After fasted morning cardio, best post workout meal??

[Stayinfit]

The answer is, it depends... it depends on the type of training, what you ate prior to training, how much volume, goals... etc... There is not concrete evidence via research for an "optimal" dose of EAAs, but some research suggests the equivalent amount of EAAs in 25g of whey protein will produce a maximal protein synthetic response. If training with a good amount of volume, I would suggest more... Depending on how many muscle groups and volume, I would suggest 20-30g EAAs and at least 5g leucine... This is consistent with Mountaindog's recommendations in the intra workout thread....

For cardio, 10g of EAAs should be fine.... if you wanted to simulate more fat loss, try yohimbine HCl at .2mg per kg of bodyweight prior to cardio

Actually I do take yohimbine from TP. I wake up at 3 or 330. fix coffee, have my yohimbine and taurine then go hit cardio. Sometimes HIIT and sometimes just a good brisk 30minute low intensity on treadmill or stairs. Actually following MDs protocol as far as training. Just started Phase 1 last week so my volume is lower right now. Thanks for all the input. I appreciate it.

 

[NY Muscle]

As title says guys. What are u guys doing for a post workout meal after 60min fasted treadmill morning cardio to get lean? I usually do 9 eggs (2 yolks) and a cup of brown rice. Just wanted to see some other options and ideas.

I'm doing this now and I do cardio at 6am then after shower by 715am I have liquid egg whites and turkey bacon and a small amount of shredded cheddar. If I also have to work out later that morning then I will take a small amount of whey in water with 1tbsp of coconut oil. I'm losing fat this way and maintaining lbm.

On my high carb days I do have oatmeal post cardio but that's not often and I am still able to keep fat loss going even with that random carb email post am cardio.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

 

[ryanbCXG]

Again its personal preference, I burn fat just fine eating carbs post cardio.
Besides knowing your actual basal metabolism doesn't stay elevated very long with cardio compared to weights Im really not seeing the benefit of an extra 45 min of diminishing returns.
You fasted, you did cardio (fat burning) now eat...just my opinion speaking- no science at all.

Its not about the elevation in metabolism per se. Even HIIT elevates the metabolism to burn another 75-100 cals in a day. Thats not an elevation in my mind lol. The idea is that youve elevated fat burning machinery why turn it off with insulin bump of any kind. Keep that machinery at max efficiency and as turned on as it can. And let it keep burning fat. Unless you have issues getting all your food in and need it mroe spread out I can find a good argument for eating immediately post cardio. And muscle catabolism is not a good argument since it isnt present.

 

[ryanbCXG]

The answer is, it depends... it depends on the type of training, what you ate prior to training, how much volume, goals... etc... There is not concrete evidence via research for an "optimal" dose of EAAs, but some research suggests the equivalent amount of EAAs in 25g of whey protein will produce a maximal protein synthetic response. If training with a good amount of volume, I would suggest more... Depending on how many muscle groups and volume, I would suggest 20-30g EAAs and at least 5g leucine... This is consistent with Mountaindog's recommendations in the intra workout thread....

For cardio, 10g of EAAs should be fine.... if you wanted to simulate more fat loss, try yohimbine HCl at .2mg per kg of bodyweight prior to cardio

Any reason why you use more than 10g I havent seen any study show any benefit in MPS elevation beyon 8g of EAAs. 10 is just such a nice round number thats what i like to use

 

[ajdos]

Its not about the elevation in metabolism per se. Even HIIT elevates the metabolism to burn another 75-100 cals in a day. Thats not an elevation in my mind lol. The idea is that youve elevated fat burning machinery why turn it off with insulin bump of any kind. Keep that machinery at max efficiency and as turned on as it can. And let it keep burning fat. Unless you have issues getting all your food in and need it mroe spread out I can find a good argument for eating immediately post cardio. And muscle catabolism is not a good argument since it isnt present.

Your kidding right? Muscle catabolism is not present with no glucose?
Mkkkayy- muscle catabolism is ALWAYS present and in the absence of glucose which is protein sparing its even MORE present.
Im sorry I can respect some of you guys science but its funny when I see plenty of people who eat the carbs burning body fat just fine, I see -for myself and people like myself absolutely no extra fat burning advantage here.
AND like I stated before with LOW carbs for a person my size and the GDAs my blood glucose is not going to stay elevated long enough or have enough of an insulin response to blunt any fat burning.
Its funny I have dieted down like this for a while and manage to lose fat like this easily. Problem for me is if I don't eat ENOUGH carbs.
You do it your way Ill do it mine but no amount of science in the world would EVER get me to do it that way.
Its muscle breakdown city and I have known a particular trainer who loves to do this to his athletes and loses everyone of them to other trainers who don't, and the athletes always excel under a system where carbs are doled out at specific times and denied at others and these times always coincide with training i.e. cardio or lifting.
But hey you guys wanna do the whole NO carbs, carbs are going to prevent fat loss then finally have some 6-8 hours later, do what ya gotta.
I tried that kinda diet ONCE, and I will never do it again.

Whats funny is we see this all the time with competitors they are low carbed or zero carbed too long and we give them carbs and let them eat for a while all of a sudden they start burning more fat and their metabolic rates go out of control-they'll be hungrier then when they were on low carbs but now they are bigger fuller and stronger.
Now obviously we have to lower them to do this but a pendulum like approach were you vacillate between both environments seems to be a better approach- but hey Im no guru, just a guy who is disagreeing and has NO science to back up his broscience lol.

 

[flexdurden]

Any reason why you use more than 10g I havent seen any study show any benefit in MPS elevation beyon 8g of EAAs. 10 is just such a nice round number thats what i like to use

This is my thought process... If you are training multiple muscle groups and have a good amount of volume then provide each muscle group with a bolus of EAAs... When it comes to intra workout I'd rather overshoot personally...

I'm training nearly all body parts 4 times per week so I try to ensure I get enough EAAs to allow all groups to recover

 

[warlock]

Mentalflex,

Do you always suggest adding 5 gr of leucine to your intra workout drink with HBCD and EAAs?

 

[ryanbCXG]

Your kidding right? Muscle catabolism is not present with no glucose?
Mkkkayy- muscle catabolism is ALWAYS present and in the absence of glucose which is protein sparing its even MORE present.
Im sorry I can respect some of you guys science but its funny when I see plenty of people who eat the carbs burning body fat just fine, I see -for myself and people like myself absolutely no extra fat burning advantage here.
AND like I stated before with LOW carbs for a person my size and the GDAs my blood glucose is not going to stay elevated long enough or have enough of an insulin response to blunt any fat burning.
Its funny I have dieted down like this for a while and manage to lose fat like this easily. Problem for me is if I don't eat ENOUGH carbs.
You do it your way Ill do it mine but no amount of science in the world would EVER get me to do it that way.
Its muscle breakdown city and I have known a particular trainer who loves to do this to his athletes and loses everyone of them to other trainers who don't, and the athletes always excel under a system where carbs are doled out at specific times and denied at others and these times always coincide with training i.e. cardio or lifting.
But hey you guys wanna do the whole NO carbs, carbs are going to prevent fat loss then finally have some 6-8 hours later, do what ya gotta.
I tried that kinda diet ONCE, and I will never do it again.

Please dont give me bro evidence of this. If you are gonna call me an idiot do it with something to support it. When you can show me the studies that show fasting and even fasting and exercise create muscle catabolism i will gladly retract my statemnt. Until then please refrain from the poor assumptions. Bring in some dexa scans that support your anecdotes even that is better than just outright saying it happens with no support what so ever. Some of your comparisons are quite poor as well. I am speaking of fasting for another 2-6 hours depending on the day. Not going for a week without carbs or food. The closed mindedness of some on here is kinda sad this should be a progressive board. :/ statement like nothing will make me change makes me kinda sad.

 

[ryanbCXG]

This is my thought process... If you are training multiple muscle groups and have a good amount of volume then provide each muscle group with a bolus of EAAs... When it comes to intra workout I'd rather overshoot personally...

I'm training nearly all body parts 4 times per week so I try to ensure I get enough EAAs to allow all groups to recover

Right I agree with having enough building blocks. But really the MPS isnt going to be used during the workout. You wont be buidling right then. You want to overload after but to stimulate the MPS so breakdown doesnt occur during training. And even if it were the case the EAAs could be used to stimulate MPS and have a whole protien for use to build so all the blocks are present......i could also be way off in left field

 

[ajdos]

Please dont give me bro evidence of this. If you are gonna call me an idiot do it with something to support it. When you can show me the studies that show fasting and even fasting and exercise create muscle catabolism i will gladly retract my statemnt. Until then please refrain from the poor assumptions. Bring in some dexa scans that support your anecdotes even that is better than just outright saying it happens with no support what so ever

First off Ryan nowhere did I call you an idiot, so take that buttsore shit the fuck out of my face.
Secondly- how many times in 25 years have I seen the total reversal of so called established science in bodybuilding?? 100? 200? fuck I have lost count.
AS I SAID- my bro-science and I did call it that if you had read the entire post instead of jumping on my ass, is what I have done after learning my own body after 25 years, and Im not a fucking idiot.
I have plenty of experience doing exactly what Im talking about with me and other people and got the desired result AND I said if you want to do it thats fine- wasn't saying you were wrong and I was right- I was explaining myself and why I believe why I do what I do for myself.
You don't like it, good, but the science doesn't always stand- or do we forget that DAT was the one who said CJCDAC was not the way to go but now has been accepted as the standard for peptide usage in that category.
Funny how science was wrong?
Get all the studies you want you get 10-Ill do a data-mine and find 10 that have 100% opposite conclusions.

 

[flexdurden]

Right I agree with having enough building blocks. But really the MPS isnt going to be used during the workout. You wont be buidling right then. You want to overload after but to stimulate the MPS so breakdown doesnt occur during training. And even if it were the case the EAAs could be used to stimulate MPS and have a whole protien for use to build so all the blocks are present......i could also be way off in left field

I actually combine EAAs with hydrolyzed whey and pepto pro... I start consuming the drink before training so that all of the blocks so to speak are present and available... All I have to go by is my own results and this seems to be working for me... Could I get away with using less, maybe, but I like this how it is

 

[G.I.Bro]

I'm always confused by this topic. People talk about doing fasted cardio, yet slam BCAA (or EAA) before and during. BCAA is HIGHLY insulinogenic. You are spiking insulin and thus, defeating a large majority of the reason for doing fasted cardio, right? These seems to be a disconnect in people's thinking again and again.

BCAA Prior to fasted morning cardio = bad, the presence of the insulin spike will inhibit lipolysis (the entire point of being fasted). BCAA will spike insulin as much as pure glucose (look it up). It may also be ideal to refrain from BCAA or carbs for a little while after cardio if MAXIMAL fat loss is the goal. This is why you see people recommend a carbless PWO meal with PRO/fat. BCAA/CHO ingestion immediately after cardio can reduce lipolysis and FFA utilization. Again, this would be if fat loss is the ONLY main focus as we all know great reasons to spike insulin PWO for growth. So most people arent really doing "fasted" cardio from a hormonal perspective. They are just doing "hungry as fuck" cardio which is less than optimal and has been shown not to burn more calories over the course of a day.

Someone correct me if my logic/understanding is off here. But how is everyone considering themselves doing FASTED (i.e. quieted insulin) cardio/training when they spike insulin with BCAA before fucking doing it? You are NOT going catabolic from training fasted, so why spike the insulin? Everyone thinks they are protecting their muscle from loss with BCAA during their cardio window. This is a fucking Bro MYTH. Its not a harsh enough environment to make you go catabolic in that short time. If fat loss is the primary target, I say remove BCAA before/during this session and keep insulin baseline as to maintain maximum lipolysis and FFA oxidation. If fat loss is not the #1 goal (i.e. a gaining phase), then obviously there are many great reasons to have high insulin and BCAA in your blood during training/cardio.

Related notes:

1. Peptides + BCAA Co-administration = OK, the presence of an insulin spike will not inhibit GH release, and may in fact enhance it. BCAA will spike insulin as much as glucose can but its not an issue here.
2. GH + BCAA = no brainer, insulin + exogenous GH = fantastic. GH + actual injected Insulin is even better.
3. BCAA Prior to fasted morning cardio = bad, the presence of the insulin spike will inhibit lipolysis.
4. Peptides + BCAA POST/intra Workout = good, you get the PWO surge of GH and the synergistic insulin spike. After the 15-20 min peptide administration window, follow with PRO + CHO meal. If fat loss is the goal, you may opt for carbless PWO.
5. Blood glucose from ingesting sugars/carbs is what will potentially inhibit GH release when using peptides, not insulin alone. Insulin and blood glucose are two distinct things in terms of how they effect things. This is why you dont want to eat right before or during peptide injection because you will have higher glood glucose and/or fatty acids in blood.
5. Fat (or fatty acids) in blood will inhibit GH release from peptides moreso than the presence of glucose. Insulin alone is not a major offender.
6. The slight blood glucose increase from BCAA is probably insignificant on peptide administration and GH release. But it still spikes insulin significantly which can influence lipolysis.


By all means, correct me where my understanding and logic is off. I am not saying I know it all but the stuff I see here daily conflicts and I'm always wondering if my understanding is off. So I am genuinely asking to be educated here. For some reason everything is simple except when it comes to the intricacies of blood glucose, insulin and their effects on other processes.

 

[ryanbCXG]

I actually combine EAAs with hydrolyzed whey and pepto pro... I start consuming the drink before training so that all of the blocks so to speak are present and available... All I have to go by is my own results and this seems to be working for me... Could I get away with using less, maybe, but I like this how it is

Yep I know you too loosely follow your log and posts. It was more as discussion points than anything

 

[flexdurden]

Yep I know you too loosely follow your log and posts. It was more as discussion points than anything

And I know that... You aren't a dick lol even if I was completely off my rocker you'd say something but do it respectfully haha

I'll continue to play around with ingredients and dosages as I don't really know what is best and what is most cost effective... To me, that's one of the most interesting parts about training

 

[ryanbCXG]

First off Ryan nowhere did I call you an idiot, so take that buttsore shit the fuck out of my face.
Secondly- how many times in 25 years have I seen the total reversal of so called established science in bodybuilding?? 100? 200? fuck I have lost count.
AS I SAID- my bro-science and I did call it that if you had read the entire post instead of jumping on my ass, is what I have done after learning my own body after 25 years, and Im not a fucking idiot.
I have plenty of experience doing exactly what Im talking about with me and other people and got the desired result AND I said if you want to do it thats fine- wasn't saying you were wrong and I was right- I was explaining myself and why I believe why I do what I do for myself.
You don't like it, good, but the science doesn't always stand- or do we forget that DAT was the one who said CJCDAC was not the way to go but now has been accepted as the standard for peptide usage in that category.
Funny how science was wrong?
Get all the studies you want you get 10-Ill do a data-mine and find 10 that have 100% opposite conclusions.

Lol on your ass ok I guess you aren't butt hurt please take a deep breath and relax. And I did read your post and called it what you did and what it is broscience. I've never said I do anything. Reading comprehension please. I prefer to use a greater than n=1 experience unless I specify. The n=1 argument is always fun but is only truly relavant to that person.

I think you also missed why cjc dac is not used or supported by dat. Maybe you should go back over those ideas again. It seem like you missed the boat if you think he was against it because of it not working.

If you are truly going to read studies one must learn to actually read them not just look at the abstract. Critically reading studies is not fun IMO. It's hard work

 

[ryanbCXG]

And I know that... You aren't a dick lol even if I was completely off my rocker you'd say something but do it respectfully haha

I'll continue to play around with ingredients and dosages as I don't really know what is best and what is most cost effective... To me, that's one of the most interesting parts about training

Sometimes I realize a joke can come across wrong. Internet has a way of that. Real life is better for my sarcasm lol.

Experimentation is the name of the game.

 

[ryanbCXG]

I'm always confused by this topic. People talk about doing fasted cardio, yet slam BCAA (or EAA) before and during. BCAA is HIGHLY insulinogenic. You are spiking insulin and thus, defeating a large majority of the reason for doing fasted cardio, right? These seems to be a disconnect in people's thinking again and again.

BCAA Prior to fasted morning cardio = bad, the presence of the insulin spike will inhibit lipolysis (the entire point of being fasted). BCAA will spike insulin as much as pure glucose (look it up). It may also be ideal to refrain from BCAA or carbs for a little while after cardio if MAXIMAL fat loss is the goal. This is why you see people recommend a carbless PWO meal with PRO/fat. BCAA/CHO ingestion immediately after cardio can reduce lipolysis and FFA utilization. Again, this would be if fat loss is the ONLY main focus as we all know great reasons to spike insulin PWO for growth. So most people arent really doing "fasted" cardio from a hormonal perspective. They are just doing "hungry as fuck" cardio which is less than optimal and has been shown not to burn more calories over the course of a day.

Someone correct me if my logic/understanding is off here. But how is everyone considering themselves doing FASTED (i.e. quieted insulin) cardio/training when they spike insulin with BCAA before fucking doing it? You are NOT going catabolic from training fasted, so why spike the insulin? Everyone thinks they are protecting their muscle from loss with BCAA during their cardio window. This is a fucking Bro MYTH. Its not a harsh enough environment to make you go catabolic in that short time. If fat loss is the primary target, I say remove BCAA before/during this session and keep insulin baseline as to maintain maximum lipolysis and FFA oxidation. If fat loss is not the #1 goal (i.e. a gaining phase), then obviously there are many great reasons to have high insulin and BCAA in your blood during training/cardio.

Related notes:

1. Peptides + BCAA Co-administration = OK, the presence of an insulin spike will not inhibit GH release, and may in fact enhance it. BCAA will spike insulin as much as glucose can but its not an issue here.
2. GH + BCAA = no brainer, insulin + exogenous GH = fantastic. GH + actual injected Insulin is even better.
3. BCAA Prior to fasted morning cardio = bad, the presence of the insulin spike will inhibit lipolysis.
4. Peptides + BCAA POST/intra Workout = good, you get the PWO surge of GH and the synergistic insulin spike. After the 15-20 min peptide administration window, follow with PRO + CHO meal. If fat loss is the goal, you may opt for carbless PWO.
5. Blood glucose from ingesting sugars/carbs is what will potentially inhibit GH release when using peptides, not insulin alone. Insulin and blood glucose are two distinct things in terms of how they effect things. This is why you dont want to eat right before or during peptide injection because you will have higher glood glucose and/or fatty acids in blood.
5. Fat (or fatty acids) in blood will inhibit GH release from peptides moreso than the presence of glucose. Insulin alone is not a major offender.
6. The slight blood glucose increase from BCAA is probably insignificant on peptide administration and GH release. But it still spikes insulin significantly which can influence lipolysis.


By all means, correct me where my understanding and logic is off. I am not saying I know it all but the stuff I see here daily conflicts and I'm always wondering if my understanding is off. So I am genuinely asking to be educated here. For some reason everything is simple except when it comes to the intricacies of blood glucose, insulin and their effects on other processes.

Thank you for bringing this up I didn't want to seem like an ass and pick at that as well. You summarized things well

 

[ajdos]

Lol on your ass ok I guess you aren't butt hurt please take a deep breath and relax. And I did read your post and called it what you did and what it is broscience. I've never said I do anything. Reading comprehension please. I prefer to use a greater than n=1 experience unless I specify. The n=1 argument is always fun but is only truly relavant to that person.

I think you also missed why cjc dac is not used or supported by dat. Maybe you should go back over those ideas again. It seem like you missed the boat if you think he was against it because of it not working.

If you are truly going to read studies one must learn to actually read them not just look at the abstract. Critically reading studies is not fun IMO. It's hard work

I read plenty buddy boy thats the thing in bodybuilding you science nerds can't understand its too abstract and fluid, you can't pin it down and say aha! heres the answer because there are way too many different outcomes and you know it, and like I said I labeled my own post 'broscience' but its funny how much bro science the old guys used and it worked and later on some of it was even proven to be real science.
But hey your right, read all the pub med shit you want, heres a study conducted by yours truly Mr Ass-sore.

Starting weight April 6 -252 estimated body fat ~22%
Current updated weight as of last week 262 estimated body fat ~12%.
Thats with NO gear, just peptides.
SO- you want a study there's a real one with a bodybuilder not using gear.
Thats 10+ in muscle gains (or we'll just call it weight since you will split hairs and call water and fat in their too) with a concurrent ~10% loss in bodyfat- eating exactly like I outlined in earlier posts.
So it seems my broscience has some real world results.
Yeah those are results using a human being who is a trained (that is weight trained) individual eating specifically the diet I talked about. This is not some study using Rheses monkey's or rats or other small mammalian creatures that aren't really all the same as us.
Not pub med, nah, just good old fashion trial and error- wow- imagine that.
Oh I suppose since I have no study or control group it will all be dismissed lol.
Yeah buddy Im all good over here, I think you are the one lost needing some science to hold onto like a security blanket when the lights go out.

 

[cm]

This is a fucking Bro MYTH. Its not a harsh enough environment to make you go catabolic in that short time. If fat loss is the primary target, I say remove BCAA before/during this session and keep insulin baseline as to maintain maximum lipolysis and FFA oxidation.
Related notes:

the voice of reason.
stop with all this powder and pills at every turn of the day



pre intra post duing cardio during sleep before sleep when you wake

careful when you go get your mail today, that walk might be catabolic. next we will have something to take before we do yard work because you might sacrifice muscle when you cut your grass or shovel your snow

 

[ajdos]

Oh and Ryan I do apologize for my harsh response, I have nothing personal against you just didn't like how you came at me.
All in all you always seemed like a good dude to me, just my habit of repsoning unkindly sometimes.
I say this because this thread was going well and I don't want to derail it.
I still stand behind what I say but other wise...
My apologies to you and the others in the thread...I just feel strongly about what Im saying is all.