Dave SOUNDS OFF On Insulin

[gotgame]

Thank you for weighing in. I really have a hard time believing visceral fat is the first to go. That makes absolutely no sense at all to me. I'm a firm believer in VAT being the issue and directly caused by insulin resistance.

Do you happen to see their bloodwork? Interested in signs of insulin resistance.

Yes insulin resistance over a long period of time, fat cells multipling. making more insulin resisitence, stretching the abdominal wall... GH and insulin contributing and a host of other things.

And before someone asks me to start posting up pics im not going to go back into the EMR and get the DICOM images and then try to blur them out. Not gonna happen. I cant even do that anymore where i am currently at unless is burn a CD from the film library as we dont use GE pacs here. What i will do is next time i see it ill take a shot with my cell phone and crop out the patient info. Ill even label the visceral fat for all to see but its as clear as night and day and i sometimes cant believe we are still having this discussion. I remember ppl guessing about this this 15 years ago and it guess its been perpetuated. Enough already. Yes GH will cause a few % of organ growth but not even enough for me to call it enlarged on a scan and certainly not enough to cause the protruding abdomens we see on stage and in the gym.


As a side note, visceral fat accumulates in many as we age. years of resistance catching up. Its just the bb lifestyle the way it currently is accelerates things. I personally love a CT scan with a ton of visceral fat..i can read it much easier.

To answer your blood work question. We actually did check there blood work sometimes but i was never really looking at glucose, we almost always checked HDL as most of the guys on AAS had HDL's in like the teens or low 20's. We used to then joke about how much there coronary calcium score was. We got pretty good.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Here was a great thread on this topic 6 years ago. BigA kind of confirms what gotgame stated in that you can be lean, but still have higher VAT levels. I'd probably change my opinion that ALA is better than Met, but maybe a combo of both together is best. Some interesting compounds mentioned in that thread, along with the ones that GG mentioned, including Telmisartan.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...m/63300-thoughts-about-distended-bellies.html

 

[gotgame]

Here was a great thread on this topic 6 years ago. BigA kind of confirms what gotgame stated in that you can be lean, but still have higher VAT levels. I'd probably change my opinion that ALA is better than Met, but maybe a combo of both together is best. Some interesting compounds mentioned in that thread, along with the ones that GG mentioned, including Telmisartan.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...m/63300-thoughts-about-distended-bellies.html

Yes I personally think that R- ALA is a great supplement. Anyone who knows my posts understands that im always skeptical of supplments but R-ALA has many benefits. I probably should have mentioned both. I used to take r-ALA ( glucorell) but been taking Met for a bit mainly because its so inexpensive.

And before we start talking about GW50156 i would NOT recommend it at this time due to conflicting cancer data. Yes i believe it would work. NO i would not recommend taking it. Ive already debated the data. it is plausible by MOA that it could cause tumorgenisis and mets in some types of cancer based on the limited data we have and its not a risk worth taking.

 

[b_cornelius]

b, I don't mean to put him out there but I remember a post by dante a while back talking about how waist trainers/corsets really do work. he wasn't recommending them though. they are getting more and more popular these days and dante was one of the first guys way back to talk about them.

loved reading his posts and newsletter writings on structural adaption back in the day when it came to shoulder width, the ribcage/serratus, etc.....

not to kiss dante's ass to much but everything he's ever recommended that I've tried, has worked quite well so I tend to listen when he mentions something.

Good to know. I've always sort of ignored a lot of the details of the waist trainer discussions.

I know Dante is the tops, and he's probably unconsciously influenced me on the subject, even when I wasn't directly concerned about it.

 

[G.I.Bro]

I glanced at a few posts on this thread discussing visceral fat and some dont believe the distension is due to that.. sorry guys but you are incorrect. In some cases it is multifactorial but id say 80% of the cases ive seen are due to large accumulations of visceral fat.

I will say that again for clarity. Ballparking it but over 80% of the cases ive seen were due to visceral fat.


Another 15% were due to visceral fat and diastasis of the rectus which probably came from as someone mentioned above overeating, bulking and years of internal stress stretching it. But they still had a lot of visceral fat.

The other 5% or so did have some organ enlargement. Most often the liver in CC direction along with some visceral fat.


I dont know how i can be more clear. Ive seen many CT scans and MRI with in and out of phase imaging of bbers. I mean i worked in NJ/NYC and southern cali. Body large bb communities and guys came in all the time. very little subq fat( i can see that clearly on the scan) yet protuding abdomens. Its not even a question... there was a very large amount of visceral fat.


i made a post on WCBB about some ways to combat it. The very short of it would be as some ppl mentioned above working on your abdominal wall, dont over eat, limit GH/slin usage, mixture of HIIT and Low intensity cardio, metfromin, telmisartan and other diet modifications.


I really hope we can put this to bed. The vast majority of bbers due not have organ growth to the extent that is causing the distension ( dont bother posting a few cases studies..im talkign about the majority), for the majority it is diastasis of rectus with VISCERAL ( or visceral fat alone) fat accumulation. Period.

Thank you. VAT was always my first hypothesis but I'd started to talk myself out of it and question it based on discussion and some other opinions I value. This makes more sense to me anyway because I had elevated IGF-1 for a long time with GH use and never noticed a difference in distention. Literally one winter/bulk phase of slin use and massive eating and I noticed more distention and tightness in my gut (and also my best gains ever). But the gut tightness was abrupt and alarming. When I dieted way down in summer, it still remained (but to a lesser degree) and this is when I began looking into this deeper. What's confusing is that VAT should technically diet away pretty easy, before subq stores. That part is perplexing. But I have never been sold on organ growth directly from gh/IGF-1 because the phenomenon is just not in the observed medical literature relating to side effects of gh (aside from some studies directly dealing with heart size increases from AAS/GH). It would be an undeniable fact recognized clinically if it made intestines and other digestive organs grow a bunch and its just not, as you pointed out.

I don't know how to reduce stubborn VAT/distention other than long term good old fashioned dieting (mass loss) and strict ab wall training along with metformin and a focus on insulin sensitivity. I may start testing glucose more. I probably will not play with slin anymore. I just don't need it.

 

[G.I.Bro]

Here was a great thread on this topic 6 years ago. BigA kind of confirms what gotgame stated in that you can be lean, but still have higher VAT levels. I'd probably change my opinion that ALA is better than Met, but maybe a combo of both together is best. Some interesting compounds mentioned in that thread, along with the ones that GG mentioned, including Telmisartan.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...m/63300-thoughts-about-distended-bellies.html

It is visceral fat. I just had another hernia operation less than 2 months ago.

The surgeon told me that my visceral fat was between 2" and 3" thick! Yet, I have low enough external fat that you can see my abs. But if I relax the gut, I look pregnant.

Interesting... and there may be more at play than just insulin use for stubborn VAT. I don't even know if Big A attributed his to insulin use.

Everything I read indicates that under normal hormonal conditions, VAT should diet as easily, if not before, subQ, but this phenomenon is very common in the bb community in which hormonal conditions are a wild card.

 

[RamboStallone]

I thought this was interesting.

There is a condition known as Cushing's syndrome where the patient gets an distended abdomen from visceral fat...its caused by high levels of cortisol (hypercortisolism) in the blood....so maybe with high levels of AAS it functionally causes a similar imbalance thus causing an increase in abdominal fat.
But I tend to lean toward the fact that, even though one is eating clean and the rest of the body is lean... the extra abdominal fat is simply a sign of to many calories, regardless of whether they are protein, fat or carb calories. And of course, it becomes more noticeable with age.
Simply put the guys with big bellies on stage eat to much. Belly( visceral) fat is the last to go.

 

[Stewie]

I thought this was interesting.

Pretty rare in males, more-so related to females. Even then the population rate is around 2-4:1,000,000.

 

[warlock]

Russian sport pharmacologists have been supplemented insulin in a dose 1 IU per 70 kg body weight every third day only, so Milos and the rest of the bodybuilders protocol is totally wrong.

What kind of results have they been getting? Is the 1iu taken after training?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Russian sport pharmacologists have been supplemented insulin in a dose 1 IU per 70 kg body weight every third day only, so Milos and the rest of the bodybuilders protocol is totally wrong.

Just because Russian sport pharmacologists do that doesn't mean it is the "right" or most "effective" way for bodybuilders.

1 iu for every 154 lbs of bodyweight taken every 3rd day is basically nothing. That dose is nearly completely ineffective. For the average trainer, that would be like taking only 1-1.5 iu every 3 days. Good luck with that. You won't notice anything. The human body naturally makes WAY more insulin than that every day, even in children.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I glanced at a few posts on this thread discussing visceral fat and some dont believe the distension is due to that.. sorry guys but you are incorrect. In some cases it is multifactorial but id say 80% of the cases ive seen are due to large accumulations of visceral fat.

I will say that again for clarity. Ballparking it but over 80% of the cases ive seen were due to visceral fat.


Another 15% were due to visceral fat and diastasis of the rectus which probably came from as someone mentioned above overeating, bulking and years of internal stress stretching it. But they still had a lot of visceral fat.

The other 5% or so did have some organ enlargement. Most often the liver in CC direction along with some visceral fat.


I dont know how i can be more clear. Ive seen many CT scans and MRI with in and out of phase imaging of bbers. I mean i worked in NJ/NYC and southern cali. Body large bb communities and guys came in all the time. very little subq fat( i can see that clearly on the scan) yet protuding abdomens. Its not even a question... there was a very large amount of visceral fat.


i made a post on WCBB about some ways to combat it. The very short of it would be as some ppl mentioned above working on your abdominal wall, dont over eat, limit GH/slin usage, mixture of HIIT and Low intensity cardio, metfromin, telmisartan and other diet modifications.


I really hope we can put this to bed. The vast majority of bbers due not have organ growth to the extent that is causing the distension ( dont bother posting a few cases studies..im talkign about the majority), for the majority it is diastasis of rectus with VISCERAL ( or visceral fat alone) fat accumulation. Period.

Are you referring to off-season bodybuilders, or pre-contest...because there's a BIG difference between the two. Like I said above, I DO believe visceral fat is a factor in off-season bodybuilders; particularly the ones with insulin resistance. However, I think it's FAR less of a problem in contest ready bodybuilders. Visceral fat is the first fat to be lost when someone starts dieting, so it doesn't make sense that a large amount of it would till be hanging around by the time they hit 3% BF. In order for this to happen they would have to be carrying a LOT of visceral fat to begin with--far more than normal. Furthermore, insulin sensitivity tends to improve greatly during contest prep (which will also help reduce visceral fat), so by the time they hit the stage their insulin sensitivity is usually way better than it was during the off-season.

I like your post, but I take issue with the "percentages", as almost EVERY case of distension in bodybuilders is multi-factorial...and visceral fat usually isn't the most significant factor. Anyone who has been around high-level bodybuilders for a while knows that there are often MANY factors involved in distension, especially during the off-season when food intake is high and insulin resistance is more likely to occur.

For example, food intake is, in my opinion, the #1 cause of off-season distension in bodybuilders. The evidence for this takes place every day. You see, most of these guys wake up in the morning with a flat or near flat stomach, and by evening...or even mid-day...they look like they are well into their 2nd trimester. I've experienced it in myself and I have seen it happen in literally hundred's of others. Just go ask these guys what happens to their stomach as the day goes on. The vast majority will tell you that food intake is without any doubt a huge factor in distension....and the proof comes every day as we watch the stomach balloon further outward with each successive meal.

This isn't as big of an issue for the smaller guys, but for the bigger guys who need to push large amounts of food daily, it is a MAJOR (the most significant) cause of distension during the off-season. This is undeniable and anyone who denies it is completely inexperienced when it comes to high-level bodybuilders and the effect diet can have on the midsection. Since our level of visceral fat doesn't change throughout the day, food intake is the only logical explanation for why so many guys start out with a flat stomach in the morning and end up with a turtle shell by nightfall.

There are many other factors involved as well, at least 6-8 common ones, that take place in bodybuilders to varying degrees. Most bodybuilders are experiencing several of them simultaneously...and when combined with massive food intake, it is going to result in significant distension.

Interesting observations, though. I would assume that of the bodybuilders you've seen who did have significant visceral fat build-up, they probably had pretty bad insulin resistance as a result of abusing GH and insulin (and possibly a less than ideal diet).

 

[MR. BMJ]

Are you referring to off-season bodybuilders, or pre-contest...because there's a BIG difference between the two. Like I said above, I DO believe visceral fat is a factor in off-season bodybuilders; particularly the ones with insulin resistance. However, I think it's FAR less of a problem in contest ready bodybuilders. Visceral fat is the first fat to be lost when someone starts dieting, so it doesn't make sense that a large amount of it would till be hanging around by the time they hit 3% BF. In order for this to happen they would have to be carrying a LOT of visceral fat to begin with--far more than normal. Furthermore, insulin sensitivity tends to improve greatly during contest prep (which will also help reduce visceral fat), so by the time they hit the stage their insulin sensitivity is usually way better than it was during the off-season.

I like your post, but I take issue with the "percentages", as almost EVERY case of distension in bodybuilders is multi-factorial...and visceral fat usually isn't the most significant factor. Anyone who has been around high-level bodybuilders for a while knows that there are often MANY factors involved in distension, especially during the off-season when food intake is high and insulin resistance is more likely to occur.

For example, food intake is, in my opinion, the #1 cause of off-season distension in bodybuilders. The evidence for this takes place every day. You see, most of these guys wake up in the morning with a flat or near flat stomach, and by evening...or even mid-day...they look like they are well into their 2nd trimester. I've experienced it in myself and I have seen it happen in literally hundred's of others. Just go ask these guys what happens to their stomach as the day goes on. The vast majority will tell you that food intake is without any doubt a huge factor in distension....and the proof comes every day as we watch the stomach balloon further outward with each successive meal.

This isn't as big of an issue for the smaller guys, but for the bigger guys who need to push large amounts of food daily, it is a MAJOR (the most significant) cause of distension during the off-season. This is undeniable and anyone who denies it is completely inexperienced when it comes to high-level bodybuilders and the effect diet can have on the midsection. Since our level of visceral fat doesn't change throughout the day, food intake is the only logical explanation for why so many guys start out with a flat stomach in the morning and end up with a turtle shell by nightfall.

There are many other factors involved as well, at least 6-8 common ones, that take place in bodybuilders to varying degrees. Most bodybuilders are experiencing several of them simultaneously...and when combined with massive food intake, it is going to result in significant distension.

Interesting observations, though. I would assume that of the bodybuilders you've seen who did have significant visceral fat build-up, they probably had pretty bad insulin resistance as a result of abusing GH and insulin (and possibly a less than ideal diet).

Those are good points, Mike. I think the truth lies along both your and GG's posts. It'd be hard to see much VAT at really low BF%'s, and I'm interested in hearing GG's experiences on whether these guys he treated were just big and lean or contest lean at like 3-4% BF. I agree (and think GG stated it) that this is more than likely multi-factoral as well.

Outside of VAT and everything else involved, I really think it is almost impossible to have a small waist at much larger sizes, I think it comes with the territory....much to what DC stated. The age needs to be factored in to some degree as well.

 

[concreteguy]

I don't get it. I'm reading through this thread and it's a virtual who's who of supplementation. Yet not one guy has called it the way it's really being done.

This from an Olympia competitor:
Inject 20iu of Humalin R. That's the slin with two distinct peaks.
Drink 16oz of real OJ with 20 grams of Glutamine powder mixed into it.

Then you walk away and forget you ever did it. This and this alone is enough to completely off set the slin. You can add meals in between these windows but it's important to let the OJ and Glutamine do it's thing. Other gurus have written close to this same thing but they add tons of calories to this program when all that's needed is OJ and Glutamine.

But the trick is to hammer this mix three and four times a day at least three to four times a week. I would also run 1500mgs Met a day during these runs.

Zero distention and you can even do this growing into a show. You can modulate fat and the rate of growth by the foods between slin windows

Now I'm sure you sofa and couch worriers are going to sit there and reason this out in a retards way of thinking and say "no way" "that will never work". And ya know what, there is no saving you guys. But for you guys that are willing to just do what the big boys are doing and grow (THIS IS IT).

Pound hgh and IGF-LR3 into the mix and then your cooking with gas bro. But you guys want to fly budget, just slin will work JUST FINE!

Now think this through, If just OJ and Glutamine will off set the slin. Anything you pound down after that = distention and fat. So let the OJ and glutamine work in the slin window.

*Disclaimer* Always start with less slin but at least 10iu with this mix in these amounts. Safely work your way up. If for any reason you would start felling hypo ((( DRINK a LITTLE MORE OJ))). So simple it's stupid.

Now look guys. This one post I'm writing is a template to growth on a scale most have never experienced. MERRY CHRISTMAS.

CG

 

[emeric delczeg]

Just because Russian sport pharmacologists do that doesn't mean it is the "right" or most "effective" way for bodybuilders.

1 iu for every 154 lbs of bodyweight taken every 3rd day is basically nothing. That dose is nearly completely ineffective. For the average trainer, that would be like taking only 1-1.5 iu every 3 days. Good luck with that. You won't notice anything. The human body naturally makes WAY more insulin than that every day, even in children.

Well, I respect your opinion. But yes you will notice the difference. This protocol was used by Soviet and East Germany national weight lifting team members.

Many of the leading sports scientists and coaches from the former Soviet Union, East Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania was and still using this protocol.

Also Victor Conte used a similar protocol with great results.

You need to try it out.

 

[emeric delczeg]

What kind of results have they been getting? Is the 1iu taken after training?

Braking world record in Olympic weight lifting.

 

[jayl19]

When iv dieted with dnp my midsection is way smaller then when I diet with out it, you guys think the dnp burns some of the visual fat away?

I work in a bakery and I'm a bad binger eater, once I hit 18% bf, that's it, zero weight gain even eating 5k junk on top of my 7 meals, so why not, right!?


Even on a diet I still binge once or twice a week and still drop lbs

I'm noticing my mid section is huge these days, even though I'm lean right now, like big A said, 6 pack on top of a bloated belly, I'm bulking now an trying to just binge once a week so it doesn't get any worse

 

[RamboStallone]

Emeric, are you sure its not 10iu? 1iu will do absolutely nothing, and e3d? Makes no sense at all. What type of insulin are they using? Even if it was long acting, like Lantus, you'd still need a much higher dose. They might be breaking records but that doesn't mean it's from the slin. The protocol basskiller laid out at his site years ago, believe it's called mutants protocol or something, is spot on in my opinion. Slin and gh pre, with lr3 post. They had it right, and all the new data still points in that direction. We are trying to maximize muscle mass, that's why around training is perfect timing in my opinion.

OJ and slin 3-4x a day, sure will put on mass but not good mass for a guy like me. I don't even drink juices with all that sugar. Why use juice sugars when you can use a quality carb? This is exactly what Dave is complaining about lol guys just taking slin to put mass on, any mass....

 

[emeric delczeg]

Emeric, are you sure its not 10iu? 1iu will do absolutely nothing, and e3d? Makes no sense at all. What type of insulin are they using? Even if it was long acting, like Lantus, you'd still need a much higher dose. They might be breaking records but that doesn't mean it's from the slin. The protocol basskiller laid out at his site years ago, believe it's called mutants protocol or something, is spot on in my opinion. Slin and gh pre, with lr3 post. They had it right, and all the new data still points in that direction. We are trying to maximize muscle mass, that's why around training is perfect timing in my opinion.

OJ and slin 3-4x a day, sure will put on mass but not good mass for a guy like me. I don't even drink juices with all that sugar. Why use juice sugars when you can use a quality carb? This is exactly what Dave is complaining about lol guys just taking slin to put mass on, any mass....

No is not 10IU, is no any study backing up this 10 IU ? I don`t go by this mutant protocol.

The range of the Russian pharmacological studies was very wide.

Sport pharmacology is not acknowledged in the USA.

This pharmacologic techniques was use to improve recovery from heavy
training, without causing any negative side effects or damage.

Heavy preparatory training in the resistance developing stage of adaptation can suppress insulin and thyroid activity. This weight lifter were training 2 times per day 3 day per week. They were supplemented in a dose 1 IU per 70 kg body weight every third day, and thyreocomd 20 -50 micrograms a day for 20 days cycle.

Is not my business of how much insulin some bodybuilder use, just sharing some healthy information and I don`t want get in to any argument.

 

[warlock]

No is not 10IU, is no any study backing up this 10 IU ? I don`t go by this mutant protocol.

The range of the Russian pharmacological studies was very wide.

Sport pharmacology is not acknowledged in the USA.

This pharmacologic techniques was use to improve recovery from heavy
training, without causing any negative side effects or damage.

Heavy preparatory training in the resistance developing stage of adaptation can suppress insulin and thyroid activity. This weight lifter were training 2 times per day 3 day per week. They were supplemented in a dose 1 IU per 70 kg body weight every third day, and thyreocomd 20 -50 micrograms a day for 20 days cycle.

Is not my business of how much insulin some bodybuilder use, just sharing some healthy information and I don`t want get in to any argument.

Was the 1iu taken post-training?

By thyreocomd, do you mean t3 or t4?

 

[emeric delczeg]

Was the 1iu taken post-training?

By thyreocomd, do you mean t3 or t4?

After the morning training, no after the 2nd training.