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Honestly, there is a secret to growth

hi guys,
new here, greetings from Italy,
after read the 3ead today I had a try with eccentrics protocol, delts, side db raises (one arm).
I warmed up nicely then loaded bb with 30% more weight I used for 5 straight reps, having no spotter/training partner; my home-gym is in my warehouse , I placed the db on a water pallets (about 5'5'' height, db was higher than my delt) and performed just eccentrics reps.
I did 8 reps until rep speed was too fast; eccentrics are pretty brutal..feel a lot sore and pumped.
waited 2 m and did a 12 reps set (two arms).
Having used an Hernon protocol for last 4 week I noted that I used same load (on this final/second set) I use with my third set (hernon style).
I would like to know if this is the right way (% of loading,reps number etc etc) to train with just eccentric reps.

thanx

Mikael from Italy
 
Bump for this thread.

And it works for sure.
My triceps have been lagging behind my biceps for quite some time.
I have recently started implementing this in and in less than 4 weeks my total arm measurement is up almost a 1/2"

For me I have been using close grip bb floor press.


Now its time to find ways to implement it into my other exercises for more growth all over :)
 
Gonna try this.

Seems like it shouldn't be used all the time though, just occasionally so you don't burn the CNS out no?

Mainly talking about the larger movements here.
 
I'd say in my case I was getting a bit of tendon pain and could hardly fully extend my arms for a good 12 hours after doing it (I could but the tendons were sore). It works but be careful, don't want an injury then not able to train at all...


I cycle it in and out, like every other time, sometimes every other other. I also reduce total sets when doing it, maybe 2-3 set when doing it and otherwise 4-5 sets when not.
 
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I've been doing this for bicep's, straight bar curls and and for chest incline hammer strength machine. it's great !!
 
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i will do chest-biceps,legs-hams-calves,shouler-triceps and back traps, 1 ex per muscle 3 sets, 2 ex for back.

is it right ?

thank's for the answer

drago
 
I always thought negatives were the best way to break the plateau but this sounds like a better idea. I'll try it out in the gym today.
 
Muscle Growth Update

By Robbie Durand, M.A.

Senior Web Editor

No-Bullshit Leg Growth!



People ask me all the time, "C'mon, this is not real... this has to be a Photoshopped picture of Jay Cutler's legs, right?" You can look at the contest pics on musculardevelopment.com and see the exact same leg shot of Jay Cutler competing in Mr. Olympia— so there is nothing fake about Jay Cutler's legs. Legs are a weak point for many people, and having weak legs can inhibit your progress in any bodybuilding show. So if you are not blessed with great legs, how the hell do you build them?

I have heard many anecdotal routines such as 100-rep squats, hitting legs every day, and doing high-volume sets, but it's not often you can say that I have a routine that has withstood the scientific process and is proven to get your wheels bigger! Not only that, but the study was done in well-trained resistance athletes with at least five years of resistance training, which is just about every person who reads MD. One of the 'flaws' of some studies is that they use untrained subjects, which does not relate to MD readers. This study can be applied to every reader of MD who wants bigger legs.

If you go into any muscle physiology laboratory and ask the scientists how muscles grow, they will say muscle growth is an accumulation of many things— but a predominant factor is tension overload. Back in the early '70s, researchers quickly realized that if you took a rat and had it walk downhill on a treadmill or induced tension overload by putting a muscle on stretch (eccentric contractions), all sorts of nasty things could be done to try and blunt muscle hypertrophy— but it did not stop muscle hypertrophy from occurring. Researchers removed the rats' pituitary gland so they could not produce GH or IGF-1, castrated them so they could not produce testosterone, removed their thyroid, or just didn't feed them. Despite this punishment, the rats still had increases in muscle hypertrophy in their legs.

In his research, Dr. Goldberg noted, "Maximal tension development leads to increases in muscle hypertrophy. Unlike normal developmental growth, work-induced hypertrophy can be induced in hypophysectomized [rats that can't produce GH] or diabetic animals. This process thus appears independent of growth hormone and insulin as well as testosterone and thyroid hormones. Hypertrophy can also be induced in fasting animals, in which there is a generalized muscle wasting. Thus, muscular activity takes precedence over endocrine influences on muscle size."10

So you can take all the drugs on the market, but if you don't use high-tension overload, you will always be beaten onstage by someone who trains with this method. I have written about eccentric training principles in the past, but if this does not get you thinking about incorporating some eccentric training into your routine, then you must be satisfied with your leg growth. If you want to add a few inches to your legs, read on.

A Brief History of Eccentric Training

I write about the benefits of eccentric (ECC) training for muscle growth, yet at every gym I visit, rarely do I see bodybuilders controlling the negative portion— often it's just the typical lowering in a second or less. A study published American Journal of Physiology - Endocrinology and Metabolism should encourage bodybuilders to emphasize maximal ECC contractions if they are looking to stimulate muscle hypertrophy.

Researchers were specifically interested in a protein called p70S6k. In recent years, marked progress has been made in identifying the signaling substrates essential for muscle growth and development. mTOR, which is stimulated by the amino acid leucine, is one— and another key signaling protein for muscle hypertrophy is p70S6k. Persistent overexpression of IGF-1 in skeletal muscle of mice results in hypertrophy, which is mediated via the mTOR/ p70S6k pathway.1

Another interesting fact is that muscle hypertrophy seems to be blunted in aged humans, and one of the reasons may be that mTOR and p70S6k are increased in skeletal muscle after a single bout of intense contractile activity in aged animals— but the response is less than that observed in younger animals.2 These observations suggest that the anabolic response of both mTOR and p70S6k to a single bout of contraction is attenuated by aging, and may help explain the reduced capacity for hypertrophy in aged humans.

It has been well documented that ECC contractions are more important for muscle hypertrophy than concentric (CON) contractions, but the anabolic signaling proteins have not yet been investigated. Researchers from Sweden had 10 male subjects perform either 4 sets of 6 reps of maximal eccentric contractions on one leg, followed by 4 sets of 6 reps of maximal concentric contractions on the other leg. The subjects were trained in a fasted state. Researchers took muscle biopsy samples from the subjects' upper thighs in both legs before, immediately after, one hour and two hours after exercise. The results indicate that one session of maximal ECC contractions activates the hypertrophy-signaling protein p70S6k (more on this important protein later) in human muscle, and suggest that maximal ECC contractions are more effective than maximal CON contractions in stimulating protein synthesis in the absence of nutritional intake.2

Interestingly, maximal CON contractions did not increase activity of p70S6k, which may be the reason many researchers have reported that performing CON contractions without an ECC contraction does not yield increases in muscle mass.

p70S6k Correlates With Increased Muscle Mass

The anabolic benefits of resistance exercise are likely to be mediated through changes in signal transduction proteins. One of the key anabolic-regulating proteins is p70S6k. This protein has emerged as an important factor in muscle cell size regulation, as it is a regulator of the mTOR pathway— known to regulate muscle growth.

p70S6k is an important activator of insulin/IGF-1 pathway.3 Animal studies have reported that castration and a subsequent decline in testosterone leads to a rapid decrease in p70S6k and muscle atrophy. However, administration of testosterone induces a rapid increase in p70S6k and upregulation of IGF-1.4 Interestingly, the muscle hypertrophy induced by clenbuterol was associated with local increases in IGF-1 and p70S6k in muscle.5,6

p70S6k increases key signaling proteins that stimulate muscle protein synthesis— insulin,7 growth factors, hypertrophic agents8 and branched-chain amino acids all increase p70S6k activity in muscle. Exercise-induced increases in p70S6k activity correlate with increased muscle mass after six weeks of resistance exercise and with elevated protein synthesis rates in muscle, both 12 and 24 hours into recovery. Based on the research, an increase in p70S6k activity increases protein synthesis and correlates with increased muscle mass.

Operation Leg Growth!

Researchers from Germany took 30 well-trained athletes with at least five years of training and divided them into two groups. The first group did standard weight-training exercises with standardized leg extensions, which were performed for six weeks. The other group performed the exact same routine, but when they lifted the weight up on the leg extension machine, they increased the weight during the eccentric portion— which caused an eccentric overload for the bottom portion. Both groups performed 5 sets of leg extensions with an 8-rep maximum.

Here is the interesting twist that many bodybuilders are probably not used to— the subjects trained legs three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday). The athletes were told to perform each movement as explosively as possible, but with good form. The subjects trained to absolute failure with each set. They used a workload for the eccentric portion that was nearly double that of the concentric portion, so if they lifted with 100 pounds, they lowered the weight with nearly 200 pounds. They trained like this for six weeks, had muscle biopsies done and had their tissues analyzed for muscle growth factors. At the end of the six weeks, the athletes were measured for strength and muscle hypertrophy.

Both groups had increases in muscle mass and strength, but the traditional weight training with the eccentric overload group kicked the traditional weight training group's ass! Eccentric overload resulted in greater increases in fast-twitch muscle fibers, greater increases in the androgen receptor, greater increases in genes regulating muscle hypertrophy, enhanced satellite cell activation, and greater muscle strength.10 The group that performed the eccentric overload had a greater overall anabolic response, compared to conventional training— basically resulting in a bigger, stronger, and faster athlete.

So my question to you is— why the hell aren't you incorporating some eccentric movements in your training routine? Try this, next time you go to the gym to train legs: at the end of your leg session when you do leg extensions, have a training partner push down on the eccentric portion and as you get to the bottom, have your partner let go. You are going to have to use a much lighter weight than normal, but you are going to feel it during the next few days. This technique can be used for any lagging body part.

I've given you a practical application for using eccentrics. The plan is going to make you sore as hell, but the benefits are well worth it. The study used an apparatus that overloaded the eccentric portion on the way down, but you can have a training partner push down as hard as possible while you are doing leg extensions, which will mimic the device. If you don't have a training partner, do the concentric portion with two legs and lower with one leg. Either method will produce eccentric overload and result in a similar effect. This type of training does not only apply to legs, but could also be used with other muscle groups as well.

References:

1. Glass DJ. Signalling pathways that mediate skeletal muscle hypertrophy and atrophy. Nat Cell Biol, 2003 Feb;5(2):87-90.

2. Parkington JD, LeBrasseur NK, Siebert AP, Fielding RA. Contraction-mediated mTOR, p70S6k, and ERK1/2 phosphorylation in aged skeletal muscle. J Appl Physiol, 2004 Jul;97(1):243-8.

3. Avruch J. Insulin signal transduction through protein kinase cascades. Mol Cell Biochem, 1998 May;182(1-2):31-48.

4. Xu T, Shen Y, Pink H, Triantafillou J, Stimpson SA, Turnbull P, Han B. Phosphorylation of p70s6 kinase is implicated in androgen-induced levator ani muscle anabolism in castrated rats. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 2004 Dec;92(5):447-54.

5. Sneddon AA, Delday MI, Steven J, Maltin CA. Elevated IGF-II mRNA and phosphorylation of 4E-BP1 and p70(S6k) in muscle showing clenbuterol-induced anabolism. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, 2001 Oct;281(4):E676-82.

6. Awede BL, Thissen JP, Lebacq J. Role of IGF-1 and IGFBPs in the changes of mass and phenotype induced in rat soleus muscle by clenbuterol. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, 2002 Jan;282(1):E31-7.

7. Proud, GC, and Denton RM. Molecular mechanisms for the control of translation by insulin. Biochem J, 328: 329-341, 1997.

8. Boluyt, MO, Zheng J-S, Younes A, Long S, O'Neill L, Silverman
 
Honesty-THATS NOT A SECRET

Never saw this thread before- there is not a fucking secret and that technique has been around since the dawn of time. Now a days guys use bands to simulate or chains.
How typical- an ambiguous mystery topic posted up as if theres some fucking Davinci code to growing.

Honestly? I call 100% BULLSHIT.
 
Never saw this thread before- there is not a fucking secret and that technique has been around since the dawn of time. Now a days guys use bands to simulate or chains.
How typical- an ambiguous mystery topic posted up as if theres some fucking Davinci code to growing.

Honestly? I call 100% BULLSHIT.

Thank fvck someone said the obvious. However, that is the business Ajdos...
 
Thank fvck someone said the obvious. However, that is the business Ajdos...

Completely is too. You are right. Everyone wants to make it sound so mysterious and elusive.
NO.
Bottom line is its real simple....hard work.
Yeah you have to have some technique and organization to what you are doing, a plan of attack per se. An idea of how you want your training to change your body and how to get better recovery.
But the bottom line is, what you put in...is what you get out.
 
Completely is too. You are right. Everyone wants to make it sound so mysterious and elusive.
NO.
Bottom line is its real simple....hard work.
Yeah you have to have some technique and organization to what you are doing, a plan of attack per se. An idea of how you want your training to change your body and how to get better recovery.
But the bottom line is, what you put in...is what you get out.

So what you are saying is doing DNA testing isn't really going to magically give me the knowledge of how I should train to create growth? :D
 
So what you are saying is doing DNA testing isn't really going to magically give me the knowledge of how I should train to create growth? :D

Lets see, how long has DNA testing been around? I dont know, thats a legit question, another question is how long has it been around and accessible to the every day common person?
Ok- probably not that long....the human genome was just mapped out completely about 15 years ago.

SO- how did all these bodybuilders before make progress? Surely not by DNA testing. I mean it may help narrow things down, help you be healthier but most people can do that anyways.

If you want DNA testing, go for it, probably nothing wrong with it at all, maybe it even helps but its not a dependent variable in the equation of growth.
AND that is the crux of the thread? No?
 
Here it is but its HARD to do...........you must have a special machine or a training partner that is dedicated and willing. IF you can find such a thing, you are in LUCK. I wont go into much detail other than just explain what you need to do.........I wont go into sets, reps or anything else because it is not fair to my paying clients..........most times I dont even tell them because its not feasible...but IF IT IS...........what a growth ride you are on.
1. Make the eccentric contraction HEAVIER than the concentric contraction each rep.
2. HOW? Well, have your partner PUSH DOWN ON THE NEGATIVE STROKE ONLY.......the let it go on the positive stroke........EACH REP.
3. Wait until you see how LIGHT the positive stroke is after the HEAVY negative......great adaption blaster.

Phil that's very good info, I actually use resistance bands sometimes on my benches and bent over rows, they work wonders
 
Hahaha! here comes the alters.:naughty::rolleyes::naughty::yeahthat:
 
<enters bunker and awaits imminent war>
::tar-wars:
 
Why Faster Negatives are Superior Muscle Builders


The most recent studies now show that all of those people over the last 40 years who told us to emphasize the negative were absolutely, 100% FULL OF SHIT!

No, I am not saying the negative portion of the rep is worthless. In fact, it is vitally important--the most important part of the rep by far. Rather, the error has to do with the manner in which we have been told to perfrom our negatives.

Traditionally, we have been told to slow down the negative--to really "take advantage" of this portion of the rep, but all the recent studies are showing that the slower a negative is performed, the LESS beneficial it is for muscle growth. Slower negatives decrease muscle stress by reducing mucle fiber damage. In reality, the faster the negative contraction, the more potent it is for muscle growth. Here's how it works...

A concentric contraction occurs when myosin attaches to and then pulls on actin, shortening the muscle fiber. After the contraction is complete, myosin then disconnects from actin. This type of contraction is powered by ATP.

However, when we do an eccentric contraction the muscle lengthens. When this happens myosin attaches to and detaches from actin in the same way, decelerating the weight. Here's the big difference. While the concentric contraction cycle is powered by ATP, the eccentric contraction cycle is not. Instead, when myosin detaches from actin, it is caused by the forced lengthening of the muscle fiber. Basically, they are ripped apart.

These forced attachments cause the myosin to pull on the actin much harder, causing much greater amounts of muscle fiber damage.

So, why are faster negatives superior for growth? Eccentric contractions at greater velocity increases the power of these forced dettachments. In other words, the muscle fiber must work harder to slow down a faster moving weight compared to a slower moving weight The greater velocity increases muscular stress--makes the muscle fiber work harder to stop the weight. This greater stress translates into a superior growth response.

Now, stop and think about what has transpired in the real-world in your own training or the training of others. If slower negatives resulted in greater stress and a superior growth response, all of us would be gaining more muscle by doing 5, 7, or even 10 second negatives on each rep, but anyone who has used this tyle of training will tell you it is far inferior. It may provide a slight improvement initially, simply as a result of providing the body with a different stressor, but in the long-run the individual experiences reduced muscle growth and strength gains.

Look around and tell me how many huge BB'rs you see doing their reps like this? I have yet to see one that compares to the monsters who do faster, more explosive reps. The biggest, strongest guys are almost always those who either do their reps very quickly and explosively...or don't overemphasize the negative. They might control the negatuve (not drop it), yet they don't do it slowly, as has been advocated by those who claim that 5+ second negatives stimulate superior growth.

Look at guys like Johnnie Jackson and Branch Warren--two of the most massivley developed BB'rs in the pro league. They have frequently been criticized for their "dropping" of the weight, but are any of the guys doing their negatyuve slowly bigger than them? In fact, how many pros in the entire IFBB pack more muscle onto their frames? I can name numerous past & current pros, as well as many pro strongmen who do not emphasize the negative, but do their reps fairly to extremely explosively...and they can all claim to be among the biggest, strongest men who have ever lived. If you can show me even a fraction as many men who have achieved similar size or strength gains by doing slow negatives, I will recant my statement, but that will never happen.

Surely, someone will mention Dorian Yates, but understand that although Dorian was known for controlling the negative, he did not do his negatives "slowly". On most exercises he took only a couple seconds to perform a negative...not to mention he simpy trained harder and was more dedicated to every aspect of his program than any BB'r alive at the time. Reagrdless, the science is abunantly clear. The faster we do our negatives, the more stress we place on our muscles. In addition, faster negatives also increase the amount of work the muscle performs over a given period of time--another factor involved in muscle growth.


The studies have been done, the real-world evidence has been witnessed, and the verdict is out. The faster we perform our reps, the greater the muscular stress we experience, resulting in an improved growth rate. Ask Sergio, Arnold, Franco, Haney, Ronnie and Cutler--the biggest men of their day and they all trained explosively.

The idea of the slow negative sounded plausible in theory, but it never panned out in the real world. Not only have we seen the results, but we now know why. Of course, we must take safety into consideration when training explosively...and the risk of injury is increased, but in terms of results, there is no doubt that it is the superior method.

Going back to the OP, Phil's idea is a good one. By placing additional resistance on the muscle during the negative portion of the rep, we increase the number of forced myosin-actin dettachments, resulting in greater stress and improved growth. In fact, this is one of the very best ways to use negatives, as it allows us to overload both the eccentric and concentric phases of the lift during a single set. Obviously, this can be difficult or even impossible to do on certain movements, and will require a capable training partner, but it is a great technique.

In order to extract maximum results from this method, the training partner should push down on the weight hard enough so that we are forced to complete the negative portion of the lift fairly quickly, despite our greatest attempt to stop the weight. By doing so, we will not only cause a greater number of forced myosin-actin dettachments, but we will increase the force with which these dettachments take place, resulting in a massive amount of muscle damage. I suspect that that this technique could only be used occasionally, or else overtraining seems a likely reality.
 
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I bet thats how Ronnie got so big and outmuscled everyone on stage but he just never showed the secret in any of his videos! :rolleyes:
 

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