Really Disheartening Fertility News From Doctor

[pimpman]

She truly is the most beautiful thing in the world, my friend. Every time she is sitting there on the couch with me, eating little bites of my chicken and rice and broccoli, and telling me all about Elmo and Blue and Winnie the Pooh, or running to me with her shoes in her hand, saying "Park! Friends!" because she wants me to take her to the playground, I know I am truly blessed.

She saved my life because she makes everything else in my life worthwhile. That's what children can do for you. I'm just grateful for the blessing.

You are blessed bro. Enjoy her because time flies .before you know they all grown up.

I remember when my son use to see blues clue everyday and had the book so he can write in it too lol. And had me say all the words and sign the son lol I miss those days.now his 26 married and in the army

Our youngest is 15 he use to do the same but with the movie cars and with toy story lol.oh the good older days

 

[beast405]

Thanks as always for the input man. I can't believe a fertility doctor wouldn't prescribe you HCG and HMG?? That's nuts.

You mentioned lower frequent doses of FSH have been shown to be better, can you post any link supporting that?

It seems most people think I should just stay the course. The only things I'm considering changing are maybe more frequent FSH dosing as you mentioned if there's support for it, and perhaps I should up my HCG dose from 3x1000iu to 3x2000iu.

I am a little worried that if I bump up the HCG it will make my testosterone and estrogen go up too high. I have a history of heart issues and obviously want to make sure I don't exacerbate that.


I will look into it, thank you. So when you did this, did your semen analysis show zero sperm or were you at least showing some?

I have to say this thread is the first time I'm hearing people say they were not able to regain fertility after years. I really thought it was almost guaranteed with HCG+HMG/FSH.



Man that's crazy.

Now, importantly, when you ran the high dose test, was that right after your 6 months of HCG+HMG without the test? I ask because perhaps the high test did nothing and perhaps it was the HCG+HMG finally kicking in after 7-8 months?



I'm not opposed to clomid, and I'm not trying to be dismissive of people suggesting it, I'm just confused as to how that could possible help when one is already taking gonadotropins (HCG+HMG/FSH) and smart guys like GotGame, Mike Arnold, and doctors say clomid won't benefit on top of taking those. But if it won't hurt then I could.

You mentioned the HCG and HMG worked to get your sperm count up. It went from what to what, and how long did that take?

To be honest I just threw the clomid in because I was like what the hell it can’t hurt lol. It went from 2 million - around 30 million. It took about 4-5 months I believe. But def Hcg and hmg are key ! Also I came off test completely. My testicles are fried though man. They did not grow at all on the protocol and fsh and lh stayed at non detectable levels. Which I’m not conserned about. I know I will have to stay on testosterone the rest of my life anyway.

 

[beast405]

IVF I think costs about $10k or more each try. My wife's brother in law tried 2x I think.

If the problem is 100% you, you could consider using donor sperm. I'm not sure if I could accept that personally, but at least the baby would still be 1/2 your wife's DNA like any baby she'd have.

Our fertility journey cost about $29,000. That included our meds. 1 iui procedure (which didn’t work). 1 ivf with icsi(didn’t work ). And our last ivf with icsi (which finally took).

 

[NEMSZ]

You are assuming AAS shut you down? You have zero evidence of that, while it certainly may have contributed to your issue, you are in denial about the fact that 10-15% of men have fertilities issues, to begin with, and around 40% of those are physical blockage. You said that your relatives have no issues, but that makes zero difference, obviously, infertility isn't passed down genetically, think about it...

Chances are if it was just being shut down from AAS, then the standard protocols everyone has so much success with would be more effective, the fact that these methods aren't effective points to an increased likelihood of an underlying issue, and because those issues are common (10%+ is extremely common), I would highly suspect that possibility.

This is why I would suggest going with protocols that are used for traditional infertility rather than bodybuilder-focused ones.

I'm not trying to be negative, I'm trying to be realistic, to increase your chances of success in the long run.

You’ve said things like this twice in this thread already but not giving much detail, I say because I’m genuinely curious and it drives me nuts when someone glosses over something that’s kinda the point of their conversation lol not trying to come at you...

So by blockages do you mean things like varicose veins in the testes? Or something else??

Also, protocols like what? Can you give examples?

 

[Kaladryn]

You’ve said things like this twice in this thread already but not giving much detail, I say because I’m genuinely curious and it drives me nuts when someone glosses over something that’s kinda the point of their conversation lol not trying to come at you...

So by blockages do you mean things like varicose veins in the testes? Or something else??

Also, protocols like what? Can you give examples?

I mean you could google 'male infertility causes' and probably get all this info on the first hit. Yes, varicose veins are the most common type of blockage. There are three causes, testes, hormones, or blockage. I'm not glossing over anything, I'm pointing out infertility facts, anyone can easily look up those facts for themselves.

Protocols for traditional infertility are ones that a doctor would put you on, protocols for bodybuilders are ones that bodybuilders have used or been told to use.

 

[Needmassquick]

I will add some unfortunate news from last night: There's an endocrinologist around here who knows my urologist, he's younger and seems up to date. We spoke months ago before I started this process, he helps a lot of former AAS/TRT users come off and restore natural levels. I told him what my urologist said and here is his text: "
I agree with him. If after 4 months of therapy the sperm count still is zero, it’s very unlikely that it will ever go up to 15-20 million even a year later. My guess that you might reach few million, enough to do IVF. But there could be exceptions. Continue the treatment and see what happens in next 6 months. I would consider increasing FSH to 150 too.

You can’t increase hcg as your T level is 800-900. Your only option is increasing FSH and see what happens. Most of the time there’s genetic component, frequently a deletion of the chromosome Y and added steroids exposure for many years. Not sure checking the gene testing can help as it’s more academic than practical"

 

[Needmassquick]

Close to zero (azoospermia was my diagnosis) and like I mentioned, the few in there swam in circles.

OK that gives me some hope, thank you. I will continue to look into it.

IVF I think costs about $10k or more each try. My wife's brother in law tried 2x I think.

If the problem is 100% you, you could consider using donor sperm. I'm not sure if I could accept that personally, but at least the baby would still be 1/2 your wife's DNA like any baby she'd have.

Did your wife's brother in law have success after 2x?

My wife and I have discussed this in the past, I couldn't use a sperm donor. We would rather it be equally ours or equally not ours (e.g. adoption). I don't think I'd be comfortable raising a son that was half my wife's and half some other man's. I suppose that could change if I saw she was so heart broken never being able to have her own child but as of now I really don't like the idea.

You are assuming AAS shut you down? You have zero evidence of that, while it certainly may have contributed to your issue, you are in denial about the fact that 10-15% of men have fertilities issues, to begin with, and around 40% of those are physical blockage. You said that your relatives have no issues, but that makes zero difference, obviously, infertility isn't passed down genetically, think about it...

Chances are if it was just being shut down from AAS, then the standard protocols everyone has so much success with would be more effective, the fact that these methods aren't effective points to an increased likelihood of an underlying issue, and because those issues are common (10%+ is extremely common), I would highly suspect that possibility.

This is why I would suggest going with protocols that are used for traditional infertility rather than bodybuilder-focused ones.

I'm not trying to be negative, I'm trying to be realistic, to increase your chances of success in the long run.

I value your input, so thank you. So how would I go about determining that? What else could I be doing at this point if it wasn't AAS? One of the major reasons I assumed it was AAS was because my testicles are half the size they used to be.

I mean you could google 'male infertility causes' and probably get all this info on the first hit. Yes, varicose veins are the most common type of blockage. There are three causes, testes, hormones, or blockage. I'm not glossing over anything, I'm pointing out infertility facts, anyone can easily look up those facts for themselves.

Protocols for traditional infertility are ones that a doctor would put you on, protocols for bodybuilders are ones that bodybuilders have used or been told to use.

Traditional infertility and bodybuilder protocols are pretty similar at this point aren't they? Seems both camps recommend HCG + HMG/FSH

 

[Needmassquick]

To be honest I just threw the clomid in because I was like what the hell it can’t hurt lol. It went from 2 million - around 30 million. It took about 4-5 months I believe. But def Hcg and hmg are key ! Also I came off test completely. My testicles are fried though man. They did not grow at all on the protocol and fsh and lh stayed at non detectable levels. Which I’m not conserned about. I know I will have to stay on testosterone the rest of my life anyway.

Our fertility journey cost about $29,000. That included our meds. 1 iui procedure (which didn’t work). 1 ivf with icsi(didn’t work ). And our last ivf with icsi (which finally took).

Wow! So you had to go through all of that even with your sperm going to 30 million? I thought at 20+ million you could expect natural pregnancy. And even at 30 million they were the same size?

Also it's crazy to me you say your testicles are fried, which I assumes you mean you'll need TRT forever, yet you were able to get up to 30 million, meanwhile I've been on this protocol for 4 months with zero results. We're about $5-6k in so far and I'm sure it will be much greater by the end.

Not to mention we were hoping to eventually have 3-4 kids. If it's going to take this long and this much money even for one that I'm sure 4 is not in the cards and 3 might even be pushing it

 

[maldorf]

OK that gives me some hope, thank you. I will continue to look into it.





Did your wife's brother in law have success after 2x?

My wife and I have discussed this in the past, I couldn't use a sperm donor. We would rather it be equally ours or equally not ours (e.g. adoption). I don't think I'd be comfortable raising a son that was half my wife's and half some other man's. I suppose that could change if I saw she was so heart broken never being able to have her own child but as of now I really don't like the idea.



I value your input, so thank you. So how would I go about determining that? What else could I be doing at this point if it wasn't AAS? One of the major reasons I assumed it was AAS was because my testicles are half the size they used to be.


Traditional infertility and bodybuilder protocols are pretty similar at this point aren't they? Seems both camps recommend HCG + HMG/FSH

The IVF never worked. They adopted and then 1 year later she got pregnant not even trying. The problem in their case was her.

 

[jay_dub]

Good thread here guys, I certainly appreciate all the input and responses from everyone as I'll be going through this process when the time comes and it's been a topic that I've been paying attention to over the years with the future in mind.

Infertility is going to be one hell of an industry in the coming days (obviously it is already but it's NOTHING in comparison to where we're headed as a species). One of those things that no one is talking about yet so many are dealing with. And much of it is stemming from the plastics industry. Phthalates from the packaging that so many foods are wrapped and processed in with no accountability from the food industry and a complete unawareness/ignorance from the general public.

Needmassquick, don't give up hope. Keep the course and keep your head up bro. Easier said than done I know. But I truly believe mindset is another factor that people don't give enough credit to in situations like these.

 

[mr.e01]

I don’t buy his guidance.
2000 iu HCG x 3 days a week
150 iu HMG x 3 days a week
Take that for a few months and it’ll increase significantly unless there is a blockage which you do not have. If you have been taking test for years like most of us, you may need high doses to get the sperm back like for myself.

if you do need to, you can manually extract via surgery, like your doc mentioned. My buddy did that and it worked well, but I don’t think that’s necessary

 

[Needmassquick]

I don’t buy his guidance.
2000 iu HCG x 3 days a week
150 iu HMG x 3 days a week
Take that for a few months and it’ll increase significantly unless there is a blockage which you do not have. If you have been taking test for years like most of us, you may need high doses to get the sperm back like for myself.

if you do need to, you can manually extract via surgery, like your doc mentioned. My buddy did that and it worked well, but I don’t think that’s necessary

What was your experience with that protocol? What did you start with and how high did the sperm count get, in what time period?


The endocrinologist I quoted above (the younger knowledgeable one)...He agreed with the older doc but he did also just text me again saying "Happy to help. And don't worry, IVF is something commonly done nowadays. All they need is a few sperm and this should be easily achieved". So I'm at least still hopeful for that.

I'm going to increase my FSH to 150. This is going to be costing me $2100 per month from the pharmacy but it is what it is.

 

[Flex500]

So I think someone asked but do you know how your fertility health was before steroids? I think someone may have asked, but I might have looked over it. It's not to be doom and gloom but to have the practical conversation that there could have been a problem before steroids.

That's not a knock...most people probably don't get a semen analysis lol. I became oddly obsessive about it once I was married at 25 even though we were years before we wanted a child.

A few have made the point that some men (more than you'd think) have fertility issues so it would be interesting to know if you previously had issues.

 

[NEMSZ]

What was your experience with that protocol? What did you start with and how high did the sperm count get, in what time period?


The endocrinologist I quoted above (the younger knowledgeable one)...He agreed with the older doc but he did also just text me again saying "Happy to help. And don't worry, IVF is something commonly done nowadays. All they need is a few sperm and this should be easily achieved". So I'm at least still hopeful for that.

I'm going to increase my FSH to 150. This is going to be costing me $2100 per month from the pharmacy but it is what it is.

There are other pharmaceutical options that are about 30%-40% the price for the same dose...

 

[maldorf]

One thing about you having a baby, id be glad that the problem isnt with her because I think that is more serious. You probably have a greater chance of success since you just need more sperm. Maybe having them get the sperm surgically is the way to go. I have never heard of that other way they do invitro. Maybe dont count that out. Money could be a problem, I dont think health insurance will pay a dime for it. Loans are really low rates now, worse case scenario you could take out a heloc on your home. Rates are low.

 

[mr.e01]

What was your experience with that protocol? What did you start with and how high did the sperm count get, in what time period?


The endocrinologist I quoted above (the younger knowledgeable one)...He agreed with the older doc but he did also just text me again saying "Happy to help. And don't worry, IVF is something commonly done nowadays. All they need is a few sperm and this should be easily achieved". So I'm at least still hopeful for that.

I'm going to increase my FSH to 150. This is going to be costing me $2100 per month from the pharmacy but it is what it is.

I had literally zero sperm like yourself. I was on 200-300 mg of test for years.
I took off all test and no change over 3-6 months. The fertility doc sent me to a fertility urologist, and they scanned everything and saw no blockages and said I need to start Hcg 1500x3 days a week. I did that over 3 months and it increased my count but was still low. Around <1mil

went on the forums and researched and upped the dose to the above protocol. Kept slamming those doses and it increased to 250 mil. Wife went for egg retrieval and I froze a bunch of vials of sperm. We did IUI a few times and that was a waste of money.

we did IVF two times and the second time worked. My daughter is almost one more We still have another embryo we are going to use again around November.

i bought everything initially from empower pharmacy which wasn’t too expensive, but then since I had to up doses I purchased everything overseas from China and that was the best. The prices are a fraction of the US costs, but you need to take a risk hoping that it is hmg and hcg.

In order to get the sperm count up, you need to blast doses, and that’s what I did. All or nothing and it worked in my case.

 

[NEMSZ]

I had literally zero sperm like yourself. I was on 200-300 mg of test for years.
I took off all test and no change over 3-6 months. The fertility doc sent me to a fertility urologist, and they scanned everything and saw no blockages and said I need to start Hcg 1500x3 days a week. I did that over 3 months and it increased my count but was still low. Around <1mil

went on the forums and researched and upped the dose to the above protocol. Kept slamming those doses and it increased to 250 mil. Wife went for egg retrieval and I froze a bunch of vials of sperm. We did IUI a few times and that was a waste of money.

we did IVF two times and the second time worked. My daughter is almost one more We still have another embryo we are going to use again around November.

i bought everything initially from empower pharmacy which wasn’t too expensive, but then since I had to up doses I purchased everything overseas from China and that was the best. The prices are a fraction of the US costs, but you need to take a risk hoping that it is hmg and hcg.

In order to get the sperm count up, you need to blast doses, and that’s what I did. All or nothing and it worked in my case.

Can I ask, if you got your sperm to 250 million, which is excellent, why couldn’t you all conceive naturally without IVF etc? Just genuinely curious..

I see quite a few guys have to do the same despite regaining fertility..

 

[Needmassquick]

So I think someone asked but do you know how your fertility health was before steroids? I think someone may have asked, but I might have looked over it. It's not to be doom and gloom but to have the practical conversation that there could have been a problem before steroids.

That's not a knock...most people probably don't get a semen analysis lol. I became oddly obsessive about it once I was married at 25 even though we were years before we wanted a child.

A few have made the point that some men (more than you'd think) have fertility issues so it would be interesting to know if you previously had issues.

Yea a couple people have mentioned this. I didn't do a test beforehand. Statistically speaking, I doubt that's the issue but of course it's totally possible. I'm not sure what to do in that case other than get a scan with my doctor.

There are other pharmaceutical options that are about 30%-40% the price for the same dose...

Yes but not legally in the US. I don't trust UGLs. Too many stories of issues there.

I had literally zero sperm like yourself. I was on 200-300 mg of test for years.
I took off all test and no change over 3-6 months. The fertility doc sent me to a fertility urologist, and they scanned everything and saw no blockages and said I need to start Hcg 1500x3 days a week. I did that over 3 months and it increased my count but was still low. Around <1mil

went on the forums and researched and upped the dose to the above protocol. Kept slamming those doses and it increased to 250 mil. Wife went for egg retrieval and I froze a bunch of vials of sperm. We did IUI a few times and that was a waste of money.

we did IVF two times and the second time worked. My daughter is almost one more We still have another embryo we are going to use again around November.

i bought everything initially from empower pharmacy which wasn’t too expensive, but then since I had to up doses I purchased everything overseas from China and that was the best. The prices are a fraction of the US costs, but you need to take a risk hoping that it is hmg and hcg.

In order to get the sperm count up, you need to blast doses, and that’s what I did. All or nothing and it worked in my case.

Wow, you got up to 250 million and still needed to use IVF? Were there issues on your wife's end as well?

Yea like you said I just don't trust the other foreign pharmacies. Too many stories of bunk product, contaminated product, etc.

Empower unfortunately does not have HMG or I'd consider it with them.

 

[mr.e01]

Can I ask, if you got your sperm to 250 million, which is excellent, why couldn’t you all conceive naturally without IVF etc? Just genuinely curious..

I see quite a few guys have to do the same despite regaining fertility..

Yes, good point. However, my sex drive was horrendous. Without the test, it was just a process to have sex. Worst feeling ever! Plus my wife had an inflamed uterus, in which she has to take a steroid and a baby aspirin to improve the blood for to her uterine tissue. We were trying for about two years and the stress was horrible, therefore we both felt IVF was the most ideal way to go.

 

[mr.e01]

Yea a couple people have mentioned this. I didn't do a test beforehand. Statistically speaking, I doubt that's the issue but of course it's totally possible. I'm not sure what to do in that case other than get a scan with my doctor.



Yes but not legally in the US. I don't trust UGLs. Too many stories of issues there.



Wow, you got up to 250 million and still needed to use IVF? Were there issues on your wife's end as well?

Yea like you said I just don't trust the other foreign pharmacies. Too many stories of bunk product, contaminated product, etc.

Empower unfortunately does not have HMG or I'd consider it with them.

Yup, my wife had an inflamed uterus where she had to minimize the inflammation or else the embryo wouldn’t attach to the uterine lining. I have a stepdaughter though, so most of the issue was mine with my sperm count being zero initially.

yes, foreign pharmacies are a risk, but no risk no reward. It was hell going through it, but by far worth it all now that we have our daughter. Without overseas pharmacies supplying the hmg at the lower cost, I don’t know if I could’ve afforded it. The doc wasn’t happy with the doses and drugs I took to increase my count, but at the end of the day, it did the trick. Most docs stick to safe protocols, but sometimes you need to push boundaries a bit to be successful. Just my opinion