after 20 years of juicing i got a BLOOD CLOT ....

[emeric delczeg]

Before using any anabiloc steroids

Before you try to use any anabolic you need to have a blood work including a test for any factor disorder, this is a must.

The percentage of people who have factor V Leiden depends on the population studied. Higher percentages are reported among people of European ancestry compared to people from other continents. In the United States, factor V Leiden has been found in 5 percent of individuals of European ancestry, 2 percent of individuals of African ancestry, 2 percent of individuals of Hispanic ancestry, 2 percent of Native Americans, and less than 1 percent of individuals of Asian ancestry.

Individuals who have inherited one copy of the gene for factor V Leiden (heterozygotes) have a 3- to 10-fold increased risk of DVT or PE; individuals who have inherited two copies of the gene (homozygotes) have an 80- to 100-fold increased risk. Among individuals of northern European ancestry who appear to have inherited a tendency to form blood clots, 20 to 40 percent have been found to carry the factor V Leiden gene.

 

[Thor]

Thanks Emeric..

I am mostly German from my moms side and some german and a mutt from my dads.

 

[Thor]

Sorry guys..

i just wanna add that i dont smoke weed or even drink ( one glass red wine with dinner on wknds only) anymore and havent in 20+ years, no rec drugs but i do use pain meds fairly regularly just cause of my job, ( you hit your hand with a hammer or bang your head on a beam or drop something on your toe or nail your hand or foot to a board with a nail gun and you'll know why) but other than that i dont use or abuse anything.. Im not looking for sympathy from anyone just trying to help spread the word although i would like to know what caused this. just remembered i have rarely used anti Es and never really seemed to need them, guess ill have to get some now, can someone pm me for pharma grade as i only usually get ancillary stuff in liquids

 

[prostock]

Nattok

for those of you who use Nattokinase. what brands do u like and how much a day? ive never heard of it, just started looking around for it.
seems like a pretty effective supp.

I use it from bulk supplements. . Many others sell it in capsule form also... pro

 

[Stewie]

Thor, I'm truly sorry to hear this. Try to take it in stride, and be thankful it didn't lead to a pulmonary embolism.

I'll echo several here, more importantly Gotgames' comments (other's, please don't take offense to that).

You've described some of the incidents leading up to your upper extremity DVT. If you could provide a little more information on this if you exercised within a few hours of this event? Any ephidrine, thyroid hormones or OTC supplements?

As Gotgame pointed, read up on Paget-Schroetter Syndrome. This is more of an idiopathic condition due to compression, and is more common than not in otherwise healthy athletes, labor workers. Moreso durning extreme overhead arm movements. This can cause venous compression provoking platelet aggregation. Triggering our clotting cascade to envoke a clot. This can happen too anyone of us, at any given time.

I see that you donated a week or so leading up to this event. How many phelbotomies have you had over the last 6-12 months? Have you had a complete iron panel pulled? I'm not talking about your hemoglobin-hematocrit. A few physicians believe hemoglobin-hematocrit are innocent bystanders in thrombotic events. I'm not sure, tho I have reasons to believe this myself.

I see you stated that you have hyperlipidemia. By chance do you know what your triglycerides are? Hyperlipidemia is associated with thrombotic events. As is iron deficiency. If in the event you may possibly be iron deficient. The combination of the two or in isolation can cause platelet aggregation, causing our platelets to become more "sticky".

I'm very certain that they checked you for clotting disorders. That'll be a given with any DVT. So no need to list off all the genetic-inherited disorders.

Have you or your primary care provider ever checked your homocysteine levels?

 

[warlock]

Dante has stated that one should not need more than 300mg test and perhaps 25mg of tren eod if I remember correctly to grow.

To compete is a different story though I think one can still compete at a decent level (at least decent regional show) and look great on little gear.

I would love to hear Dante's thoughts on some other milder options one may have to build a decent physique as long as diet and training are 100% in check.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

It could be as simple as he slept on it awkwardly for hours and this caused the blood clot...Ive actually come across someone who that has happened to....but that was a superficial clot not a DVT. Now that more details have come in namely
a) hernia surgery
b) what looks like a mini stroke (temporarily blind in one eye)
c) no bloodwork done when on
there is alot more going on than I initially thought when i thought it was a 55 year old guy using alot of RBC producing compounds.

Warlock I really dont want to be held inside of a box of what someone chooses or doesnt choose to use juice wise. I lean toward someone using what your body already produces as they get older....as I have never ever heard of anyone using TRT and having a thrombotic event even though it raises hematocrit levels....but these guys who died from pulmonary embolisms like Leffler, Youngblood etc...(Leffler had a clot in his leg that broke loose).....these guys were jacking high dose RBC producing compounds...if i remember right Leffler loved EQ. I hate being put in this box that Dante T says "you can make gains on this and this" and then it gets cut and pasted to 8 places online over time and guys say "WTF he is bullshitting you all, you cant compete at the nationals on that!".....well no shit......this all comes down to someones personal choices and what they want to do with their lives. If someone wants to compete nationally i would tell them to be really bland in the offseason with the big T and (anything else bloodwork proves out to be safe) and try to gain size with it with whatever dosage needed to get that done. And then when they have to hit the gas pedal for their show....they hit the gas pedal because everyone knows....when its time to win a show people go all in to win a show.....now with that said and what i dont understand and why i got up in arms on this thread is.....over 40 year old guys....you are not competing...but you want to look a certain way....and its not like you are getting off much (lets be honest here ok...lets not bullshit around its good dosed TRT and then more and then good dosed TRT and more....with very little time off IF ANY off....which again is your choice to do. What I dont understand is doing that for years and years and planning on doing that for the next decade but not having bloodwork telling you what is going on WHILE doing that. This could really be this simple:
Joe 235lbs10%bodyfat: Uses 500mg of test and 50mg of dball a day and loves the look but when he gets bloodwork he finds out his HDL is 6, LDL is sky high, cholesterol thru the roof, and PSA raising quick, liver enzymes soaring.....he stays with the 500mg of test and switches over to 200mg of nandralone a week, adds citrus bergamot, ground flax seeds 2x a day to his diet both for lipid reasons, cleans up diet a bit....retests smack dab in the middle of that and his HDL went back up, LDL is at 90, Cholesterol came back down to sub 180, liver enzymes went back down and things are looking good.....and although he doesnt feel as powerful in the gym, he likes the visual look........that is a much better scenario than someone just going out of sight out of mind for years on end......i mean what is freaking worse of the following 2 scenarios?
a) not looking like you want to look exactly because you have to remove a compound and use less mg than you really want to?
b) not being able to ever use again because you screwed yourself up healthwise?
I mean isnt A the best option by far.
Myself if I had free choice and will...I would love to use tren and anavar with testosterone year round every day of the year...that would be great...Id look like a freaking specimen at 265lbs of granite all year long....I CANT! My bloodwork has proven to me that I can use sub Q test at about 180mg a week and have stellar bloodwork. It is what it is. Thats my choice....I tried low low low dose tren at one time with it and everything checked out bloodwork wise but i saw that my PSA slowly started to rise a little over time so I had to drop that. So i totally understand the competitor mentality where someone is going for it....I dont understand the over 40 year old guys mentality where they dont want to know whats going on while they are doing things...expecially if its going to be longterm.
So my advice to the over 40 guys is "hey if your box proves out that you can only use 100mg of test a week otherwise you get awful bloodwork (which is a bad example because i think anyone could eat a clean diet and do cardio and use more)...sorry thats your box" ....and if that guy over there can use this much testosterone and this much of AAS and that over the too and prove out to get good bloodwork....more power to you!".....

 

[warlock]

It could be as simple as he slept on it awkwardly for hours and this caused the blood clot...Ive actually come across someone who that has happened to....but that was a superficial clot not a DVT. Now that more details have come in namely
a) hernia surgery
b) what looks like a mini stroke (temporarily blind in one eye)
c) no bloodwork done when on
there is alot more going on than I initially thought when i thought it was a 55 year old guy using alot of RBC producing compounds.

Warlock I really dont want to be held inside of a box of what someone chooses or doesnt choose to use juice wise. I lean toward someone using what your body already produces as they get older....as I have never ever heard of anyone using TRT and having a thrombotic event even though it raises hematocrit levels....but these guys who died from pulmonary embolisms like Leffler, Youngblood etc...(Leffler had a clot in his leg that broke loose).....these guys were jacking high dose RBC producing compounds...if i remember right Leffler loved EQ. I hate being put in this box that Dante T says "you can make gains on this and this" and then it gets cut and pasted to 8 places online over time and guys say "WTF he is bullshitting you all, you cant compete at the nationals on that!".....well no shit......this all comes down to someones personal choices and what they want to do with their lives. If someone wants to compete nationally i would tell them to be really bland in the offseason with the big T and (anything else bloodwork proves out to be safe) and try to gain size with it with whatever dosage needed to get that done. And then when they have to hit the gas pedal for their show....they hit the gas pedal because everyone knows....when its time to win a show people go all in to win a show.....now with that said and what i dont understand and why i got up in arms on this thread is.....over 40 year old guys....you are not competing...but you want to look a certain way....and its not like you are getting off much (lets be honest here ok...lets not bullshit around its good dosed TRT and then more and then good dosed TRT and more....with very little time off IF ANY off....which again is your choice to do. What I dont understand is doing that for years and years and planning on doing that for the next decade but not having bloodwork telling you what is going on WHILE doing that. This could really be this simple:
Joe 235lbs10%bodyfat: Uses 500mg of test and 50mg of dball a day and loves the look but when he gets bloodwork he finds out his HDL is 6, LDL is sky high, cholesterol thru the roof, and PSA raising quick, liver enzymes soaring.....he stays with the 500mg of test and switches over to 200mg of nandralone a week, adds citrus bergamot, ground flax seeds 2x a day to his diet both for lipid reasons, cleans up diet a bit....retests smack dab in the middle of that and his HDL went back up, LDL is at 90, Cholesterol came back down to sub 180, liver enzymes went back down and things are looking good.....and although he doesnt feel as powerful in the gym, he likes the visual look........that is a much better scenario than someone just going out of sight out of mind for years on end......i mean what is freaking worse of the following 2 scenarios?
a) not looking like you want to look exactly because you have to remove a compound and use less mg than you really want to?
b) not being able to ever use again because you screwed yourself up healthwise?
I mean isnt A the best option by far.
Myself if I had free choice and will...I would love to use tren and anavar with testosterone year round every day of the year...that would be great...Id look like a freaking specimen at 265lbs of granite all year long....I CANT! My bloodwork has proven to me that I can use sub Q test at about 180mg a week and have stellar bloodwork. It is what it is. Thats my choice....I tried low low low dose tren at one time with it and everything checked out bloodwork wise but i saw that my PSA slowly started to rise a little over time so I had to drop that. So i totally understand the competitor mentality where someone is going for it....I dont understand the over 40 year old guys mentality where they dont want to know whats going on while they are doing things...expecially if its going to be longterm.
So my advice to the over 40 guys is "hey if your box proves out that you can only use 100mg of test a week otherwise you get awful bloodwork (which is a bad example because i think anyone could eat a clean diet and do cardio and use more)...sorry thats your box" ....and if that guy over there can use this much testosterone and this much of AAS and that over the too and prove out to get good bloodwork....more power to you!".....

I absolutely love your posts and everything you have to say. I know some people read your stuff and do not give a crap and continue to use everything they can to achieve a certain look. However, many of us do appreciate your thoughts and opinion and your interest in opening people's eyes when it comes to bodybuilding, AAS and health.

Please continue to give your thoughts and do what you are doing. You have helped many (me being one of them) and I want to thank you for that.

 

[maldorf]

Factor 5 just happens to be the most common, however there are several "Factors" that can affect blood clotting, and you need to be tested for them. Hereditary blood clotting disorders tend to present themselves in late 30's at the earliest, and into 40's is typical. I personally have Factor 2 and Factor 8, and I learned that I had these when I had a heart attack in October 2009 at the age of 39. This is no joke, after learning about my conditions, and the way AAS affects blood thickness, clotting, etc, for me to take any type of AAS now would be like certain suicide. Therefore I can't and I don't.

Factor 2 is what I have, had my heart attack at age 38. Before everyone jumps on the boat that says the heart attacks we all had was just because of our clotting factors, think again. It is the combination of steroids and the clotting factors that does it. Most people that have these factors go their entire life and not have a single clot and they never know they have it. My mother and Uncle for example are 76 and 79 years old and never had a single issue. Didn't even know it was in the family until me and it was because of me that they got tested.

 

[maldorf]

Because Ive looked at more bloodwork of various people over the years who were bodybuilders than anyone I know out there....and time and time again, people who juice have high hematocrit....and sometimes seriously high hematocrit. Those 37 bicyclists that died a few years back from using EPO, a naysayer could have come into any forum and said "well my dads friends wifes husband had a blood clot and he never used EPO"....when if we want to get down to brass tacks....EPO is what killed those bicyclists. Maldorf on this site had a hematocrit of 63 and a short time later had a massive heart attack at I want to say a late 30's age....that isnt bad luck and coincedence...its a result of the compounds being used there. There have been so many incidences Ive seen of people with 57-63 hematocrit who were juicing bodybuilders who only found out that had hyper thick blood because they FINALLY got bloodwork or more likely had a thrombotic event. This isnt a "scare guys off from juicing" campaign by me....this is a "juice like you want to but gdamn it...find out whats going on when you are on hardcore and tweak it if you have to so you dont do major damage" campaign by me. I guarantee you...if you gave the guys like Pekkerwood/Maldorf/BaldNazi/ etc etc etc and the guys like Plang and others like him who just dissapeared off the site without telling their stories (Plang went into kidney failure i think it was at 28 years old).....if you gave those guys a second chance to do things differently...I bet every single one of them would leap over fire for that second chance to do things differently. There is a way to do this stuff and be ever single bit of the bodybuilder every one on this site wants to become....and there is a way to do this stuff with blinders on...and thats the guys who are running into trouble........and thats the guys im trying to talk to

Not only is it hematocrit, but also the clotting factor issues that can creep up. Most people that have the traits don't even know it is in the family because most people live their entire lives and never have a single clot. I had both issues. I knew about the hematocrit and had done my own phlebotomies and got my hemoglobin down to 15 on my own but still had the clot. Not sure what happened, probably the clotting factor I had. We have also seen that doing too much blood letting too fast can raise the chance of a clot, maybe I did mine too fast. It is all risky and needs to be handled my a medical professional. I wish I had gone to a different dotor and had him prescribe a phlebotomy.

 

[maldorf]

Exercise induced thrombosis is fairly common. I gave a talk on this in december to a bunch of students and residents. Know what it is so maybe you can work out smarter in the future. you didnt give any real info on your clot but since you are bber look into paget schroder etc.

.

I would like to hear more about this since I had my clot while I was squatting heavy. Mine occurred though inside the right coronary artery. Doctors think maybe a small plaque ruptured and caused the clotting cascade there.

 

[maldorf]

Decent governement site

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/prothrombin-thrombophilia#statistics

This page is about what I have, factor 5 is in there too as well as others.

 

[mikevegas]

Factor 2 is what I have, had my heart attack at age 38. Before everyone jumps on the boat that says the heart attacks we all had was just because of our clotting factors, think again. It is the combination of steroids and the clotting factors that does it. Most people that have these factors go their entire life and not have a single clot and they never know they have it. My mother and Uncle for example are 76 and 79 years old and never had a single issue. Didn't even know it was in the family until me and it was because of me that they got tested.

FACT. You are at risk if you have the disorders, but it's the effects of AAS on blood, clotting, thickness, rbc count that make for a basically guaranteed deadly cocktail.

 

[sluggy]

What causes blood clots, high hematocrit? By the way, sorry your going through this.

Excess estrogen levels increase risk of blood clots.

 

[dragonfire101]

I've had a superficial blood clot in my arm were they used contrast and laid me down with that arm over my head like I was flying like superman and after 40min developed one in the arm side iv was used for contrast. It was simple as taking ibuprofenar high doses for week to go away. Obviously this is different it's a DVT. I didn't want beat a dead horse and make Thor feel bad but I had conversations with him he needs change his mind set regarding dosages previously and now considering his cholesterol numbers were extremely high and HDL was very low. I know it's hard do at 55 but sometimes got take step back and hang up chasing ones former STATS. I'm 38 and learned this around 30 and took up other hobbies to fill a void and just have been doing a more HRT approach since. I'm guilty of not having diet in check though and not doing much cardio lately. Thor your health us more important focus on other things in life that you enjoy.

 

[Joshua Smith]

Im going to vent a little bit. I swear to god I get so fucking frustrated with people on this site sometimes....it freaks me out. My wife has come up to my office and said "Dante you can only state your advice and if they dont want to listen...they arent going to listen".....How many freaking guys have to die on this site for some of you to stand up and take notice, how many heart attacks, and kidney failure, and low ejection fractions do you have to read about until it hits home?! Its like half of you forget about guys dying 10 days after they are gone and your right back injecting the turkey baster.

You can get away with stuff in your 20's and your early 30's that you cannot get away with in your late 30's 40's and 50's! These young guys on this site and on the net who are blasting everything under the sun, trying to convince you that "oh its totally safe that 38 year old guy must have died because of recreational drugs/genetic predisposition/this and that.....its freaking bullshit and you need to grab the bull by the horns here and get your head out of the sand....and JUICE responsibly and respectively with your health in mind or if not when that day happens that you get done a set of barbell rows, the gym starts spinning and you have a massive heart attack.....dont spew the "woe is me...why did this happen to me?" song.....you brought it on and ignored the protocol {bloodwork/heart scans/healthy diet/cardio/no alcohol and recreational drugs} that you were SUPPOSED TO DO to be a steroid using athlete. And ATHLETE is the key word because there are two kinds of people in this sport - junkies and athletes. Decide which one you are.
It pains me to see so many guys who could go around looking like they want to look and using things that gave them the look they wanted yet they ignore blood pressure/bloodwork/cardio/ and deductive reasoning because it feels better with the whole "out of sight, out of mind thought process"....You want to LIVE and juice in your late 30's 40's 50's....you BETTER develop a health plan early that you abide to to hold you in check with if that is your gameplan.....

sorry for the rant....i get irritated sometimes when i feel Ive written about something 50 times over on this site and it feels like nobody is listening until they wake up in a hospital bed

young and impressionable kids who seek advice on how to go about competing, listen and pay attention to the things you say here. i remember you talking about how you knew how to perform this painful yet effective procedure on people to unhinge their lats and make it spread wider. You should take responsibility for your advice here, as people will take it for absolute truth without even questioning it. I see you advocate low doses and being carefull. Yet where will getting involved with a lifelong useage of these hormones lead too? Older vets know where it leads too. As do i. Its not something you can just walk away from free and clear. small dose or otherwise.

 

[dragonfire101]

Before you try to use any anabolic you need to have a blood work including a test for any factor disorder, this is a must.

The percentage of people who have factor V Leiden depends on the population studied. Higher percentages are reported among people of European ancestry compared to people from other continents. In the United States, factor V Leiden has been found in 5 percent of individuals of European ancestry, 2 percent of individuals of African ancestry, 2 percent of individuals of Hispanic ancestry, 2 percent of Native Americans, and less than 1 percent of individuals of Asian ancestry.

Individuals who have inherited one copy of the gene for factor V Leiden (heterozygotes) have a 3- to 10-fold increased risk of DVT or PE; individuals who have inherited two copies of the gene (homozygotes) have an 80- to 100-fold increased risk. Among individuals of northern European ancestry who appear to have inherited a tendency to form blood clots, 20 to 40 percent have been found to carry the factor V Leiden gene.

Less than a year ago his total chol was 342 ! LDL 300 HDL 18 .

I mean thats alarming to have HDL of 18 chol 342. I think any HDL under 30 is alarming regardless of totals. I dont know if he has hypercholesterolemia?

 

[prostock]

thor

Dante you know who i am, we used to speak on the phone somewhat regularly in the mid 90s, I was a subscriber to Hardcore Muscle.... Yes you were always caring and the voice of reason, dont think i didnt hear you all this time, I donated blood, i NEVER went over a gram of test , my cycles were usually 500 test and 300 of some deca or tren or EQ with it. I rarely ever used orals and always took time off, ok so eventually it got to not as much time off but i still never went over 1 gram test and 500 other anabolics, i always took a lot of supps like Omega 3 CoQ10 and a few others, i joined LEF.ORG and use a lot of their stuff, i read a lot and educate myself , i recently had a bad memory episode ( lost almost all short term memory and kept asking what we were doing here to my GF) and was admitted to a hospital where they did CT scans from head to toe and told me i was fine, they found nothing wrong, although i still have no memory of that whole day and night, i had recently donated blood just 2 months ago and was well within range and i took baby aspirin every night before bed with Melatonin and Magnesium, so i am stumped, i had hernia surgery the last week of December and was completely OFF everything for a month before that and 3 months after, so i just went back on 500 test in April and that is why I just didnt see this coming, although come to think of it i DONT drink much plain water and havent for a few years now so thats gonna change, i really would like to say THANK YOU to everyone who commented, your input is appreciated !.... Dante i thought i was being smart and responsible, and i do have a daughter who is grown up now but yea i still want to be a responsible father to her for many more years, PLEASE do tell me what you would do from here on in !..... I know that there has to be a way to manage this and still do a little aas for a few more years, when im 60 ill go to trt and nothing else ! I have NO family history and i never injected in biceps, im just wondering if i can even donate now ? Do they want it if your on a blood thinner?

**********************************************************

I know that there has to be a way to manage this and still do a little aas for a few more years, when im 60 ill go to trt and nothing else



sir why do you feel 60 yr old is when trt should start ? theres no magical number to start just bloodwork evidences.. just wondering your thoughts thanks pro

 

[11111]

young and impressionable kids who seek advice on how to go about competing, listen and pay attention to the things you say here. i remember you talking about how you knew how to perform this painful yet effective procedure on people to unhinge their lats and make it spread wider. You should take responsibility for your advice here, as people will take it for absolute truth without even questioning it. I see you advocate low doses and being carefull. Yet where will getting involved with a lifelong useage of these hormones lead too? Older vets know where it leads too. As do i. Its not something you can just walk away from free and clear. small dose or otherwise.

Yes, and he has repeatedly refused to go into detail as to how to do that (lat manipulation) on the board.

I'm not following where you're going with your post because it doesn't make sense when referring to someone like Dante...

 

[Joshua Smith]

i am not going anywhere with it. sorry. i was just trying to reach out to the young guys and thinking of them. all the smoke and mirrors stuff. i just remember how frustrating all that was. Bringing up concepts then holding back the details. Well of course, you would because it can be profited from. I just think its misleading.

I of course realize this isn't the place to talk about it, because people voluntarily come here to learn about it. And we all do have a choice in what to believe and do. I guess I'm still a bit mad at myself. the path i took. Im venting. and I'm sorry. I should post on the counseling form instead of here. Im not trying to get into conflict. please excuse my post