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All things insulin- my take, opinion and experience.

Bumping this as there have been a lot of questions on insulin recently and new members joining.

As an added layer of where I would start outside of what I have already outlined I would suggest the following:

New to Insulin or where to start:

1. 2 units Humalin R, Humalog or Novolin R pre-workout with 200-400mg injectable carnitine. 25g carbs from Karbolyn or similar intra. This is strictly for shuttling carnitine absorption and nutrients.

2. Once past the above, you can consider advancing to 4-6 units of Humalog pre-workout on larger party days- legs and back. Or weak body parts. 50-75 units of karbolyn or carbs.

After completing the above and gauging your body’s response you can advance to the John Meadow’s program as outlined in my first post which is where I suggest all start who can benefit from insulin or need it (if you need it).

For anyone looking to softly step into insulin the above is what I would suggest even prior to my initial suggestions as many rush into insulin too quickly IMO. Methods always evolve so hope this helps those looking to step in slower.

Updated Stance On Advance Guys and Lantus:

On the other end- my initial stance was tough on lantus but know it does have a place for guys in open and who are advanced.

The key IMO with lantus is ensuring you have cardio in daily, only use trace fats on the day it is used and most importantly on the days it is not used that you utilize GDA’s twice daily.

For guys trying to push up in weight who are advanced and that can truly benefit form insulin-

1. Start with 10 units lantus with meal one on 1-2 high days with trace fats. Utilize short acting insulin in addition still pre and post. This should be maximized before adding lantus.

2. Work up to 15-20 units max two days a week once you have maxed out carbs and short acting insulin.

The goal should be to keep GB in range and not use lantus to offset, but only to push more carbs and increase gastric emptying. If you’re using lantus to keep BG levels in check then you’re using it for the wrong reason IMO.

Can and do guys do more? Absolutely, but same principles apply as above. If I get one more DM on here from someone under 170-200lb asking me how to fix their BG after using 20iu or more lantus I’m going to lose it. 😂 If you’re at that level, 99% chance you don’t need it unless you’re Shaun Claurida. Don’t create a long term problem with a short term solution.

And don’t worry guys who have sent me DM’s- we live and learn. No judgment.

Last closing reminder: while I am a huge fan of insulin used right for the guys who need it. I am forever reminded of what Andrew Vu told me:

“There is no quicker way to lose and blur your lines than abusing insulin.”

Followed by- “many of the top guys now have “insulin head”. 😂

First time I had heard that last one. But has set with me ever since. Be responsible if you’re going to use insulin as it’s hard to go back once you ruin your physique if you abuse it and food IMO.

Enjoy and welcome any top guys or coaches input on here as it’s always evolving. 😎
 
Bumping this as there have been a lot of questions on insulin recently and new members joining.

As an added layer of where I would start outside of what I have already outlined I would suggest the following:

New to Insulin or where to start:

1. 2 units Humalin R, Humalog or Novolin R pre-workout with 200-400mg injectable carnitine. 25g carbs from Karbolyn or similar intra. This is strictly for shuttling carnitine absorption and nutrients.

2. Once past the above, you can consider advancing to 4-6 units of Humalog pre-workout on larger body part days- legs and back. Or weak body parts. 50-75g of karbolyn or carbs.

After completing the above and gauging your body’s response you can advance to the John Meadow’s program as outlined in my first post which is where I suggest all start who can benefit from insulin or need it (if you need it).

For anyone looking to softly step into insulin the above is what I would suggest even prior to my initial suggestions as many rush into insulin too quickly IMO. Methods always evolve so hope this helps those looking to step in slower.

Updated Stance On Advance Guys and Lantus:

On the other end- my initial stance was tough on lantus but know it does have a place for guys in open and who are advanced.

The key IMO with lantus is ensuring you have cardio in daily, only use trace fats on the days it is used and most importantly on the days it is not used that you utilize GDA’s twice daily- AM and PWO is my preferred.

For guys trying to push up in weight who are advanced and that can truly benefit form insulin-

1. Start with 10 units lantus with meal one on 1-2 high days with trace fats. Utilize short acting insulin in addition pre and post. This should be maximized before adding lantus.

2. Work up to 15-20 units max two days a week once you have maxed out carbs and short acting insulin.

The goal should be to keep BG in range and not use lantus to offset high BG levels. Instead, use lantus to push more carbs and increase gastric emptying. If you’re using lantus to keep BG levels in check then you’re using it for the wrong reason IMO.

Can and do heavier advanced guys do more? Absolutely, but same principles apply as above.
If I get one more DM on here from someone under or around 170-200lb asking me how to fix their BG after using 20iu or more lantus I’m going to lose it. 😂 If you’re at that level, there is a 99% chance you don’t need it unless you’re Shaun Claurida IMO. Don’t create a long term problem with a short term solution.

And don’t worry guys who have sent me DM’s- we live and learn. No judgment.

Last closing reminder: while I am a huge fan of insulin used right for the guys who need it. I am forever reminded of what Andrew Vu told me:

“There is no quicker way to lose and blur your lines than abusing insulin.”

Followed by- “many of the top guys now have “insulin” head”. 😂

First time I had heard that last one. But has set with me ever since. Be responsible if you’re going to use insulin as it’s hard to go back once you ruin your physique if you abuse it along with food IMO.

Enjoy and welcome any top guys or coaches input on here as it’s always evolving. 😎
I really need to start typing these longer important post on my computer to eliminate typo’s. 😂 See above edited post on my additional thoughts on insulin.
 
This is awesome, man. Your insight is invaluable.

Do you recommend guys using lantus with rapid insulin on high days also use rapid on its own on “medium” carb days, in combination with GDA’s and other methods for maintaining insulin sensitivity? I’ve been having lots of success with carb cycling pre-slin.
 
This is awesome, man. Your insight is invaluable.

Do you recommend guys using lantus with rapid insulin on high days also use rapid on its own on “medium” carb days, in combination with GDA’s and other methods for maintaining insulin sensitivity? I’ve been having lots of success with carb cycling pre-slin.
It is very dependent on the person. Without knowing your stats and history I can’t give you a solid answer.

What I can say is that you are describing what I outlined in my last post as an advanced insulin cycle which IMO should only be once you have a top physique and are carrying some serious size.

Those guys are using lantus in the AM and fast acting around workout windows as well. They both serve very different purposes when used at that level.

Happy to answer more specific if you want to post up your stats and history. Coming on here as a new member and jumping straight to the deep end on insulin usage is a bit suspect and not how I’d start. But hey, I have had guys post up pics and prove me wrong which I always hope is the case.
 
It is very dependent on the person. Without knowing your stats and history I can’t give you a solid answer.

What I can say is that you are describing what I outlined in my last post as an advanced insulin cycle which IMO should only be once you have a top physique and are carrying some serious size.

Those guys are using lantus in the AM and fast acting around workout windows as well. They both serve very different purposes when used at that level.

Happy to answer more specific if you want to post up your stats and history. Coming on here as a new member and jumping straight to the deep end on insulin usage is a bit suspect and not how I’d start. But hey, I have had guys post up pics and prove me wrong which I always hope is the case.
Sorry brother, long time lurker and just started posting recently. I am an "online coach" and have about 90 1 on 1 clients as well as a few hundred on a subscription-based program that I run. I've sort of been all around the fitness industry, and only recently taken to physique-oriented training, so I am trying to be a sponge when it comes to this stuff.

I'm 34 years old 6'4" and weigh about 250 at 10-12% bf. I would like to compete in classic physique soon, as physique sport specifically isn't something i've specifically delved into before with regards to my training, though i've competed in powerlifting and strongman. I have been on TRT for about 12 years, and used most any androgen I can think of. I'm a big fan of Kurt Havens and Justin Harris, and many of my opinions reflect theirs. I am not a biochemist or anything, but I have a pretty decent understanding of how a lot of drugs work, and also work in emergency medicine. Sorry if this is vague, I just don't want to doxx myself.

Essentially what I am trying to get across is that i'm not some goofball kid who is in over his head, but I also don't want to come off as egotistical or think too highly of myself. You clearly have knowledge I don't, and so I value that a lot. Every week I get messages from guys describing their drug dosages in milliliters instead of milligrams, and if that makes you chuckle and is relatable, then we are probably on the same page.
I really appreciate your advice in here, and would really like to dial my insulin protocol in.

My days are very structured and entirely centered around competing now, so I do not miss training sessions, dosing, or meals. I'm currently eating a vertical diet like variation and carb cycling with 600g on high days, 375g on medium days, and 150-200 on low days. (I know these are starvation numbers at my size, but since I started GH and the PED protocol below, I have been growing so I am hesitant to increase yet, but plan to.) I get a minimum of 12,000 steps in per day, usually around 15,000. I am also interested in longevity to a degree and so I do some v02 max training as well. I closely monitor my Bp and blood glucose. For insulin sensitivity, I use berberine 500mg 3x/day, ALA x500mg and chromium 90mg peri-workout, and injectable L-car 600mg per day before training.

My current PED regimen is:

50mg test e per day
20mg primo e per day
40mg mast e per day
(I know I need to bring these doses up, I am just waiting until progress stalls to titrate instead of blasting arbitrary amount at once.)

10iu GH, split into 2iu pre-training and 8iu pre-bed doses. I abstain from GH on rest days in an attempt to alleviate further insulin resistance.

I have an essentially unlimited amount of Lantus and Humalog on hand, and I want to make the best use of it whilst also prioritizing harm reduction to the extent it's possible.

Sorry if that was too much for a free information post...
 
Currently running 4 iu gh with 500ng test Been training over 20 years and I'm ready to add insulin.Going to start the Meadows protocol you posted.My question is can't I just use glucose tabs instead of the intra shakes?I'm 52 and I have a hiatal hernia so anything heavy while training bloats the heck out of me.Thanks and props on the thread.
 
Currently running 4 iu gh with 500ng test Been training over 20 years and I'm ready to add insulin.Going to start the Meadows protocol you posted.My question is can't I just use glucose tabs instead of the intra shakes?I'm 52 and I have a hiatal hernia so anything heavy while training bloats the heck out of me.Thanks and props on the thread.
You can use the tabs. Just ensure the insulin is covered. I would give unflavored Karbolyn a shot as it’s primarily from rice and potatoes with korn being last. The sweeters get a lot of guys with bloating. No idea why we need to flavor a carb. 😂

Dextrose and other items will be from corn and can cause bloating. But tabs can work as an alternative.
 
Sorry brother, long time lurker and just started posting recently. I am an "online coach" and have about 90 1 on 1 clients as well as a few hundred on a subscription-based program that I run. I've sort of been all around the fitness industry, and only recently taken to physique-oriented training, so I am trying to be a sponge when it comes to this stuff.

I'm 34 years old 6'4" and weigh about 250 at 10-12% bf. I would like to compete in classic physique soon, as physique sport specifically isn't something i've specifically delved into before with regards to my training, though i've competed in powerlifting and strongman. I have been on TRT for about 12 years, and used most any androgen I can think of. I'm a big fan of Kurt Havens and Justin Harris, and many of my opinions reflect theirs. I am not a biochemist or anything, but I have a pretty decent understanding of how a lot of drugs work, and also work in emergency medicine. Sorry if this is vague, I just don't want to doxx myself.

Essentially what I am trying to get across is that i'm not some goofball kid who is in over his head, but I also don't want to come off as egotistical or think too highly of myself. You clearly have knowledge I don't, and so I value that a lot. Every week I get messages from guys describing their drug dosages in milliliters instead of milligrams, and if that makes you chuckle and is relatable, then we are probably on the same page.
I really appreciate your advice in here, and would really like to dial my insulin protocol in.

My days are very structured and entirely centered around competing now, so I do not miss training sessions, dosing, or meals. I'm currently eating a vertical diet like variation and carb cycling with 600g on high days, 375g on medium days, and 150-200 on low days. (I know these are starvation numbers at my size, but since I started GH and the PED protocol below, I have been growing so I am hesitant to increase yet, but plan to.) I get a minimum of 12,000 steps in per day, usually around 15,000. I am also interested in longevity to a degree and so I do some v02 max training as well. I closely monitor my Bp and blood glucose. For insulin sensitivity, I use berberine 500mg 3x/day, ALA x500mg and chromium 90mg peri-workout, and injectable L-car 600mg per day before training.

My current PED regimen is:

50mg test e per day
20mg primo e per day
40mg mast e per day
(I know I need to bring these doses up, I am just waiting until progress stalls to titrate instead of blasting arbitrary amount at once.)

10iu GH, split into 2iu pre-training and 8iu pre-bed doses. I abstain from GH on rest days in an attempt to alleviate further insulin resistance.

I have an essentially unlimited amount of Lantus and Humalog on hand, and I want to make the best use of it whilst also prioritizing harm reduction to the extent it's possible.

Sorry if that was too much for a free information post...
Thanks for all the background. It’s always nice to see guys trying to help guide the younger ones as things are so accessible now in terms of gear and info on how to use it right.

Sadly most younger guys just jump in and don’t care (at least not in the moment) and end up trying to understand things after the fact instead of beforehand.

A few things:

1- Great plan. And you don’t “need” to get your dosages up. Maximize what you are on and increase as needed. It’s hard to gauge without pics but you’re a coach so know when to move that metric.

2. HGH: I personally would split the amounts even. If you want to get super detailed you could do IM pre and Subq at bed.

Getting to your main question- my honest opinion based on your stats, low gear; but most importantly because you want to do classic.

I would not use insulin and think you have other areas to push first. Classic is all about the lines, detail and separation. Once you cross that line into insulin you don’t really come back from that look.

The only place I would personally even consider using insulin in your case would be 2 units pre workout with 400mg injectable carnitine and 25g of Karbolyn intra. This is simply for the carnitine and nothing more really.

Now my opinion aside. Can you use insulin in classic? Yes many guys utilize it. But look at CBUM, then look at someone who uses insulin- Samson. The lines and detail that CBUM have are unmatched. Whereas Samson is full, round and has a different look.

I personally don’t see any need for a classic guy to use lantus. If you need lantus to push up to your weight class for class then this sport probably isn’t for you IMO. Thats not directed at you.

If you do decide you want to run insulin I would only use Humalog pre workout and start low- 4 units to 55g carbs for example. You could even play it safer and only use it on weak or larger bodypart days to start. Legs and back.

But again the above is just my opinion. I know there are guys out there in classic who use lantus. I just personally wouldn’t and based on where you are at I’d push the gear before I even considered insulin.

Now if you decide to do open and want to be a mass monster that’s a different ballgame and you can read my post on how to set that up.
 
Thanks for all the background. It’s always nice to see guys trying to help guide the younger ones as things are so accessible now in terms of gear and info on how to use it right.

Sadly most younger guys just jump in and don’t care (at least not in the moment) and end up trying to understand things after the fact instead of beforehand.

A few things:

1- Great plan. And you don’t “need” to get your dosages up. Maximize what you are on and increase as needed. It’s hard to gauge without pics but you’re a coach so know when to move that metric.

2. HGH: I personally would split the amounts even. If you want to get super detailed you could do IM pre and Subq at bed.

Getting to your main question- my honest opinion based on your stats, low gear; but most importantly because you want to do classic.

I would not use insulin and think you have other areas to push first. Classic is all about the lines, detail and separation. Once you cross that line into insulin you don’t really come back from that look.

The only place I would personally even consider using insulin in your case would be 2 units pre workout with 400mg injectable carnitine and 25g of Karbolyn intra. This is simply for the carnitine and nothing more really.

Now my opinion aside. Can you use insulin in classic? Yes many guys utilize it. But look at CBUM, then look at someone who uses insulin- Samson. The lines and detail that CBUM have are unmatched. Whereas Samson is full, round and has a different look.

I personally don’t see any need for a classic guy to use lantus. If you need lantus to push up to your weight class for class then this sport probably isn’t for you IMO. Thats not directed at you.

If you do decide you want to run insulin I would only use Humalog pre workout and start low- 4 units to 55g carbs for example. You could even play it safer and only use it on weak or larger bodypart days to start. Legs and back.

But again the above is just my opinion. I know there are guys out there in classic who use lantus. I just personally wouldn’t and based on where you are at I’d push the gear before I even considered insulin.

Now if you decide to do open and want to be a mass monster that’s a different ballgame and you can read my post on how to set that up.
Thank you brother, I really appreciate the personalized advice! For some reason when I go to see your posts, it says only some people can view your profile
 
You can use the tabs. Just ensure the insulin is covered. I would give unflavored Karbolyn a shot as it’s primarily from rice and potatoes with korn being last. The sweeters get a lot of guys with bloating. No idea why we need to flavor a carb. 😂

Dextrose and other items will be from corn and can cause bloating. But tabs can work as an alternative.
Brother appreciate you!I'm getting the tabs but will order the unflavored karbolyn and test it out.Thanks again!
 

As veterans, it is our responsibility to guide young athletes who approach us with a receptive, serious, and polite demeanor. If there is no existing thread on the topic, we should permit the creation of one. @bbxtreme @Type-IIx and a few others are doing a great job of consolidating valuable important discussions, topics, and current consensus of these concepts into legible easy to read threads. This pursuit is a noble quest, and their contributions should be immortalized forever. Let us remember and also pay tribute to Basskiller and remember him in the same sense, and acknowledge that science and theories are always subject to change as well.


:)
 
As veterans, it is our responsibility to guide young athletes who approach us with a receptive, serious, and polite demeanor. If there is no existing thread on the topic, we should permit the creation of one. @bbxtreme @Type-IIx and a few others are doing a great job of consolidating valuable important discussions, topics, and current consensus of these concepts into legible easy to read threads. This pursuit is a noble quest, and their contributions should be immortalized forever. Let us remember and also pay tribute to Basskiller and remember him in the same sense, and acknowledge that science and theories are always subject to change as well.


:)

That's fair. I apologize.

Eat sleep train gear.

If you miss your protein shake or GH dose timing by an hour, everything will be fine.

Sleep well, brothers.


1709865956947.png
 
@bbxtreme recently heard on podcast that after GH is injected ,takes four hours to start effect. Do you know if that's true?

Been sub q GH and slin together, thirty mins pre gym, before drinking carbs, protein bcaas etcs... do you think it's good idea to do this to combine the two?

I think slin is useful but not particularly when losing bodyfat is the most important goal. Sure a carb up day it can help. For me don't seem to lose much size , if any, without lack or slin, while dieting hard. Then again, never been truly peeled
 
@bbxtreme recently heard on podcast that after GH is injected ,takes four hours to start effect. Do you know if that's true?

Been sub q GH and slin together, thirty mins pre gym, before drinking carbs, protein bcaas etcs... do you think it's good idea to do this to combine the two?

I think slin is useful but not particularly when losing bodyfat is the most important goal. Sure a carb up day it can help. For me don't seem to lose much size , if any, without lack or slin, while dieting hard. Then again, never been truly peeled

You asked a lot of questions and I don't know the answer to most of them.

Wrt GH dose timing: it's minutiae. If dividing doses helps to reduce sides at higher doses, cool. But 5 or 60 minutes before or after fed or fasted cardio etc etc etc. Just getting in the GH is most of the battle.

Insulin: sounds dumb but YMMV. I use it between cycles to maintain gains. Not cutting or bulking, just maintaining on TRT 125 with GH. This compound can be quite versatile.
 
.

Insulin: sounds dumb but YMMV. I use it between cycles to maintain gains. Not cutting or bulking, just maintaining on TRT 125 with GH. This compound can be quite versatile.
2023 used insulin, usually 10 ius pre workout only, and 210 mgs deca only, for three months and like to think put on appreciable amount of muscle. It was after competition, and wanted to keep mgs low, Lifts and strength imrpoved,went from 220-240, during this time. Some fat gain, not that much.

the huge negative, Suffered severe low mood and depression, due to the fact nandrolone deconate lowers dopamine and rasied prolactin. Didnt know this . Since then I take some sort of androgen with deca, last year was 200-300 masteron. Currently,its dbol. Equal as important , use something like lowers prolacin and riases dopamine like mucuna pruriens, as it does this one two combo, lowering prolactin and raising dopamine, punch

Didnt mean to go off subject but if deca is done solo, it can cause severe depression , even only three months solo at 210 mgs, took nine months for brain chemistry to feel normal again.

back to the slin.........
 

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