Experienced users of metformin and or berberine

[DallyRaion]

See this is what I always thought also, im glad you found that. I was always under the impression that met forces the body to uptake the glucose specificaly into the muscle cells...that was why I was doing met 1hour pre-workout with my slin so I could shove as much nutrients into the muscle as possible. Good find...I couldn't remember where I read that I was starting to think maybe I was mistaken.

What were your results like mate and how much insulin were you using? Did you ever experience severe hypo's?

 

[LEX]

Hi Lex,

Well here is what it says about Metformin...

Metformin’s main action is to decrease the overproduction of glucose by the liver, a common problem in prediabetes and type 2 diabetes. The action of metformin helps lower blood sugar levels particularly during the night to keep fasting glucose levels under control, but it also helps control blood glucose throughout the day. Metformin also increases the uptake of glucose by your muscles. Overall, metformin decreases insulin resistance and improves insulin sensitivity, thereby helping the insulin your body still makes work more effectively.

If Metformin increases the uptake of glucose by your muscles and increases insulin sensitivity, wouldn't using it alongside exogenous insulin be an awesome stack for muscle building?

Diabetics who use Metformin can drastically drop the amount of insulin they need to administer so doesn't that mean we can successfully use Metformin and small doses of insulin (4-6iu) and see awesome results as opposed to using no Metformin and having to use large volumes of insulin?

GUYS,
what is the mechanism of insulin working better in your muscle? your overall sensitivity to insulin......right? Answer that question first....why does Met increase sensitivity....Think about it...cause you secrete less of it when you are using metformin..Period.


SO if you improve overall insulin sensitivity yes of course it works better with muscle tissue and all other tissues.
I understand your point and yes if you are using met with or between slin it will allow you to use a smaller amount.....absolutely but WHILE you are running slin you are still decreasing your sensitivity to it with our without Met. So again I don't see the benefit of using them together.
Maybe just at night after slin window is way gone and you want to make sure and drop glucose overnight fasting. Just something I haven't tried.

We also know that Met will somehow inhibit the ingestion of carbs if taken with a meal to some extent...how is that beneficial to then take met before you inject insulin? so you can eat more carbs to overcome Met's effect?

 

[LEX]

A question than guys, i know a few of you have said you use or have used MD GDA or johns new prime nutrition GDA, when he was giving out his Injectable L-carnitine protocol he said he takes 2 of his GDA pre workout with his 10 ius of humalog.

Is that something that is worth doing while running pre workout slin(without L-carnitine). Or would i be fucking with the nutrient shuttling of slin by taking the GDA with it?

That's a great question I would love to get John's reasoning behind it.

 

[DallyRaion]

GUYS,
what is the mechanism of insulin working better in your muscle? your overall sensitivity to insulin......right? Answer that question first....why does Met increase sensitivity....Think about it...cause you secrete less of it when you are using metformin..Period.


SO if you improve overall insulin sensitivity yes of course it works better with muscle tissue and all other tissues.
I understand your point and yes if you are using met with or between slin it will allow you to use a smaller amount.....absolutely but WHILE you are running slin you are still decreasing your sensitivity to it with our without Met. So again I don't see the benefit of using them together.
Maybe just at night after slin window is way gone and you want to make sure and drop glucose overnight fasting. Just something I haven't tried.

We also know that Met will somehow inhibit the ingestion of carbs if taken with a meal to some extent...how is that beneficial to then take met before you inject insulin? so you can eat more carbs to overcome Met's effect?

Great post Lex. I actually missed the obvious when I was going on about my point. Metformin increases insulin sensitivity due to it making the pancreas secrete less insulin.

Injecting exogenous insulin basically will negate all that.

 

[DallyRaion]

A question than guys, i know a few of you have said you use or have used MD GDA or johns new prime nutrition GDA, when he was giving out his Injectable L-carnitine protocol he said he takes 2 of his GDA pre workout with his 10 ius of humalog.

Is that something that is worth doing while running pre workout slin(without L-carnitine). Or would i be fucking with the nutrient shuttling of slin by taking the GDA with it?

When using Na-R-ALA with insulin pre-workout, I was going very hypo. Without Na-R-ALA in the mix I was completely fine which only leads me to believe that GDA's are doing something to your sensitivity when used alongside insulin.

Mixing your point with my earlier point about stacking Metformin along with insulin, it seems it may be a better idea to stack some very good GDA's when using insulin pre-workout, but due to the enhanced sensitivity to insulin, one should be conservative with the insulin dose.

 

[LEX]

When using Na-R-ALA with insulin pre-workout, I was going very hypo. Without Na-R-ALA in the mix I was completely fine which only leads me to believe that GDA's are doing something to your sensitivity when used alongside insulin.

Mixing your point with my earlier point about stacking Metformin along with insulin, it seems it may be a better idea to stack some very good GDA's when using insulin pre-workout, but due to the enhanced sensitivity to insulin, one should be conservative with the insulin dose.

I think Met and a "GDA" should be thought of separately. If you look at ALA it acts on enzymatic pathways that effect the uptake of glucose..Not directly insulin. If that is true and I am just speculating here guys then a GDA would make sense to take pre works with or without slin.. different actions as Met.
I don't think of Met and a GDA. Thats why everyone expects you to go hypo on MET and it just wont happen. But with a GDA it can...
Thoughts?

 

[jrock00123]

I don't like the "GDA" category because there are really two different and competing types of substances grouped together. Some substances like ALA, banaba, and berberine improve insulin sensitivity by provide a similar function (assisting glucose in cells). Other items such as white kidney bean and bitter melon negatively affect the overall absorption of carbohydrate.

So I guess all of these "dispose" of glucose. But the first category does so by pushing nutrients into cells (by the way, there is no evidence of fat/muscle selectivity) and the second category simply disposes glucose in the toilet.

IIRC, someone above posted that there is evidence that met truly does exhibit selectivity which is very interesting.

 

[DallyRaion]

I think Met and a "GDA" should be thought of separately. If you look at ALA it acts on enzymatic pathways that effect the uptake of glucose..Not directly insulin. If that is true and I am just speculating here guys then a GDA would make sense to take pre works with or without slin.. different actions as Met.
I don't think of Met and a GDA. Thats why everyone expects you to go hypo on MET and it just wont happen. But with a GDA it can...
Thoughts?

Completely agree with you. Metformin has never made me feel hypo but GDA's such as Na-R-ALA and AD Matador have.

Na-R-ALA I found especially powerful. Was sweating bullets lol.

 

[Stewie]

Completely agree with you. Metformin has never made me feel hypo but GDA's such as Na-R-ALA and AD Matador have.

Na-R-ALA I found especially powerful. Was sweating bullets lol.

If you don't mind me asking, what brand and where'd you buy your Na-r-ALA from?

Thanks

 

[gomit]

I think Met and a "GDA" should be thought of separately. If you look at ALA it acts on enzymatic pathways that effect the uptake of glucose..Not directly insulin. If that is true and I am just speculating here guys then a GDA would make sense to take pre works with or without slin.. different actions as Met.
I don't think of Met and a GDA. Thats why everyone expects you to go hypo on MET and it just wont happen. But with a GDA it can...
Thoughts?

John uses his GDA pre workout with and without slin year round, and also said he could drop his slin dose way down when using it!

 

[DallyRaion]

If you don't mind me asking, what brand and where'd you buy your Na-r-ALA from?

Thanks

Hi Stewie, I'm from the UK and used this supplier mate: Bulk Supplements Direct - Na-R-ALA

 

[LEX]

John uses his GDA pre workout with and without slin year round, and also said he could drop his slin dose way down when using it!

I see that GDA's would make a difference as they affect the uptake of glucose..

If you exclude Met and B from being called "gda" cause they just aren't

 

[MR. BMJ]

Has the study of Met interacting with carbohydrate absorption been posted on the site at all? Can somebody post that study up if possible? Thanks

I work with diabetics in a clinical setting who are on Met, and many claim to go hypo if they take too much. Just throwing that out...i'm sure there are other factors involved with them.

I haven't used Met since the 90's, so i'll have to try it again. It was by RX for somebody else that just gave it to me. After ALA/r-ALA came out, I just stuck with it because of it's easy accessibility without a rx, and also I like it's benefits on the liver.

 

[Stewie]

I see that GDA's would make a difference as they affect the uptake of glucose..

If you exclude Met and B from being called "gda" cause they just aren't

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe under different states MET acts in a glucose disposal manner, such as normal insulin levels. With hyperinsulinaemia, if I remember correctly, MET doesn't act upon glucose disposal.

 

[Stewie]

Has the study of Met interacting with carbohydrate absorption been posted on the site at all? Can somebody post that study up if possible? Thanks

I work with diabetics in a clinical setting who are on Met, and many claim to go hypo if they take too much. Just throwing that out...i'm sure there are other factors involved with them.

I haven't used Met since the 90's, so i'll have to try it again. It was by RX for somebody else that just gave it to me. After ALA/r-ALA came out, I just stuck with it because of it's easy accessibility without a rx, and also I like it's benefits on the liver.

My wife has reactive hypoglycemia. She's gone hypo on MET a few times. This was after fairly decent carb meal with 500 mg of MET. I mentioned this a few years ago in a thread about reactive hypoglycemia.

I know a lot of people within the BB communities don't believe it can happen, yet I've witnessed a few times with my wife.

 

[ADRiLASh]

Do you take your slin pre-workout?

Yep, 8-10ui Novorapid

 

[dragonfire101]

My wife has reactive hypoglycemia. She's gone hypo on MET a few times. This was after fairly decent carb meal with 500 mg of MET. I mentioned this a few years ago in a thread about reactive hypoglycemia.

I know a lot of people within the BB communities don't believe it can happen, yet I've witnessed a few times with my wife.

On the short acting or long acting metformin? I can see that happening with the shorting acting one and not eating enough carbs with it.

 

[Stewie]

On the short acting or long acting metformin? I can see that happening with the shorting acting one and not eating enough carbs with it.

With regular metformin.

With her being reactive and going hypo on MET definitely differs than someone without reactive hypoglycemia. I should have made mention of that in my earlier post. Nevertheless, it can happen to a certain subset of individuals, such as my wife.

I love her to death, yet it upsets me when she doesn't listen to my advice on certain food choices. Especially around the holidays.

 

[LEX]

With regular metformin.

With her being reactive and going hypo on MET definitely differs than someone without reactive hypoglycemia. I should have made mention of that in my earlier post. Nevertheless, it can happen to a certain subset of individuals, such as my wife.

I love her to death, yet it upsets me when she doesn't listen to my advice on certain food choices. Especially around the holidays.

what do you suppose the mechanism is of the Met doing that Stewie?
this was just with high carb meals? but could she go hypo with Met in a situation without a high carb meal?

Could it be that the met has lowered her insulin sensitivity and after a non typical high carb meal she secreted an "normal" amount of insulin that turns out to be a little too much causing the hypo?

I just thought we really knew 3 things
-blocks some digestion of carbs if taken with meals
-liver making glucose
-increasing insulin sensitivity (in both Hypothal and all other tissues)

 

[Cerberus777]

GUYS,
what is the mechanism of insulin working better in your muscle? your overall sensitivity to insulin......right? Answer that question first....why does Met increase sensitivity....Think about it...cause you secrete less of it when you are using metformin..Period.


SO if you improve overall insulin sensitivity yes of course it works better with muscle tissue and all other tissues.
I understand your point and yes if you are using met with or between slin it will allow you to use a smaller amount.....absolutely but WHILE you are running slin you are still decreasing your sensitivity to it with our without Met. So again I don't see the benefit of using them together.
Maybe just at night after slin window is way gone and you want to make sure and drop glucose overnight fasting. Just something I haven't tried.

We also know that Met will somehow inhibit the ingestion of carbs if taken with a meal to some extent...how is that beneficial to then take met before you inject insulin? so you can eat more carbs to overcome Met's effect?

I can only do 500mg of met any more upsets my stomach, so take my experience with a grain of salt.

The above is how I use it. And if I use slin. The goal is to lower blood glucose after intra/post workout and slin has done it's job.

Ive used slin pre workout, and added berberine instead of more slin to keep the same effects going.