rep or 15 reps. Obviously guys lifting massive weight for very low reps will have an increased risk of injury. But you mention Ronnie and 12 reps he would still take his body to complete failure on those 12 reps.

The harder you train I would say the more likely an injury is to occur. Obviously guys who lift lighter weight for higher reps and don't go to complete failure will have better odds of not getting injured. Genetics will always come into things. Tennis and Golf players injure themselves all the time so it's no wonder bodybuilders aren't any different as they push their bodies to the max.

Great post!

 

[Landmonster]

It doesn't really matter if it's 1 rep or 15 reps. Obviously guys lifting massive weight for very low reps will have an increased risk of injury. But you mention Ronnie and 12 reps he would still take his body to complete failure on those 12 reps.

.

Keep something in mind.

Ronnie (literally) would do 500-600lbs on the squat for 12 reps.

In my mind, the absolute weight is what will do the damage, not necessarily the number of reps. For most of humanity, a 500lb squat would represent low reps, because it would be very difficult.

Is it the 500lbs that causes the problems for people, or the low reps? I'd argue it's the 500lbs.

His musculature was so strong, that lifting 600lbs for 12 reps may not have been difficult for his muscles. However, his ligaments, tendons, and joints all had to support that weight too.

 

[Landmonster]

The answer to the OP's question is.... "no".

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Phil Heath would be more dominant if he learned to train like Dorian.

Dorian has come out in interviews in recent years and expounded his exact thoughts about his former training. He has answered this question himself. To Dorian, training and bodybuilding was his sole focus in life during that period of his life. He not only put a great deal of physical effort into it, but he put a great deal of mental effort and philosophical thought into it. He wanted to understand why he was doing what he was doing, and do the most optimal thing possible.

Dorian said he wishes it were another way, but he still adamantly believes that the SUREST way to REAL muscle growth is ... to push the heaviest weights possible with maximal intensity.

He said he tried and experimented with other methods, and they did not work for him. He was very methodical with everything, and has kept detailed training logs throughout his career.

He only stopped growing when he stopped progressing in the gym. His gains on exercises correlated closely to his gains in stage mass. However, he ultimately had to retire due to injuries. His career only ended due to injuries, not because he chose to retire.

He said his body suffered for years afterwards from his heavy training routines. He eventually wanted to take up cardio, yoga, stretching, and other forms of therapy to feel like a regular man again.

(By the way, I have heard other monsters like Markus Ruhl, and Nasser say the exact same thing in different ways: They experimented with lighter weights with more reps or frequency, and ultimately just got smaller. Nasser said he would prefer to lift lighter, but he couldn't retain his size.)



So.... lift as heavy as possible if you want to be a huge as possible. But be aware the toll it takes on your joints, tendons, and body.

 

[Landmonster]

So with higher reps you cant even get around that? I ask because Ronnie would do 12 reps on pretty much every exercise except maybe squats and deadlifts on occasion.

Higher reps are less damaging than lower reps. We can all agree on that.


As I said, if you are so strong that you're squatting 600lbs for 12 reps, you are still probably doing alot of damage to your joints.

(Albeit less damage, than squatting 800lbs for 2 reps)

 

[Elvia1023]

Keep something in mind.

Ronnie (literally) would do 500-600lbs on the squat for 12 reps.

In my mind, the absolute weight is what will do the damage, not necessarily the number of reps. For most of humanity, a 500lb squat would represent low reps, because it would be very difficult.

Is it the 500lbs that causes the problems for people, or the low reps? I'd argue it's the 500lbs.

His musculature was so strong, that lifting 600lbs for 12 reps may not have been difficult for his muscles. However, his ligaments, tendons, and joints all had to support that weight too.

Of course. I was just pointing out the guy asked about Ronnie as in he usually done higher reps. It's not the reps that are important but the weight, frequency and time. Although I could have gone into more depth and mentioned the obvious fact Ronnie did do lower reps and massive weight at times too. Moreover everyone has different genetics and some may only need to lift relatively light weight over years to mess up their bodies. It's more just a matter of "hard" training but that could be anything. Anyone who lifts heavy things is at risk of injuring themselves. Increase the frequency of those heavy lifts and the probability increases. This is all just common sense though.