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1 Year Heart Update

Pumped340

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I just started another thread on TRT and heart health ( http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...cardiac-health-convo-maldorf.html#post2194259 ) which I researched based on what I'm going into here. This an update to a thread I started about a year ago for anyone interested in heart health and what happened ( http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...aas-lower-my-ejection-fraction-permanent.html ). Essentially my Ejection Fraction was only ~50% and given normal is 55-70% and my father's is 60% my reading concerned me, along with my chest pain that was getting more significant and consistent.

I came off everything but my TRT since about March and for the last 9 months I've been taking the following, all of which have been shown to have some type of benefit on the heart (1-3 of which directly shown to increase EF%):
3g Acetyl L-Carnitine
1130mg Hawthorn Berry
200mg Ubiquinol
2-3g Taurine
300mg Magnesium Malate
10g D-Ribose
1440mg Abana per day
6-7g Fish Oil
1500mg Curcumin w Bioperine (recently switched to BCM-95)

Chest pain was occasionally still there but had diminished significantly in both frequency and severity. So I was very hopeful. I had talked with Maldorf and I know he and Chris250 had reduced EFs and then when they came off their numbers got to 50+% again so another reason I was expecting significant improvements.

Well I had my echo done last week, and it's essentially the same. Needless to say it was pretty disappointing. My chest pain is actually worse today (right now) than it's been in a while, which makes me wonder if it is somehow related to anxiety i.e. the concern about my results causing it (which I had previously dismissed since I am not an anxious person in general and tend to be calm and objective)

In any case, just figured I'd update about that for those interested. I'm not necessarily looking for advice here but of course if anyone has informative ideas to share I'd love to hear them. And hopefully it can help someone out if they had anything similar happen to them, or were looking into these supplements.

My doctors just tell me to "keep an eye on it" and now want me tested again in 3 years. Not exactly comforting in my opinion. I was considering coming off even TRT but as a number of the studies I posted in the above thread show that's probably not the best move either.
 
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sluggy

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Dude there's no reversing cardiac remodeling. I don't know who told you some herbs and spices could. 50% is a great EF. I'd love to have one that high.

TRT isn't hurting your heart. Lol..
 
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Pumped340

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Dude there's no reversing cardiac remodeling. I don't know who told you some herbs and spices could. 50% is a great EF. I'd love to have one that high.

TRT isn't hurting your heart. Lol..
Regarding the bolded statement, I am not sure there was any significant change in my heart structure to begin with. My cardiac MRI showed no scar tissue, and a normal sized heart, surprisingly.

And if you're suggesting there is no way to improve EF%, where is that info coming from? It seems a number of people here have come off gear and seen significant improvements in ejection fraction.

Lastly, as far as TRT hurting my heart, I sure hope not, but that's what that other thread goes into. There is a lot of info out there but it is fairly inconclusive. In one of them even 200mg of TRT started impairing heart function.
 

sluggy

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Regarding the bolded statement, I am not sure there was any significant change in my heart structure to begin with. My cardiac MRI showed no scar tissue, and a normal sized heart, surprisingly.

And if you're suggesting there is no way to improve EF%, where is that info coming from? It seems a number of people here have come off gear and seen significant improvements in ejection fraction.

Lastly, as far as TRT hurting my heart, I sure hope not, but that's what that other thread goes into. There is a lot of info out there but it is fairly inconclusive. In one of them even 200mg of TRT started impairing heart function.
No there are definitely ways to imporve EF, that's a fact.

Yes I saw your other thread. Estrogen seems to be a much bigger problem than testosterone.
 

Pumped340

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No there are definitely ways to imporve EF, that's a fact.

Yes I saw your other thread. Estrogen seems to be a much bigger problem than testosterone.
Ah OK, thought you were saying it wasn't possible. So what ways do you know of? I laughed at your "herbs and spices" comment, but a lot of those listed do have a significant number of studies backing up their contribution to heart health. I have seen some showing ribose increased ejection fraction, and I think maybe another one of them as well (it's been a while since I read the studies).

Not necessarily. Estrogen was shown to be beneficial in a number of the studies posted (maybe I should have made it one thread, but it seemed to be cluttered). I believe 3 of them showed better heart health with higher estrogen...but of course some showed worse heart health. I'm surprised by how much of a discrepancy there is between results honestly.

Oh and you mentioned you think 50% is "great"....I can't say I agree for a fit male in his 20's. What is yours and is there something that caused it to be low?
 

gotgame

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What was your EF on the MRI?

Ever have a MUGA?

Echos can have a huge margin of error.
 

Pumped340

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What was your EF on the MRI?

Ever have a MUGA?

Echos can have a huge margin of error.
It was 50.7% on the MRI.

I did not have a MUGA. I made the suggestion but they said "a MUGA will just tell us ejection fraction" (which is all I wanted) "an echo will allow us to get ejection fraction as well as other information".

Which I realize is true, but as you said an echo can have a significant margin of error and they give it in a 5% range. Last time they said it was "50%" and then later she said it was really "45-50%"....then we followed up with the MRI which said 50.7%


And I do realize this is not crazy low or anything. I'm just concerned because I'm in my mid 20's and even older men with some heart concerns often have EF's of 50-60%. I will of course keep an eye on things, and I'm done with cycling/blasting gear but I am on this TRT for most likely the rest of my life so I want to make sure I'm not causing some issues long term.
 
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emeric delczeg

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I just started another thread on TRT and heart health ( http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...cardiac-health-convo-maldorf.html#post2194259 ) which I researched based on what I'm going into here. This an update to a thread I started about a year ago for anyone interested in heart health and what happened ( http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...aas-lower-my-ejection-fraction-permanent.html ). Essentially my Ejection Fraction was only ~50% and given normal is 55-70% and my father's is 60% my reading concerned me, along with my chest pain that was getting more significant and consistent.

I came off everything but my TRT since about March and for the last 9 months I've been taking the following, all of which have been shown to have some type of benefit on the heart (1-3 of which directly shown to increase EF%):
3g Acetyl L-Carnitine
1130mg Hawthorn Berry
200mg Ubiquinol
2-3g Taurine
300mg Magnesium Malate
10g D-Ribose
1440mg Abana per day
6-7g Fish Oil
1500mg Curcumin w Bioperine (recently switched to BCM-95)

Chest pain was occasionally still there but had diminished significantly in both frequency and severity. So I was very hopeful. I had talked with Maldorf and I know he and Chris250 had reduced EFs and then when they came off their numbers got to 50+% again so another reason I was expecting significant improvements.

Well I had my echo done last week, and it's essentially the same. Needless to say it was pretty disappointing. My chest pain is actually worse today (right now) than it's been in a while, which makes me wonder if it is somehow related to anxiety i.e. the concern about my results causing it (which I had previously dismissed since I am not an anxious person in general and tend to be calm and objective)

In any case, just figured I'd update about that for those interested. I'm not necessarily looking for advice here but of course if anyone has informative ideas to share I'd love to hear them. And hopefully it can help someone out if they had anything similar happen to them, or were looking into these supplements.

My doctors just tell me to "keep an eye on it" and now want me tested again in 3 years. Not exactly comforting in my opinion. I was considering coming off even TRT but as a number of the studies I posted in the above thread show that's probably not the best move either.
Try to add Humanofort, Meldorf is on for almost 6 years or more.

The Humanofort contains all the natural catalog stem cell biosimilar microRNAs, growth factors and pluripotent Yamanaka factors. This catalog includes; IGF-1, IGF-2, FGF (fibroblast growth factors), NGF (nerve growth factors), EGF (epidermal growth factors), CTGF (connective tissue growth factors), Immunoglobulins, Immune-Regulating Anti-Inflammatory Cytokines, and TGF-§ (Transforming Growth Factor Beta) Follistatin, Thymosin beta4.

Abstract
Hypoxic heart disease is a predominant cause of disability and death worldwide. As adult mammals are incapable of cardiac repair after infarction, the discovery of effective methods to achieve myocardial and vascular regeneration is crucial. Efforts to use stem cells to repopulate damaged tissue are currently limited by technical considerations and restricted cell potential. We discovered that the small, secreted peptide thymosin beta4 (Tbeta4) could be sufficiently used to inhibit myocardial cell death, stimulate vessel growth, and activate endogenous cardiac progenitors by reminding the adult heart on its embryonic program in vivo. The initiation of epicardial thickening accompanied by increase of myocardial and epicardial progenitors with or without infarction indicate that the reactivation process is independent of injury. Our results demonstrate Tbeta4 to be the first known molecule able to initiate simultaneous myocardial and vascular regeneration after systemic administration in vivo. Given our findings, the utility of Tbeta4 to heal cardiac injury may hold promise and warrant further investigation.
 

Pumped340

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I am admittedly completely ignorant on the topic of Humanofort. Though, from what I understand, Maldorf's ejection fraction has remained the same and not improved since his heart attack despite taking it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I will see what other information on it I can find. I have heard it mentioned multiple times over the years but never looked into it. Do you have any personal experience with it or even anecdotes from others?


Thanks
 

danit

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I have not read your other thread, but if you are are doing this already, try and add more cardio.

I increased my EF over a year from 58 to 68, by just adding cardio 5 times a week.
 

nothuman

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I've done everything possible to increase my EF from 60% (which isn't even bad) and haven't been able to do so either. I just had an echo cardiogram the other day. I tried ribose and it didn't work so I dropped it.

Also like gotgame said, echo cardiograms have a huge margin of error. I have seen this first hand, and if I weren't insistent on a CT scan, I'd be dead right now.

I think your chest pain could be anxiety from worrying about your health. I never had anxiety before until I started worrying about my health and now it comes and goes. When I see a doctor for piece of mind, it stops for a little while.

Another thing, how much cardio do you do and what kind specifically? I would seriously consider HIIT.

STAY on TRT. I'd go as far as telling you it would be detrimental to your health if you stopped it and lived with low testosterone levels. Too much data out there to support this fact.
 
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Pumped340

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I have not read your other thread, but if you are are doing this already, try and add more cardio.

I increased my EF over a year from 58 to 68, by just adding cardio 5 times a week.
Perhaps this is something I did not consider strongly enough. So just to be clear you were at 58% doing no cardio at all, and then after adding in cardio 5x/week you were up to 68%?

What type of cardio did you do and how long were you doing it (e.g. weeks, months, years) before getting retested?

I've done everything possible to increase my EF from 60% (which isn't even bad) and haven't been able to do so either. I just had an echo cardiogram the other day. I tried ribose and it didn't work so I dropped it.

Also like gotgame said, echo cardiograms have a huge margin of error. I have seen this first hand, and if I weren't insistent on a CT scan, I'd be dead right now.

I think your chest pain could be anxiety from worrying about your health. I never had anxiety before until I started worrying about my health and now it comes and goes. When I see a doctor for piece of mind, it stops for a little while.

Another thing, how much cardio do you do and what kind specifically? I would seriously consider HIIT.

STAY on TRT. I'd go as far as telling you it would be detrimental to your health if you stopped it and lived with low testosterone levels. Too much data out there to support this fact.
Hey NH, why were you trying to increase it above 60%? At that level I don't know if there would really be much benefit.

Can you explain the bolded part? What error did an echo have for you?

What you said about anxiety is just like me. I am very calm/logical/objective in almost all areas of my life, but when it comes to bodybuilding and health my worries/concerns can take over. It's never really felt like true anxiety until more recently but perhaps that is in fact part of the issue with the chest pain. It was the worst ever on EQ and while I did not feel what I would think anxiety feels like I know EQ causes anxiety more than any other AAS seems to, so perhaps that is it.

I think if I came off TRT I could get test levels up to ~400. They were ~500 before touching gear, but yes I'd much rather stay on assuming no detrimental effects from it.

As for cardio, to be honest ever since I ended my cut a few months ago I haven't done much cardio. Part of that is because my previous routine was 6 days per week and my current routine, while only 3-4 days per week, has more volume and higher rep work, providing some cardio-like effects. Having said that, perhaps some traditional cardio would be beneficial. Cardio studies are always hard to go by because while they do show great benefits to health many of us get those same benefits from lifting (and that applies especially to HIIT, those of us lifting hard and heavy in the 8-20 rep range in the compound lifts are certainly getting many benefits there that HIIT would provide). It certainly won't hurt though, so maybe I should throw it back in for 20min after workouts or something.
 
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nothuman

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Hey NH, why were you trying to increase it above 60%? At that level I don't know if there would really be much benefit.



Can you explain the bolded part? What error did an echo have for you?



What you said about anxiety is just like me. I am very calm/logical/objective in almost all areas of my life, but when it comes to bodybuilding and health my worries/concerns can take over. It's never really felt like true anxiety until more recently but perhaps that is in fact part of the issue with the chest pain. It was the worst ever on EQ and while I did not feel what I would think anxiety feels like I know EQ causes anxiety more than any other AAS seems to, so perhaps that is it.



I think if I came off TRT I could get test levels up to ~400. They were ~500 before touching gear, but yes I'd much rather stay on assuming no detrimental effects from it.



As for cardio, to be honest ever since I ended my cut a few months ago I haven't done much cardio. Part of that is because my previous routine was 6 days per week and my current routine, while only 3-4 days per week, has more volume and higher rep work, providing some cardio-like effects. Having said that, perhaps some traditional cardio would be beneficial. Cardio studies are always hard to go by because while they do show great benefits to health many of us get those same benefits from lifting (and that applies especially to HIIT, those of us lifting hard and heavy in the 8-20 rep range in the compound lifts are certainly getting many benefits there that HIIT would provide). It certainly won't hurt though, so maybe I should throw it back in for 20min after workouts or something.

As you know, I had to have open heart surgery to replace my aortic root. The echo cardiogram showed it was 4.5cm, but the CT scan showed 5.2cm. Surgery is generally needed once it goes beyond 5.0cm. Imagine if I didn't get the CT scan and didn't get another checkup for a year? Could have meant life or death for me.

I wasn't specifically trying to raise my EF per say, but was kind of hoping it would increase slightly and it wouldn't hurt.

We are pretty close to the same age (I turn 30 in two weeks unfortunately).

I think you are really underestimating the benefits of cardio. I've really read up a lot on HIIT cardio and it just has too many benefits to list. I kill myself with the weights and the HIIT treadmill sprinting multiple times per week. Even if you can't bare the thought of all out intensity, at least do some challenging cardio several times a week. Make it a habit to just roll out of bed and do it, or do it after weights. I can't guarantee it will help, but it sure as hell won't hurt.
 

G.I.Bro

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Thank you for this post and following up. I'll be following your thread. My father and uncle are diagnosed with cardiomyopathy and low EF from it. Needless to say it's probably in the genes and I'm playing with fire using AAS/gh/peps. Not diagnosed yet.

So do you have an enlarged heart or is it some other defect?
 

Pumped340

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Thank you for this post and following up. I'll be following your thread. My father and uncle are diagnosed with cardiomyopathy and low EF from it. Needless to say it's probably in the genes and I'm playing with fire using AAS/gh/peps. Not diagnosed yet.

So do you have an enlarged heart or is it some other defect?
I was never told I have an enlarged heart / enlarged ventricles. But in this recent echo the woman taking the images mentioned to her coworker "he has a big heart. But he's a big guy and athletic so that's normal".

Up to 5.7cm is what they consider normal but they had not done the official report at that point so they did not tell me my exact measurements. I should know later this week more specific details. I remember before being surprised when they told me there was no noticeable enlargement, so if they tell me now there is now that will be more bad news.

As for your predisposition, I would strongly suggest you not play around with GH/peptides if that's the case.All of the data I've seen indicate it's fairly well established now that GH and especially GH+AAS is considerably worse for your heart than AAS alone.
 
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emeric delczeg

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I am admittedly completely ignorant on the topic of Humanofort. Though, from what I understand, Maldorf's ejection fraction has remained the same and not improved since his heart attack despite taking it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I will see what other information on it I can find. I have heard it mentioned multiple times over the years but never looked into it. Do you have any personal experience with it or even anecdotes from others?


Thanks
It did go up, it was below 20 and after 1 year on Humanofort his ejection fraction went over 20. He have not suffered another syncope and his defibrillator has not had to fire off again since before he started the Humanofort. He will have on other test next year.
 

Pumped340

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It did go up, it was below 20 and after 1 year on Humanofort his ejection fraction went over 20. He have not suffered another syncope and his defibrillator has not had to fire off again since before he started the Humanofort. He will have on other test next year.
OK thanks for the correction, I was under the impression it was right at 20% or so the entire time.

I guess there's no way to know if the Humanofort in any way helped him not suffer another syncope or his defibrillator going up, but hopefully it has helped. I'll look into it soon.
 

DOGGCRAPP

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I just started another thread on TRT and heart health ( http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...cardiac-health-convo-maldorf.html#post2194259 ) which I researched based on what I'm going into here. This an update to a thread I started about a year ago for anyone interested in heart health and what happened ( http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...aas-lower-my-ejection-fraction-permanent.html ). Essentially my Ejection Fraction was only ~50% and given normal is 55-70% and my father's is 60% my reading concerned me, along with my chest pain that was getting more significant and consistent.

I came off everything but my TRT since about March and for the last 9 months I've been taking the following, all of which have been shown to have some type of benefit on the heart (1-3 of which directly shown to increase EF%):
3g Acetyl L-Carnitine
1130mg Hawthorn Berry
200mg Ubiquinol
2-3g Taurine
300mg Magnesium Malate
10g D-Ribose
1440mg Abana per day
6-7g Fish Oil
1500mg Curcumin w Bioperine (recently switched to BCM-95)

Chest pain was occasionally still there but had diminished significantly in both frequency and severity. So I was very hopeful. I had talked with Maldorf and I know he and Chris250 had reduced EFs and then when they came off their numbers got to 50+% again so another reason I was expecting significant improvements.

Well I had my echo done last week, and it's essentially the same. Needless to say it was pretty disappointing. My chest pain is actually worse today (right now) than it's been in a while, which makes me wonder if it is somehow related to anxiety i.e. the concern about my results causing it (which I had previously dismissed since I am not an anxious person in general and tend to be calm and objective)

In any case, just figured I'd update about that for those interested. I'm not necessarily looking for advice here but of course if anyone has informative ideas to share I'd love to hear them. And hopefully it can help someone out if they had anything similar happen to them, or were looking into these supplements.

My doctors just tell me to "keep an eye on it" and now want me tested again in 3 years. Not exactly comforting in my opinion. I was considering coming off even TRT but as a number of the studies I posted in the above thread show that's probably not the best move either.
IM pretty shocked because the 2 supplements ive studied that have the greatest effects on increasing ejection fraction....you are not using.

A) high dose ubiquinol
B) pycogenol (ESPECIALLY PYCOGENOL!)
c) also citrulline
d) arjuna
e) taurine

You can do the research yourself but 22% increases?!?! You better get on it

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=pycogenol+ejection+fraction
 

emeric delczeg

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OK thanks for the correction, I was under the impression it was right at 20% or so the entire time.

I guess there's no way to know if the Humanofort in any way helped him not suffer another syncope or his defibrillator going up, but hopefully it has helped. I'll look into it soon.
Is only one way if some one would put up a few million dollars for a study. How ever there are more people joining improvement by using it. I can email you existing studies on people and dogs. This is from a study that was conducted this year,

Results and discussions
We evaluated the free radical scavenging activity of Humanofort and its peptides components against the synthetic nitrogen-centered 2,2'-azinobis(3-ethylbenzothiazo- line-6-sulfonic acid (ABTS) radical cation, according to Re et al. (19) method. At the highest concentration tested (100 μg/ml), tested products scavenged 88.57 ± 0.63 (Humanofort) and, respectively, 98.42% ± 0.18% and 82.65% ± 0.62% of the radical (F1 and F2 peptides). Glutathione, the positive control, completely scavenged the
radical (Figure 1a). According to the EC50 values F1 peptides (21.29 ± 0.17 μg/ml) was the most active; glutathione scavenged the radical with an EC50 value of 3.42 ±
0.05 μg/ml, in our experimental conditions (Table 1). Glutathione is a powerful antioxidant peptides, thus is approximately six times less potent, F1 peptides is an efficient ABTS radical scavenger (considering also its molecular mass of 10 kDa, approx. 30 times higher than that of glutathione).
 

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