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Hormone fluctuations is more natural

You can not run a machine 100% all the time or it'll break down. Same with the body

I'm on trt currently, 10 or 20 mgs a day, and have competed past six years, while this year I've used more mgs, and stayed on longer than previously it's still important to come down to say 150 mgsfor a time being

Lab results are important, and all health markers
 
I have not. But I've seen it done. I was pointing out extremes. The most I ever have done is 3cc's at a time. I think 5cc's in one reservoir would take too much time to dissipate causing possible problems.

That's just my opinion though as the medical community might disagree with me considering they're just fine with a Nebido 4cc one-time injection.

I use a method for amounts over 2cc's by doing half, then pulling the needle out to subq range and then moving my hand to go in at a different angle for the remainder. Usually it's 1cc at a time though for example 750mg test/wk will be 3 x 1cc 3 days a week. What other people do and how they do it is of no concern to me. Bilateral might be great if you're doing huge quantities of oils in a week. The most I've ever done is 10cc's oil in a week (4ml test, 3ml eq, 3ml tren) along with growth factors.

And for lesser amounts, 0.5ml, 0.25ml, I'll use a slin pin but I'm not going to religiously commit to slin pins only. Slin pins are simply not adequate for a deep intramuscular inj. I approach things medically, not BBing community bro-talk style.

I can do a 2 or 3cc deep glute inj and it's not very noticable to me if at all. Delts maybe bc those are more shallow. And I'm just fine with sesame or grapeseed oil. I notice more site inflammation with MCT and EO. Just bc the pin is 1.5" doesn't mean you have bury the needle. LOL. I go to the depth that I want.

FWIW, I have no trouble putting 1/10th cc HCG, GH, LR3IGF, or even test suspension into a forearm, medialis, or calf muscle. But only because it's water-based and a rather small amount. And I don't cry myself to sleep at night because of a little site post-inj soreness.
I once did 10cc in each glute and 5cc in each quad, inside a tiny Mexican pharmacy bathroom in Tijuana, with another 250lb meathead in the bathroom with me, while the pharmacist was pounding on the door saying hurry up, good times...
 
I once did 10cc in each glute and 5cc in each quad, inside a tiny Mexican pharmacy bathroom in Tijuana, with another 250lb meathead in the bathroom with me, while the pharmacist was pounding on the door saying hurry up, good times...
Yikes that's a lot! 😂 But I understand how it can happen. I'm sure we could exchange some crazy stories.
 
I have not. But I've seen it done. I was pointing out extremes. The most I ever have done is 3cc's at a time. I think 5cc's in one reservoir would take too much time to dissipate causing possible problems.

That's just my opinion though as the medical community might disagree with me considering they're just fine with a Nebido 4cc one-time injection.

I use a method for amounts over 2cc's by doing half, then pulling the needle out to subq range and then moving my hand to go in at a different angle for the remainder. Usually it's 1cc at a time though for example 750mg test/wk will be 3 x 1cc 3 days a week. What other people do and how they do it is of no concern to me. Bilateral might be great if you're doing huge quantities of oils in a week. The most I've ever done is 10cc's oil in a week (4ml test, 3ml eq, 3ml tren) along with growth factors.

And for lesser amounts, 0.5ml, 0.25ml, I'll use a slin pin but I'm not going to religiously commit to slin pins only. Slin pins are simply not adequate for a deep intramuscular inj. I approach things medically, not BBing community bro-talk style.

I can do a 2 or 3cc deep glute inj and it's not very noticable to me if at all. Delts maybe bc those are more shallow. And I'm just fine with sesame or grapeseed oil. I notice more site inflammation with MCT and EO. Just bc the pin is 1.5" doesn't mean you have bury the needle. LOL. I go to the depth that I want.

FWIW, I have no trouble putting 1/10th cc HCG, GH, LR3IGF, or even test suspension into a forearm, medialis, or calf muscle. But only because it's water-based and a rather small amount. And I don't cry myself to sleep at night because of a little site post-inj soreness.
Ya I don’t typically go over 3ml at a time. I pin delts with 3 ml regularly. I’ve done 3 in rear delts and tris as well, but I had to work up to those amounts. I also really enjoy using a slin pin and injecting .5 ml of gear into a couple different spots on the lateral tricep head. It really helps me focus on feeling it while training
 
I mean this is what a number of us have been talking about with daily dosing for a long time now...

Only a tiny amount of testosterone aromatizes, like 2-3% if I remember correctly.
I think that's close. I think it's ~ 0.5 to 1% or there abouts based on serum levels. But you might be closer to the true value since there are downstream conversions.
 
1. I think daily dosing may be optimal even for larger cycles, forget mimicking pulsatile natty release, that really isn't the point, just a possible side benefit when doing TRT doses. Daily seems to lead to high levels of free hormone.

2. Health is HUGE for maximizing size and growth! Perhaps the biggest factor! This is what allows you to keep pushing over the long term and what lets you use higher doses, recover, utilize food, etc. The healthier you are, the bigger you will get in the long run, EVEN IF YOUR GOAL IS PURE SIZE. The more you take the bigger you will get IF you can remain healthy. The second your health falters, all your gains are limited.

3. You can do even larger precontest cycles with 30g slin pins (even without backloading) to minimize scar tissue. You will get less scar tissue from 30g daily dosing than 25g anything for sure.

4. Daily dosing was common among pros in the 90s, lots of them talked about it, Dillet, Levrone, Milos (just to name a few) all talked about daily dosing.

5. In reference to testosterone aromatization above, sure activity level of non-testicular aromatase varies in individuals, but that doesn't change the fact that only a TINY fraction of total testosterone is ever aromatized to E2, even in hyper-aromatizing individuals.
Pure gold
 
Even when cycling I do daily dosing, I get crazy free test numbers from doing daily and I feel I get better results for the dose. Also, TRT is often used between cycles even if you are going hard, I personally think going off completely if you can get some natty production going, or doing physiological TRT doses is a major key for recovering faster between cycles and can ultimately allow for less time off in the long run, since most people will eventually be limited by health factors.
More gold
 
1. I think daily dosing may be optimal even for larger cycles, forget mimicking pulsatile natty release, that really isn't the point, just a possible side benefit when doing TRT doses. Daily seems to lead to high levels of free hormone.
I have never seen any evidence that daily dosing increases levels of free testosterone nor any other analogue or anabolic. I can't even think of a reason why this would rven be remotely true. The "may be" or "seems to" is fine but we'd have to look at esterase enzymatic activity over a 24hr period, aromarase levels and replenishment time over a 24hr period, 5alpha reductase levels, and a large variety of other individual factors.

2. Health is HUGE for maximizing size and growth! Perhaps the biggest factor! This is what allows you to keep pushing over the long term and what lets you use higher doses, recover, utilize food, etc. The healthier you are, the bigger you will get in the long run, EVEN IF YOUR GOAL IS PURE SIZE. The more you take the bigger you will get IF you can remain healthy. The second your health falters, all your gains are limited.
Obviously nobody is going to be slinging big steel from a hospital bed. But absent individual factors like health, general well-being, financial constraints, etc (as I said before) and all things being equal, more juice = more gains along a steep dose-respondent curve. It is an immutable fact. Why anyone would even dispute it is beyond me.

3. You can do even larger precontest cycles with 30g slin pins (even without backloading) to minimize scar tissue. You will get less scar tissue from 30g daily dosing than 25g anything for sure.
There is absolutely no evidence of this. Scar tissue (size and appearance) varies by individual. 90 x 31g slin pins vs 21 x 25g pins = less scar tissue for sure? Good luck backing that up. After pushing a slin pin through a stopper then going to the muscle with it vs a fresh 25g out of the wrapper? I'd say it's probably close to a wash even on a 1 to 1 basis, let alone a 7 to 1 basis.

4. Daily dosing was common among pros in the 90s, lots of them talked about it, Dillet, Levrone, Milos (just to name a few) all talked about daily dosing.
True. We're talking 30+ml's of oil a week. I'm certain they did. But not because of any additional pharmacological performance or potency. I'm also reasonably certain they didn't use slin pins. And I'm absolutely certain they weren't extremely concerned about scar tissue (even though it was actually visible on some of them).

5. In reference to testosterone aromatization above, sure activity level of non-testicular aromatase varies in individuals, but that doesn't change the fact that only a TINY fraction of total testosterone is ever aromatized to E2, even in hyper-aromatizing individuals.
Absolutely, only the very tiniest of amounts (< 2% free testosterone).

---
It's difficult in these communities to sift through information and distill it all down to truth versus word of mouth, common practice, bro-science, opinion or theory because all to often the information is conflated with personal preferences, "feels", philosophy, and even message board politics at times.

If you find me contradicting you, it's not personal or performative. It's functional. You might find it hard to believe, but I love to be proven wrong. The reason being, is because at that moment I come just a little bit closer to the truth.

My philosophy is to best adhere to the scientifically documented evidence of the pharmacokinetics of the AAS, peptide, et al itself combined with the pharmacodynamics of a deep intramuscular inj, a subcutaneous inj, a tablet, a gel, etc as relates to human physiology and biochemistry.

It's no easy task. And since much of it is undocumented, not published, not peer-reviewed, we're left throwing shit up against a wall and seeing what sticks.
 
I have never seen any evidence that daily dosing increases levels of free testosterone nor any other analogue or anabolic. I can't even think of a reason why this would rven be remotely true. The "may be" or "seems to" is fine but we'd have to look at esterase enzymatic activity over a 24hr period, aromarase levels and replenishment time over a 24hr period, 5alpha reductase levels, and a large variety of other individual factors.
It's a phenomenon that seems to be true with every single person doing daily dosing TRT (and there are a lot posting bloodwork), extremely high free test levels relative to dose and total test levels. Aromatase and 5ar levels aren't going to have anything to do with it, they have very little impact on T levels, as only a minuscule fraction of test is metabolized in this pathway. The most likely cause is availability for deesterification, since most esterified hormone is stored in fatty tissue with larger doses. "We'd have to look at" - I don't think esterase activity is that easy to measure (as it goes beyond just plasma concentration) and I doubt anyone is going to study this anytime soon. However, the anecdotal is plentiful (just on these forums alone) and anyone can easily test this on themselves by simple bloodwork.
 
Obviously nobody is going to be slinging big steel from a hospital bed. But absent individual factors like health, general well-being, financial constraints, etc (as I said before) and all things being equal, more juice = more gains along a steep dose-respondent curve. It is an immutable fact. Why anyone would even dispute it is beyond me.
No one ever disputed that size is at least somewhat dose-dependent but it's far more complex than this, health issues based on dosage are EXTREMELY common and the second you start to run into any health issues, you are DONE. The ability to do large doses and stay healthy is perhaps the SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR in bodybuilding success! "Constitution," as my doctor used to call it, is very individual. I mean there are a million examples of this, honestly, I don't understand how anyone would dispute this, it is an immutable fact: If you can't stay healthy at X dosage, your ability to gain size over the long term will be extremely limited, bodybuilding is a marathon, not a sprint.
 
There is absolutely no evidence of this. Scar tissue (size and appearance) varies by individual. 90 x 31g slin pins vs 21 x 25g pins = less scar tissue for sure? Good luck backing that up. After pushing a slin pin through a stopper then going to the muscle with it vs a fresh 25g out of the wrapper? I'd say it's probably close to a wash even on a 1 to 1 basis, let alone a 7 to 1 basis.
Volume of 25g x 25.4mm = V≈3.98 mm^3
Volume of 30g x 12.7mm = V≈0.65 mm^3

So 6.12 to 1 so you are correct, not 7 to 1 but EXTREMELY close. And how many people doing only 1 injection per week? You can get MORE volume with 7 weekly 1cc slin pin injections than 1 5cc injection.
"Fresh 25g out of the wrapper" - Not sure what this means, people do no reuse slin pins, they are always fresh also.

Also, if you are doing subQ (which many are) then we are talking about WAY less scar tissue due to not pushing through the full 1/2" of tissue (I personally do IM with slin pins).

Also, there are plenty of people on here that do several daily slin pin injections per day, honestly I don't feel like scar tissue is an issue at all.

Further, I don't think scar tissue from the actual needle is an issue at all, I think the scar tissue is primarily from the substance injected, not from the needle, counterintuitive I know, but I believe this to be true.

Another interesting perspective: there are people getting dry needling/acupuncture done on an extremely frequent basis and I've never heard of scar tissue being an issue.
 
Volume of 25g x 25.4mm = V≈3.98 mm^3
Volume of 30g x 12.7mm = V≈0.65 mm^3

So 6.12 to 1 so you are correct, not 7 to 1 but EXTREMELY close. And how many people doing only 1 injection per week? You can get MORE volume with 7 weekly 1cc slin pin injections than 1 5cc injection.
"Fresh 25g out of the wrapper" - Not sure what this means, people do no reuse slin pins, they are always fresh also.

Also, if you are doing subQ (which many are) then we are talking about WAY less scar tissue due to not pushing through the full 1/2" of tissue (I personally do IM with slin pins).

Also, there are plenty of people on here that do several daily slin pin injections per day, honestly I don't feel like scar tissue is an issue at all.

Further, I don't think scar tissue from the actual needle is an issue at all, I think the scar tissue is primarily from the substance injected, not from the needle, counterintuitive I know, but I believe this to be true.

Another interesting perspective: there are people getting dry needling/acupuncture done on an extremely frequent basis and I've never heard of scar tissue being an issue.
Acupuncture needles are nearly hair thin so I don’t think it’s comparable. And I think what he meant about the fresh 25g was that you would draw with another needle and then put on your 25g needle that has never pierced a rubber stopper and inject with that, vs your insulin needle that you’ve pushed through a stopper
 
Acupuncture needles are nearly hair thin so I don’t think it’s comparable. And I think what he meant about the fresh 25g was that you would draw with another needle and then put on your 25g needle that has never pierced a rubber stopper and inject with that, vs your insulin needle that you’ve pushed through a stopper
But there are so many of them and the depth is often greater than 1/2" I would think they could compare to a single 30g, anyhow, the point is, I don't think any significant scar tissue is accrued from 30g needles. Like I said above, I think the scar tissue mainly comes from the injectable itself, not the needle. The exception may be people using the same spot over and over, which generally isn't done.
 
But there are so many of them and the depth is often greater than 1/2" I would think they could compare to a single 30g, anyhow, the point is, I don't think any significant scar tissue is accrued from 30g needles. Like I said above, I think the scar tissue mainly comes from the injectable itself, not the needle. The exception may be people using the same spot over and over, which generally isn't done.
I agree. But let's think about this. The injectable compound is certainly more likely to cause inflammation (and resulting scar tissue). The pins themselves also cause scar tissue. Insulin dependent individuals, over the years, have to rotate insulin inj due to scar tissue. But aside from the pin itself, do we want that inflammation close to the surface or deeper within the muscle? Too shallow or too deep, you risk pain (pressure on nerves activates them).

Close to the muscle surface (the deep fascia) results in more pain. But why? Because muscle fascia (aka deep fascia) has far more sensory nerves (6 times as many) than its red muscular counterpart and has 4 types of sensory nerve endings (mechanoreceptors). It separates muscles and individual muscles within groups of muscles. Organs also. Fascia should be classified as an organ in itself. It's everywhere.

But back to inflammation. Your going to have inflammation around the deposit regardless of where it is. But inserting a compound just below the surface of a muscle (just below the deep fascia) will likely cause more inj site pain. Exactly because of this inflammation. Ideally, you want an injection to be placed well beneath the fascia but not so deep as the muscular nucleus which may be home to even larger nerves (which also have a fascial sheath) and cause even broader, more radiating pain. The exact depth would vary from muscle to muscle but people like ourselves, we become pretty familiar with where these spots are (through trial and error).

More error than trial I'm thinking. We know where and where not to go. An insulin pin is probably ideal for 1/10th or 1/8th of a cc because those produce very little inflammation. Also ideal for anything water-based or a very thin oil (and less hydrophobic). But larger amounts of oil > 1cc would need to be placed deeper. Much of this is individual. Personal preference.
 
word. The forum has lots some of its hardcore luster. What happened to progressive overload with AAS as well? Lol
The young crowd who is in the position to really push things with relatively less risk than the 40+ crowd are not as drawn to message boards the way they used to be. If you go back to 2008 I bet the average age here would be lower than it is today. Many of us are simply not in the position to push things the way a younger(I'm not old by any means) man does. These younger hardcore guys are still welcome here but we can't drag them here against their will lol.
 

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