Anabolics Vs. Androgens What's truely need?

[Armageddon]

This is in reference to what Magnum referenced in the MM thread about anabolics that are not needed. I was just looking for some insite about what he (Magnum) feels that we can do without. When you said anabolics were you meaning all steroids or specifically anabolics and not androgens? If that's the case then I need to change the thread title. I'm not looking for some great remedy, just some insigt from some one that has obviously been around for some time and has worked within the field.

 

[BALDYLOX]

I am also interested. So i will give it a bump!

Baldy

 

[Magnum]

I will try and answer your question in a more general way and just give you some of my opinions as far as supps go. When I mentioned that there are a lot of things that are being used that don't really contribute to one's physique I was reffering more the ancillary drugs more than steroids. I fear that most of you will be some what disappointed about what I have to say. There are no real secrets to getting big. If there is I would say it's more about what you don't do than do.

IMO steroids are king in building muscle and most likely always will be. Take GH for example. I've known guys over 40 that take it and get pretty decent results as far as a rejuvination drug. A couple of IU's a day is all you need when your older to get good results. Most bodybuilders (younger) will take anywhere from 4 to 9 iu's daily. Most guys expect to make huge gains from taking GH. I've never really known anyone to gain any appreciable amount of muscle from GH alone. Everyone says to take it with gear but how do you know that it's the GH that is working? As far as I'm concerned anything that you take by itself and doesn't work, isn't going to work by adding something to it. Most guys get nothing more from GH than a bit of water retention. If that's what you want then go eat some bacon. It's a hell of a lot cheaper and more fun.

Same for IGF. I did get some fat loss from IGF but I did not gain anything in the way of muscle. It's popular to use IGF, clomid and or HCG to bridge after a cycle and to keep the gains that you have made. 30 days is the norm. So many guys tell me that they lose only a couple of pounds by doing this and their strength is maintained pretty well. Most guys are walking around with a test/epitest ratio of 20:1 or even more. How much do you really think your levels are goint to drop in 30 days? I can tell you by actual blood test results not much at all if any. I friend of mine (who reads this board, hey bro) was remarking to me how surprised he was to have maintained a lot of his mass (not all) over the last 4 months that he has been off. This doesn't surprise me as the body can and will hold on to muscle longer than you think. But if he was taking IGF for example I'm willing to bet he would be praising the effects of the IGF right now and how great it is for maintining mass. Get my drift?

Some guys bridge with anavar or something similar. Waste if time, period. How can anyone think that you are going to maintain gains that you have made from taking 2 grams a week by using 40mgs of anavar a day??? Your either on or off. Your either growing or your not. Things are different today than years ago. Take Arnold for example. He competed once a year and in the off season he got off the drugs and got small. Most guys today don't even compete and want to be big all year round. Nothing wrong with that, but lets face it, when you come off drugs you get smaller. This after all is proof that steroids work in the first place.

Over the years I have witnessed many different steroids cycles from the very complicated to the most basic. People tend to forget that steroids were not invented for bodybuilders. You don't need to lift weights to grow muscle from taking them. Don't get me wrong, it sure helps. In fact it's a must to get huge, but my point is that they are very powerful muscle enhancing drugs. I think that people don''t give them enough credit. They somehow feel if they give them credit then they look like cheaters. Not true, a lot of hard work goes into building a big body, but at the same time they are the guys who take a few d-bol a a shot of deca a week and grow like a weed and to top it off they don't even lift that hard. I'm sure we all know someone out there like that. Well lifes not fair, get used to it. We all have out strong points, some more than others.

IMO test is the best steroid to use for growth. Technically it's not an anabolic steroid, but a male sex hormone. AS were invented to mimic the results of test and minimize the side effects or the secondary sex charactaristics. The problem is that the anabolic and androgenic effects work hand in hand. People tend to feel pretty good on test and get great gains. This is no coincidence. Our bodies already produces it and it knows how to accept it better than any other steroid.

IMO test should be the foundation of a cycle. Throw in another injectable maybe and an oral. NO, orals are not that dangerous. Another misconception. Not to contradict myself, but I know guys who loves deca and d-bol and hardly ever use test. They gets great results and yep, they still able to do the nasty. Another misconception. I'm sure this is not true for everyone.

Test,(any kind) deca, Eq (not as much) d-bol , A-50's ect. These drugs have built most of the mass you see on stage today. I guess I should give honerable mention to trenbolone. This is a weird drug. Very powerful. The late Dan Ducahine once said that no one should ever use it unless they were a serious competitor. I agree. I'd say about 500mg is about a powerful as a gram of test. I think it's too hard on the body in many ways, escpecially if your older. I've known a few guys to complain about an enlarged prostate from it. Even younger guys. Throw it in the last few weeks before a show and that's it.

Getting big is not rocket science. Forget about all these fancy cycles and different ways to take stuff. It's impotant to keep an eye on your BP and take an anti-estrogen only if needed. Stick to the basics and you will grow. I realize that this only touchs upon the subject at hand and a lot more can be said. Hopefully I have not offended anyone here. These are just my opinions and I realize not everyone (maybe no one ) will agree. Even when I disagree with someonew I still respect their opinion. Peace

 

[Iabadman]

Great post Magnum ,

I like when these guys here get the facts from some who knows there shit [so thank you so much ]......................referring to ancillary stuff [ we saw your opion of gh , and igf-1 ] now what about , anti - e's , cortisol blockers , clen , ephedrine , bromocriptine, other PCT stuff,diuretics and of course insulin ?

What are your ideas about cyciling ? What do you think of the 4-6 week cycles [ maybe front loading 1st 10 days ] then going clean or crusiing for 2 or 3 weeks ? [then hitting it again ] Or do you like the long cycles that a guy like Dave Palumbu or Big A promote ? What is better , safer , and smarter here for my boys here in your estimation ?

What else is done that is totally unnessary on your opinion ?


Also maybe you could start a thread or just answer it here [ what ever work for you Big J ] but ideally ,how do you like to see guys train for mass ? Improve weak areas ? ect... And of course ,what is your idea of what a good mass building diet and supp[any that you think make a difference ?] program should be for the competitor? [ maybe write them up some examples ........would be great for them to take what they have learned from Big A , Dante , Massive G ,Phil , Iron Man , razor sharp , and now of course you and come up with a practice that suits them both mentally and physically ........finding an eating / training routine that works for both is the key to a long lasting , rewarding , and effective bbing expirence IMO ]

And guys , for contest prep I strongly urge you [ or your girls ] to pm Magnum about his help . He is in that same class as people like Phil , Skip , and trophin for prep ........and is up there with DC , Massive G , and Phil for off season ...............he is usually booked , but the man is really client friendly , awesome at what he does , and very kind / classy as well health conscience to boot ........If you contact him for help .....you will be happy that you did ............

Happy New year Big J ........great to have you back around and sharing .........Your presence will be greatly appreciated and you will not regret taking the effort to helping the guys here [ they are very good foiks ]Thanks again .....I have the upmost respect for you [ i really appreciate the friendship and guidence that you have given Steph ........hopefully 06 will be her year ]

 

[edge250]

and make sure the test doesnt hurt..........right magnum

 

[edge250]

maybe this is why we need other things to go along with the test??? maybe this is why when i was a broke college student and all i could afford was test for my cycles that i ended up with a ruptured tendon???? things that make ya go hmmmm. i love shootin the shit with ya dude, be up monday.

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.

 

[BigBoyJ]

Very good post, Edge.

 

[phreak]

hey edge,

quick question. interesting what you said about winstrol and tendons... i didn't know it was the bodies reaction to the winny that caused the brittleness; i always thought it was the winny itself. the test and tendons was as well.

i have always loved winstrol for the strength and size (yes size) gains i have gotten from it, but have always taken it with deca to offset the drying of my joints.

i have recently started a 10 weeker of deca and sustanon, and was going to throw in winstrol at 50mg/day starting week four. i figured this would give the deca and sust enough time to lubricate my joints sufficiently, and thought that the two would help me avoid sore/brittle tendons.

but what you said about test and tendons now has me worried, and considering that i am just trying to get over a rotator and knee strain, i am a bit paranoid about injury, especially since i am training with Iron Man's HIT, which involves sets in the 1-5 rep range.

i was going to play it by ear and see how my joints felt by week four, but your post is making me think that i might want to avoid the winny...

should i avoid it?

(just realizing this wasn't such a quick question after all)

 

[flexmaster]

orginally posted by weight77 correct?

maybe this is why we need other things to go along with the test??? maybe this is why when i was a broke college student and all i could afford was test for my cycles that i ended up with a ruptured tendon???? things that make ya go hmmmm. i love shootin the shit with ya dude, be up monday.

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.

 

[Magnum]

and make sure the test doesnt hurt..........right magnum

Haha, Mon is cool Thanks

Interesting thoughts on the test and collagen article. I'm assuming that there are medical studies that you are referring to? I'd like to read them if you can reference them.

You gotta remember though that real world application and lab studies are two different things. If test made your tendons that brittle everyone would be tearing tendons and not just once. Tendon ruptures are more common today than years ago. Most of the time there are warning signs as to when a tendon is going to tear (not always). I think that most guys lift waaaay too heavy. I see it everday in the gym. Even guys who know better. Their ego gets the better of them. People need to remember that bodybuilders are not powerlifters. There is no reason for reps to ever be any lower than 6-8. I personally keep my reps at around 10-12 and for legs I go anywhere between 15 to 30 or more. It's funny because once I upped my reps I also got bigger than ever. Lee Haney said "train don't strain" and there is a lot to be said for that.

Dosages in general have gone way up in the last 15 or so years and along with that comes injuries mainly from guys using too much weight. The tendons can not keep up with the muscle. Add in insulin, clen, anti-estrogens, cortisol blockers, GH, IGF PGF, DNP, pain killers, nubain ect it's no wonder guys are falling apart. I don't think that there is a Doctor on the planet that could honestly tell you what the hell is going on in the body of a man with all these substaces in them.

Test has been used in high doses for many years but it's funny how only lately you hear of guys tearing muscles and tendons. Just this year alone both Gunter and Victor Martinez tore their quads. Branch tore his tricep if I am remembering correctly. The list goes on. Why all of the sudden? Personally I can only guess and I'll pass on it.

 

[LEX]

This is turning into a helluva post guys thanks for the info.

 

[Eatbig2getbig]

Holding onto size?

Magnum...yes I noticed the comment in your post..ha.ha. Over 4 months off and still maintaining decent size and strength. What's surprising is even in my unusual circumstances with work (can't train very much or eat like I normally do at all..and training only 4 days out of every 12) I'm still able to keep alot of size and strength. My body weight remains in the mid 230's down from low 260's and strength remains very close to that of supps. stages. I have never been able to do this post supps. in the past. However, I did a few rotations of some 30 days on and off IGF last year and can't help but think that this paid dividends. Reason being...IGF was the one key difference from years past when my "normal" off supps. body-weight has drastically changed with similar bodyfat levels. I agree with all of your views about AAS, etc. but I do think that IGF has had some kind of long term positive effect for me. Just my two cents.

 

[Magnum]

Magnum...yes I noticed the comment in your post..ha.ha. Over 4 months off and still maintaining decent size and strength. What's surprising is even in my unusual circumstances with work (can't train very much or eat like I normally do at all..and training only 4 days out of every 12) I'm still able to keep alot of size and strength. My body weight remains in the mid 230's down from low 260's and strength remains very close to that of supps. stages. I have never been able to do this post supps. in the past. However, I did a few rotations of some 30 days on and off IGF last year and can't help but think that this paid dividends. Reason being...IGF was the one key difference from years past when my "normal" off supps. body-weight has drastically changed with similar bodyfat levels. I agree with all of your views about AAS, etc. but I do think that IGF has had some kind of long term positive effect for me. Just my two cents.

Sucks to be you right now. IGF is like GH without the conversion. I really don't think that it would do any kind of permanent change to your body as far as a permanent muscle gain. I did get some fat loss though. Your still training and eating fairly well and I think that this is the main reason your able to hold on to your gains so far. BTW, I would think that by now you would have a little more than 2 cents to throw into the pot after working all these hours.

 

[Magnum]

Great post Magnum ,

I like when these guys here get the facts from some who knows there shit [so thank you so much ]......................referring to ancillary stuff [ we saw your opion of gh , and igf-1 ] now what about , anti - e's , cortisol blockers , clen , ephedrine , bromocriptine, other PCT stuff,diuretics and of course insulin ?

What are your ideas about cyciling ? What do you think of the 4-6 week cycles [ maybe front loading 1st 10 days ] then going clean or crusiing for 2 or 3 weeks ? [then hitting it again ] Or do you like the long cycles that a guy like Dave Palumbu or Big A promote ? What is better , safer , and smarter here for my boys here in your estimation ?

Thanks again for the kind words bro.

If you are talking about competitive bodybuilders then I think the more drugs you add the more chance of missing your peak. Each drug had a new side effect and this can get in the way of various aspects of your training, water retention, carb load, sodium levels ect. Like I said before, I have gotten guys and girls both ripped without using GH, clen and ephedra, but this isn't to say that I never use them. Diet is the most important factor in getting ripped for a show. I know people hate to hear this but it's true. I generally do not start using any kind of fatburners until around 6 weeks out. There are exceptions to this.

I have never used cortisol blockers and never will. Insulin is something that I rarely use. Again there are exceptions but almost never with insulin. I think long term use destroys a physique. Diuretics are something that I am very careful with. Not so much because they are dangerous (they are if you have no idea how to use them) but becasue they will flatten out a physique big time if you are not careful. I worked with Eatbig2getbig as far as drying him out for his last show (he won) Credit goes to Edge for all his other training. I used no diuretics on him for that show. Everyone is different though. Ideally it is best to be with that person at the show but I have done it via pictures over the net with success. Bromocriptine for gyno from tren correct? Never had to use it. Once you get gyno getting it cut out is really your only option and most if not all pros have had this done.

As far a cycle length, well this all depends on what your goals are. I know guys who stay on mostly the same stuff all year round and stay big. I know guys who take a 30 day break every 12 weeks or so. In general I would say that you need to be on at least 12 weeks to realize the potential of your cycle.

Couple of comments on show time. If your not ripped 2 weeks out then your not ready. The last 2 weeks is for fine tuning. A lot of times I add calories to fill a person out (I'm very careful !) BUT given the option a I will always rather bring a person in slightly underfed, ripped and dry then having them very full but a little soft. Up on stage the winner is the most ripped all other things being equal. In fact, most of the time a ripped guy will beat a bigger and better gentically gifted guy. Don't believe all the hype about the standard carb up, sodium load, take aldactone for a week, pie filling, insulin taking, bumex popping bullshit! It doesn't work. 99% of the time when you think a pro is holding water it's the opposite. He is flat from too many diuretics. Usually when someone is holding water they are big as a house from all the intercellular water that has spilled. Luke Wood is a prime example of someone who did the standard carup method this year at the Olympia qualifier. He was a shell of his former self. Two weeks later he was huge and full guest posing in Japan. This is not a putdown to Luke. He seems like a great guy, but when will these guys learn? Peace

 

[Magnum]

What are your thoughts on fluoxymestrone (halotestin)? Sounds like you guys are onto a great thread here. And what do you think of taking an occasional week off to allow your connective tissues to repair?

Halo is great for hardness. Androgens make you hard not diet, BUT you have to be ripped for it to show. I take a week off every few weeks (from training). The constant pounding of iron is a helluva lot harder on the joints than grear.

BTW, I would say the average dose is 20 -40 mgs per day, although I know of one pro who took 40 tabs per day for a show. Probabley overkill.

 

[healthfreak79]

Bump this thread for more great useful info. Thanks everyone for your replys.

 

[Carlo]

I'd like to add something if i may...
In my personal experience Test should be used with caution, i believe the older the person is they willbenefit from test more than a younger person, for example I am 32 yo and i only use a low dose test in my cycles and sometimes none, it all depends on what i am using, let's say if i do 600mgs/week of deca i'd add 125mg/week of test enan just to keep test levels elevated and it works fine for me. I've done cycles with test only at 500, 750 and a gram per week and even though I gained the weight i also gained fat and yes my diet was in check! not to mention other nasty sides..I've also learned that doign a low dose test of no more than 250mg/week can help for losing body fat even at 125mg/weekly!
We are all different so we all react differently to AAS, in my case my body responds very well to deca , even at 200mg/week! i get strong and muscular pretty fast too/??? i thought deca was a 'slow builder' but it workd pretty fast for me.

thanks.

C

 

[Magnum]

I'd like to add something if i may...
In my personal experience Test should be used with caution, i believe the older the person is they willbenefit from test more than a younger person, for example I am 32 yo and i only use a low dose test in my cycles and sometimes none, it all depends on what i am using, let's say if i do 600mgs/week of deca i'd add 125mg/week of test enan just to keep test levels elevated and it works fine for me. I've done cycles with test only at 500, 750 and a gram per week and even though I gained the weight i also gained fat and yes my diet was in check! not to mention other nasty sides..I've also learned that doign a low dose test of no more than 250mg/week can help for losing body fat even at 125mg/weekly!
We are all different so we all react differently to AAS, in my case my body responds very well to deca , even at 200mg/week! i get strong and muscular pretty fast too/??? i thought deca was a 'slow builder' but it workd pretty fast for me.

thanks.

C

Good post. I have also used test in that way, just enough to cover yourself with other anabolics you may be using. Back in the day (Arnolds era) test was considered are dirty drug. Remember, steroids were invented because of test's ugly side effects. Guys used mostly deca, primo, D-bol and some a-50. I can say that Arnold relied a lot on orals. (This came straight from a guy who knew him well) I have a feeling these guys took D-bol like candy. It's funny cause these guys imo looked great and you rarley saw any gyno or any degree of water retention on stage. Now, certainly these guys were not required to be shredded back then but Arnold was pretty damn lean for his day. His thighs might have been a tad small but his separation was on par or better than a lot of guys today. Guys today seem to lack that deep separation from years ago. Can anyone say insulin?

 

[Fastandfurious]

I'll give me 2 cents worth on that.

First,i'm not a bodybuilder,so in terms of getting shredded for contests i have no experience.

I'll disagree with some things previously mentioned ,because my experience is very different.

I don't believe test should be the base for any cycle.Test gives me and many other people too many side effects and too little sheer strength and size.I prefer to cycle primo alone than do test/femara/nolva/proscar/inderal/lasix.There's a reason for all the rest of the steroids were developed and this is that test is neither the perfect anabolic neither the perfect androgen.
There may be a reason our own body makes test but there's also a reason it produces 10mg/ed max and not 2 grams a week.A healthy body can only handle so much.

IGF gave me 15 pounds and 5% in all lifts that are with me and will forever stay with me.It gave a slight fat loss but more than that made my muscles fuller,cured a shoulder injury in 10 days (was nagging me for 3 years) and made its presence noticeable despite the other stuff.

Tren @500mg/ew is more than 2-3 grams of test than just 1.I've never gone to 500 to get the results i want because i'm a super responder but @ 300mg/ew it gave me mass and strength 1,75gr of test/ew+30mg dbol/ed didn't give me.
Indeed it's very harsh and should be used with caution at least until strong drugs that negate its side effects are made.

If you're worried about your joints then try to have some real life exercise outside a gym either as cardio or for fun.A hip of someone that runs or a sholuder of someone that boxes or plays tennis or table tennis for fun will rarely get injured by sudden movements during a bench.Try to improve your elasticity and i'm not talking about being a yoga master but if you just do full range of motion exercises and stretch a little a huge percentage of the risks will go away.

Food trully is the cornerstone of any athletic programme.One more pill won't give you what good food or supplemental food will give you.You have to have the building blocks (food) for the construction worker (drugs) to build the house.Otherwise the construction worker will destroy one room to get the bricks to build another and that's not what we want.

Most people will get the results they want on 500mg/ew of primo without having to use anything else than a maybe bit of test to go along with it or maybe proviron.The biggest problem i see is using too many substances that do nohing more than curing side effects of other substances in the mix.Save your money,your liver and kidneys and know what you want.Now,if someone aims for the top then he has to know what he's doing and willing to take the risks.
It's a pitty when i see newbies wanting to use what the champions use and trying their routines.Common sense is very important.

 

[Magnum]

I think that I should clarify a couple of things because I think a few people might have misunderstood my views on test usage. I think that test should be used as a base for most cycles but I am not saying that one should use 1-3 grams per week. Certainly guys do and it works well for them, but everyone is different. For example, I have never (so far ) suffered any hairloss no matter what I use, but I also am not one to use very high doses of anything.

Most people on this board are not competitive bodybuilders. Some are happy just using less androgenic drugs which is fine, although there are sides to anything given a high enough dose. It is certainly possible to build a ton of muscle while keeping your test usage low. Sorry if anyone was confused about what I said.