**Very Serious MENTAL Health Dangers Prolonged Caber/ Prami Use **

[nixon0808]

Whats up fellas, I commented on a post earlier about someone debating using caber/prami year round, and just wanted to lend my knowledge of the subject to all of you to help you better understand what can happen with sustained use of these potent dopamine agonists. Here's my post from the other thread.

Dopamine Agonists such as caber and prami should NEVER be used long term unless you plan to never come off the drug(for life) and suffer from a condition where DA agonists are needed to sustain normal life such as in the case of parkinsons.

Here's why. The reason why dopamine agonists (caber/prami) make you feel so good (more energy, motivated, increased sex drive) is right there in the name, Dopamine. These drugs flood the brain with superphysilogical amounts of dopamine. Now here in lies the problem. Your dopamine receptors are very delicate little creatures, and are used to accepting normal amounts of dopamine pulses that your body naturally produces.

What can happen and most certaintly will with sustained use of dopamine agonists is these dopamine receptors will begin to downregulate themselves becuase of the prescense of superphysilogical levels of dopamine in the system. If any of you have used caber etc on cycle of say 3 or so months, sure there's been some downregulation of your dopamine receptors, BUT the body is an amazing creature and will begin to upregulate those same receptors so 3 or so months of use more than likely wont be life changing for you.

Now here comes the scary part. Using Caber or prami on a consistant basis for more than I would say 3 or so months or so and these same dopamine receptors have to downregulate themselves so much that the receptor actually dies and will no longer to ever accept dopamine again (for life). This is the same phenomena that is seen in methamphetamine addicts who even though have been clean for months and even years, but will never return to their formal level of happiness because of their damaged dopamine system.
You can research it more for yourself if you'd like. Type in DAWS cabergoline or DAWS prami (DAWS stands for Dopamine Agonist Withdraw Syndrome) and you will see cases of people with sustained use who even after quitting the drug for months and years are now depresssed and will never be able to return to their form of mental state. Its a very sad condition.

Where is the line? I don't know. But I certaintly would not use these potent DA drugs anything outside of a cycle to reduce prolactin. Hope this helps some people see how and why these drugs can be very helpful but also extremely damaging to ones mental heath.

Nixon

 

[infinity1]

At what doses and frequency are you speaking of?

 

[matt1164]

thanks for the info.

 

[nothuman]

I saw this too and now I am afraid to keep using caber, assuming what I am using is legit.

 

[infinity1]

I googled DAWS and everything that I found indicated that the patients were using 4-6 mg per day...that is easily a months supply for a bber taking .5mg 3x/week...do you have any data on lower dosing protocols that would support this DAWS theory?

 

[Simpllyhuge]

That sucks. guess I have no hope for my sex drive.

 

[MaineGuy]

That sucks. guess I have no hope for my sex drive.

Simplly,
Our HPTA is a very delicate process, by using AAS we mess with this process. If you are having libido problems, I would come down to a TRT dose and stay there for a while, then get blood work done. You will be able to figure out what is causing it and fix it, it will probably fix itself. If you keep cycling or blasting, you are never going to figure out what is wrong. I hate not having a libido, I don't know how some people can go so long without one.

 

[nixon0808]

At what doses and frequency are you speaking of?

From my research and understanding of nuerotransmitters, ANY dosage used for a SUSTAINED time has a very good chance of reducing the amount of dopamine receptors in the brain. The key word to keep in mind here is sustained use. Where is the line? Like I said before, that is way too complicated to answer as neurotransmitters are a very tricky thing to pin down from person to person.

 

[fitnessjess]

i would imagine that youd have to run some pretty large dosages over a long period of time for this to happen. mirapex is also given to patients with restless legs syndrome. even a long term meth addicts receptors can recover after long term usage.

 

[nixon0808]

I googled DAWS and everything that I found indicated that the patients were using 4-6 mg per day...that is easily a months supply for a bber taking .5mg 3x/week...do you have any data on lower dosing protocols that would support this DAWS theory?

Ill try and post some of the research I came across when I have some time to dig it up. What you have to realize is regarding neurotransmitters, specifically dopamine, is that no matter how small the dosage being used, these receptors over time will desensatize themselves simply becuase there are superphysilogical amounts of dopamine in the system.

The only difference is how soon this desensitization occurs. Someone using 4-6 mgs of cabergoline a week absolutely will see permenant damage a lot sooner than someone using 1 or so mg a week. But the key point to remember is that no matter what the dosage, possible perminent desensitization will occur.

Nixon

 

[nixon0808]

i would imagine that youd have to run some pretty large dosages over a long period of time for this to happen. mirapex is also given to patients with restless legs syndrome. even a long term meth addicts receptors can recover after long term usage.

Some recovery is possible, but it is a proven fact that "death" of dopamine receptors has been seen in long term methamphetamine users. Dopamine is one nuerotransmitter you don't want to alter too much over a sustained amount of time.

Something about the way caber and prami work with dopamine system in the brain can make these changes permenent, which is pretty scary.

Just a side note, Im very knowledgable on drugs and their effects on the brain and nuerotranmitters and I can't say there is any other drug (not heroin, cocaine, painkillers, speed etc) that have this type of possible PERMENENT damage done to the brain and system in which it interacts with( in this case dopamine) This is outside of 2 drugs one being MDMA ( possible permenant damage to serotonin system with prolonged use) and meth (possible permenent damage to dopamine system)

Its been shown that the opiate system and its abusers (Painkillers, Heroin) after going through hellascious withdraws that first week or so, can return to normal neurotransmitter levels of that which were pre-abuse. Same goes for the GABA system and its abusers (Alcohol, benzos , GHB). Now these abusers take a little longer to return to a normal fuctioning brain as opposed to opiate abusers, but alas, full recovery can and will happen.

There's something terrifying messing with your dopamine system in regards to permanent damage. From my research and knowledge of neurochemistry, the dopamine receptors are simple a lot more fragile than others, so drugs that primary affect dopamine levels (Methamphetamine, crack, coke, prami and caber) should be used with extreme caution if one cares about permenent damage being done

Nixon

 

[wukillabee]

Simplly,
Our HPTA is a very delicate process, by using AAS we mess with this process. If you are having libido problems, I would come down to a TRT dose and stay there for a while, then get blood work done. You will be able to figure out what is causing it and fix it, it will probably fix itself. If you keep cycling or blasting, you are never going to figure out what is wrong. I hate not having a libido, I don't know how some people can go so long without one.

Personally I've never NOT had a libido while on, low at times yes but always able to fix the issue. First off people need to learn how to control their estro levels which all this is really on a person to person basis as we all react a bit different to different doses. Now if estro is in check, only other issue would be progesterone sides which would then be corrected by prami and/or caber. Even running just 250iu of HCG 2x a week while at the peak of a cycle along with an AI low dose as helped me as well when not running any 19-nors. Just food for thought but can certainly not go with NO sex drive, that's just terrible...

Bloodwork also helps pinpoint the issue but if not running a 19-nor then it shouldn't be hard to figure out and if estro is under control and running a 19-nor then again shouldn't be hard to figure out the issue. Just my .02

 

[infinity1]

Ill try and post some of the research I came across when I have some time to dig it up. What you have to realize is regarding neurotransmitters, specifically dopamine, is that no matter how small the dosage being used, these receptors over time will desensatize themselves simply becuase there are superphysilogical amounts of dopamine in the system.

The only difference is how soon this desensitization occurs. Someone using 4-6 mgs of cabergoline a week absolutely will see permenant damage a lot sooner than someone using 1 or so mg a week. But the key point to remember is that no matter what the dosage, possible perminent desensitization will occur.

Nixon

Thanks for your help-if you come across any studies please let me know-I will continue to look as well.

 

[fitnessjess]

Some recovery is possible, but it is a proven fact that "death" of dopamine receptors has been seen in long term methamphetamine users. Dopamine is one nuerotransmitter you don't want to alter too much over a sustained amount of time.

Something about the way caber and prami work with dopamine system in the brain can make these changes permenent, which is pretty scary.

Just a side note, Im very knowledgable on drugs and their effects on the brain and nuerotranmitters and I can't say there is any other drug (not heroin, cocaine, painkillers, speed etc) that have this type of possible PERMENENT damage done to the brain and system in which it interacts with( in this case dopamine) This is outside of 2 drugs one being MDMA ( possible permenant damage to serotonin system with prolonged use) and meth (possible permenent damage to dopamine system)

Its been shown that the opiate system and its abusers (Painkillers, Heroin) after going through hellascious withdraws that first week or so, can return to normal neurotransmitter levels of that which were pre-abuse. Same goes for the GABA system and its abusers (Alcohol, benzos , GHB). Now these abusers take a little longer to return to a normal fuctioning brain as opposed to opiate abusers, but alas, full recovery can and will happen.

There's something terrifying messing with your dopamine system in regards to permanent damage. From my research and knowledge of neurochemistry, the dopamine receptors are simple a lot more fragile than others, so drugs that primary affect dopamine levels (Methamphetamine, crack, coke, prami and caber) should be used with extreme caution if one cares about permenent damage being done

Nixon

im pretty knowledgeable myself (or at least i used to be, i dont study the stuff like i used to) and i just think that in most cases recovery to a degree is always possible. you mentioned mdma and for about two years i did alot of mdma and i can say that i dont feel it affected me in anyway, but at the same time everyones different. i would just think to risk permanent damage youd have have to be on prami or caber for a long time (years) and i just dont see why anyone would do that anyway (unless they had restless legs or parkinsons)

 

[bgspin]

OP , great post man. Makes perfect sense to me. When i was younger i took a lot of ecstasy. I remember when i finally stopped just feeling empty and depressed for some time. Hell, If you roll hard the next couple days following you just feel unhappy.

 

[TractionIssues]

It would be interesting to know if alternating prami and caber would at least slightly reduce the chances of this. But do you think you could post up the research you have done on this, it would be very interesting to read.

 

[nixon0808]

It would be interesting to know if alternating prami and caber would at least slightly reduce the chances of this. But do you think you could post up the research you have done on this, it would be very interesting to read.

In my opinion alternating wouldn't make a difference. They're both very potent dopamine agonists. There's something very worrysome about pure Dopamine agonists(caber,prami) even as opposed to other dopaminergenic drugs (cocaine, speed, adderall etc) as far as long term damage to the dopamine system

Nixon

 

[milkhouse]

I thought we talked about this in another thread before. Wasn't this at like 1mg per day dosage?
Or am I think of something else that was caber related

 

[Thor]

Good to know

thanks for finding that,,, I only run .5 mgs of Prami while on Tren and that is only twice a years for 10 weeks

 

[Elvia1023]

I would never run a dopamine agonist for longer than approx 6-8 weeks. They should be run in cycles like everything else. Even after that time be prepared for a post cycle low.