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Ben Pollack's Mountain of Doggcrapp

FK86

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X, have you tried Jordan Peters approach?
What's weird is that I would plateau much more on DC training. But on Jordan's approach, i can go loooong periods of continually beating log book stuff. Strange i know. It is microloading, but its progress.
For whatever reason I can hype myself up for one failure set pretty easy. But when its three consecutive ones, stuff gets wonky. Even running DC (which i haven't in years), i juuust focused on that first set to failure. If i beat my reps there, I'm all good.

I also think that the older I've gotten the more I had to realize that if I want to log stuff, i need to be accurate and accountable in my sleep and nutrition too. I cant have a shit night and then expect to be prepared to rep 405 on incline bench.

Microloading is underrated. Big jumps in weight and reps occur because neurological adaptations are happening initially. Then our bodies become a smartass and slow everything down to maintain homeostasis. So when someone gets stuck at 315 for 8 reps on an exercise:

315 x 8 = 2520

315 x 9 = 2835 is quite a big jump in training volume.

320 x 8 = 2560 is smaller, but still may be too much.

316 x 8 = 2528 is the most manageable and you can inch your way up to 320.


When first doing a new exercise you obviously take full advantage of the 5-10 lb jumps and multiple rep increases. Microloading is a tool for stalling. And like Jordan said on Fouad's podcast, even if you only add a pound a week to an exercise, that's 50 lb at the end of the year. I'd be happy with that.
 

Pheedno

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How do you set up a weekly split with arms 2x without messing up back and pressing days?
I also do arms twice in this split...

Upper - no bicep
Off
Lower + Bicep
Shoulder-Tricep-Trap(Sarcoplasmic/Pump workout)
off
Upper - no bicep
Lower+Bicep

It rotates differently as you need more recovery days sometimes and volume is varied as well for that purpose but the above is the general set up.
 

KillerStack

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All I have to say is that Ben made the craziest gains I've EVER seen... for an already extremely advanced trainee. It shouldn't have been possible but it was LOL.
 

DOGGCRAPP

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having trouble posting (test post)
 

DOGGCRAPP

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I could not agree more that basic DC is boring....thats why i got so burnt out on talking about it. I cannot even talk about it nowadays. I had that basic setup that i ran everyone thru TO SHOW THEM "this is how hard you have to train" to get continually larger. Every single guy i ran thru that basic way of doing things and it showed them how much they were leaving in the tank previously in their training. But once I got a guy past that...and they got more advanced I did the following with them according to their weak bodyparts....this is what I truly believe in for anyone who has some muscle mass on their frame in the below link.....

As far as shoulders and arms....I really try to push people into high rep heavy weight exercises with shoulders and arms if those are their weak bodyparts...especially shoulders.....heavy weight 15-30 reps especially on fixed exercises (where you dont have to worry about balance) can really bring delts up. Heavy weight high reps on key exercises will bring up biceps and triceps.....but sometimes that goes out the window with people and they keep training on the same "barbells curls", "tricep pushdowns" when 8 years of training has proven those exercises dont deliver what is sought for certain people. I would rather see someone throw the kitchen sink at a bodypart exercise wise 4-6 different exercises over a weeks time for 1-2 all out work sets of 15-20 reps each than ever do 2 exercises for 12 sets....why? Because somewhere in that 4-6 exercise mix there is going to be a mechanical position that is going to make that bodypart react. It might be only 1-2 of the 4-6 exercises but something will "take hold" for lack of better words. Thats a bodybuilders job for his entire career: you absolutely have to think out mechanical positions that you need to be in to bring up weak bodyparts. If you have been training for a decade and you still have weak triceps, you absolutely have to get "outside the box"....go get on a reverse grip bench press and do 20 reps for all your progressive warmup sets and then on your top set, wrap your elbows, get tight like you are going to do a powerlifting meet and do 25-30 reps straight in the reverse grip bench press....your triceps will be smoked! And keep getting progressive with that over time. Go get on a 45 degree incline bench facing away from a high pulley (and with a chain attached to lengthen the cable) do incline 45 degree pushdowns with a 3 second pause in the stretched position for 20-30 reps.....your triceps will be smoked! Get progressive with it over time. Things like that....."get outside the box"


 

juggy38

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I have no problem at all with what anyone does using some of my notions toward training. None. I want people to train the way they want to train.

I did a nice PL/hybrid 12 weeks doing

wendler bench, DC shoulder triceps,
DC thickness

wendler squat, DC hams, DC calves, biceps

wendler OHP, DC chest, DC tris and back width

wendler dead’s, DC quads, calves, biceps

I did 4x a week. I would drop to 1 straight set of accessories during week 4, as fatigue was REAL doing this. But I got strong as fuck
 

FK86

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I could not agree more that basic DC is boring....thats why i got so burnt out on talking about it. I cannot even talk about it nowadays. I had that basic setup that i ran everyone thru TO SHOW THEM "this is how hard you have to train" to get continually larger. Every single guy i ran thru that basic way of doing things and it showed them how much they were leaving in the tank previously in their training. But once I got a guy past that...and they got more advanced I did the following with them according to their weak bodyparts....this is what I truly believe in for anyone who has some muscle mass on their frame in the below link.....

As far as shoulders and arms....I really try to push people into high rep heavy weight exercises with shoulders and arms if those are their weak bodyparts...especially shoulders.....heavy weight 15-30 reps especially on fixed exercises (where you dont have to worry about balance) can really bring delts up. Heavy weight high reps on key exercises will bring up biceps and triceps.....but sometimes that goes out the window with people and they keep training on the same "barbells curls", "tricep pushdowns" when 8 years of training has proven those exercises dont deliver what is sought for certain people. I would rather see someone throw the kitchen sink at a bodypart exercise wise 4-6 different exercises over a weeks time for 1-2 all out work sets of 15-20 reps each than ever do 2 exercises for 12 sets....why? Because somewhere in that 4-6 exercise mix there is going to be a mechanical position that is going to make that bodypart react. It might be only 1-2 of the 4-6 exercises but something will "take hold" for lack of better words. Thats a bodybuilders job for his entire career: you absolutely have to think out mechanical positions that you need to be in to bring up weak bodyparts. If you have been training for a decade and you still have weak triceps, you absolutely have to get "outside the box"....go get on a reverse grip bench press and do 20 reps for all your progressive warmup sets and then on your top set, wrap your elbows, get tight like you are going to do a powerlifting meet and do 25-30 reps straight in the reverse grip bench press....your triceps will be smoked! And keep getting progressive with that over time. Go get on a 45 degree incline bench facing away from a high pulley (and with a chain attached to lengthen the cable) do incline 45 degree pushdowns with a 3 second pause in the stretched position for 20-30 reps.....your triceps will be smoked! Get progressive with it over time. Things like that....."get outside the box"



Why do you think that is? Is it because of the increased time under tension, or is it because the stimulus of 20-30 reps is drastic in comparison to 6-10?
 

KillerStack

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I've always said proportions pretty much never change in an advanced trainee, and if it does the change is tiny. Some agree, many disagree. But as far as I'm concerned, there's only one option: site injecting. This is what guys like Dusty do and I'm sure Ben is considering it as well if he wants to go further with the bodybuilding.
 

Cerberus777

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I love the principle of progressive overload. It seems so logical. Unfortunately, I stall out very quickly on exercises. I saw Jordan Peters talk about progressing on an exercise for months. Hats off to him for being able to do that. I usually find I tap out after about 3-4 sessions. For example I might take incline smith 275x8+3+1 (12) the first go around. Then get 13-14 the second. The third time I might get 15. But the fourth time I might drop back to 14 or be lucky to stay at 15. Once I stall, I will reset the book and move into a higher rep range (drop to say, 225x18+5+3=26), but within 2-3 weeks I am stalled again. The only way to squeak out more reps is the "cheat" and use some body english or rest a bit longer on my RP sets.

I am a TRT guy, so my hormone levels are always the same. And I have been lifting stead since 1984 so I am guessing I have met my genetic peak. But the idea of progressing on the same exercise for 10+ sessions seems absolutely impossible at my age regardless of rep range.
I find it's easier to ad 2.5-5 lbs and shoot for the same 8,3,1 than adding more reps. Eventually the exercise will be lost when I can only do 6,2 and not a third mini set.
 

Gunsmith

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Shelby is doing my diet and Joe Bennett is doing my training -- and I do not recommend it unless you just want to have fun. I'd instead encourage everyone to use a more cohesive system like DC or the MD programs as laid out. When I'm not in prep, I plan to experiment with this some more and see if I can get it polished enough for popular use, but it's just not there yet.
And god I hope Shelby keeps me on after this prep :cool: He's been freaking incredible so far -- never had a coach willing to help me with posing at 5:30 in the morning. I'm really grateful for his guidance as well.
I was wondering about situation like this where a guy would use one coach for nutrition and one for training and I wonder when you separate the two , do you have the nutrition coach building your diet around your training or have the training coach build a program around the nutrition.
I’ve always thought that when using the better coaches that they would prefer that you use their training AND their diet.
 

DOGGCRAPP

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Why do you think that is? Is it because of the increased time under tension, or is it because the stimulus of 20-30 reps is drastic in comparison to 6-10?
I just think there is a large part of the bodybuilding population that triceps and biceps and delts will respond to those heavy inclines, heavy dumbell presses, heavy back movements in the grind it out 6-10 rep range and then there is a large part of the bodybuilding population that doesnt respond to that and they have to get "weird with it" in both rep schemes and 'mechanical positions".....Its kind of like this....virtually every single bodybuilder on this planet legs will respond to 20 rep squats that are progressive. Virtually every single bodybuilders legs will respond to heavy high rep leg presses in the 16-30 rep range if he is progressive with it. Think if that guy lifted for 12 years in a gym that he could only do leg extensions and hack squats and he did those for 8-10 reps, because thats all he knew and what his body was limited to responding to. He is limited. I virtually guarantee within a year of being introduced to 2 new mechanical positions (deep squats for 20 reps) and deep leg presses for 16-20 reps....his legs are going to blow the hell up. That kind of mentality has to be introduced to each and every weak bodypart. Ive seen that happen on advanced bodybuilders on "rack chins" where they had a developed but somewhat normal back but never really found that width exercise that took them to a new level....then they get into rack chins and just "get it" how its supposed to be done...and their back width transforms. I like to use leg press as an example alot because I could take any guy in this forum and ask him "hey what can you leg press for 16 reps?" and they will proudly tell me their answer (lets say 700 just for hypothetical reasons)....I bet any money i can get in that guys head and WILL him to someway somehow take that 700lbs and get 30 reps out of it...its pure willpower.... there is no balancing of bar needed...we are going to wrap your knees and you are going to go to 12 (then 5 deep breaths with knees slightly bent), 18 (then 5 deep breaths with knees slightly bent) 23 (he is going to be doubting himself here but he is going to do 5 deep breaths with knees slightly bent) 25, 27, (breath) 28,(breath) 29,(breath) 30. And he will make it to 30 with sheer fucking willpower.....and its going to feel like he got hit by a Ford 350 but he made it....when he previously thought he could not. Thats the kind of mentality alot of people should take into weak bodypart training....especially if you can find a movement to take balancing the bar out of it.

Weak shoulders? Wrap up your elbows like this is going to be a max effort 6 reps so your triceps dont fatigue first...and bomb out a 16-30 on a shoulder press machine with high reps and heavy weight and your delts will have no other recourse but to respond to that over time. Alot of people look at a shoulder lateral machine and they get one exercise out of it. I face in, i face out, I face in with one arm at a time, I face out with one arm at a time, Ive even found one where i stood in front of it (Panetta) and did a lateral just holding the handle. Every one of those is a slightly different mechanical position and every single one of those except the standing one...I ended up with the whole stack with gympins and plates or dumbells hanging off of it getting 20-30 straight or 20-30rp.

Weak hamstrings? Alot of guys do the lying leg curls, seated leg curls, (or stiff legs) for eons and have weak hamstrings and just think "ok it is what it is"....."thats it".....go try putting your back on a 12 inch https://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-...MI3IPPsOmZ7wIVjh6tBh3Cygs0EAQYAiABEgL1BPD_BwE with your butt on the ground, but your heel buried into a flat bench and do one legged glute bridges while holding a dumbell on your chest for 20 reps (progressive over time).....your hamstrings will be freaking destroyed and there might not be another exercise you have ever done that puts more muscle mass on your hamstrings than that one in your life. "outside the box"....things like that....its a bodybuilders job to think this stuff out
 

danieltx

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I just think there is a large part of the bodybuilding population that triceps and biceps and delts will respond to those heavy inclines, heavy dumbell presses, heavy back movements in the grind it out 6-10 rep range and then there is a large part of the bodybuilding population that doesnt respond to that and they have to get "weird with it" in both rep schemes and 'mechanical positions".....Its kind of like this....virtually every single bodybuilder on this planet legs will respond to 20 rep squats that are progressive. Virtually every single bodybuilders legs will respond to heavy high rep leg presses in the 16-30 rep range if he is progressive with it. Think if that guy lifted for 12 years in a gym that he could only do leg extensions and hack squats and he did those for 8-10 reps, because thats all he knew and what his body was limited to responding to. He is limited. I virtually guarantee within a year of being introduced to 2 new mechanical positions (deep squats for 20 reps) and deep leg presses for 16-20 reps....his legs are going to blow the hell up. That kind of mentality has to be introduced to each and every weak bodypart. Ive seen that happen on advanced bodybuilders on "rack chins" where they had a developed but somewhat normal back but never really found that width exercise that took them to a new level....then they get into rack chins and just "get it" how its supposed to be done...and their back width transforms. I like to use leg press as an example alot because I could take any guy in this forum and ask him "hey what can you leg press for 16 reps?" and they will proudly tell me their answer (lets say 700 just for hypothetical reasons)....I bet any money i can get in that guys head and WILL him to someway somehow take that 700lbs and get 30 reps out of it...its pure willpower.... there is no balancing of bar needed...we are going to wrap your knees and you are going to go to 12 (then 5 deep breaths with knees slightly bent), 18 (then 5 deep breaths with knees slightly bent) 23 (he is going to be doubting himself here but he is going to do 5 deep breaths with knees slightly bent) 25, 27, (breath) 28,(breath) 29,(breath) 30. And he will make it to 30 with sheer fucking willpower.....and its going to feel like he got hit by a Ford 350 but he made it....when he previously thought he could not. Thats the kind of mentality alot of people should take into weak bodypart training....especially if you can find a movement to take balancing the bar out of it.

Weak shoulders? Wrap up your elbows like this is going to be a max effort 6 reps so your triceps dont fatigue first...and bomb out a 16-30 on a shoulder press machine with high reps and heavy weight and your delts will have no other recourse but to respond to that over time. Alot of people look at a shoulder lateral machine and they get one exercise out of it. I face in, i face out, I face in with one arm at a time, I face out with one arm at a time, Ive even found one where i stood in front of it (Panetta) and did a lateral just holding the handle. Every one of those is a slightly different mechanical position and every single one of those except the standing one...I ended up with the whole stack with gympins and plates or dumbells hanging off of it getting 20-30 straight or 20-30rp.

Weak hamstrings? Alot of guys do the lying leg curls, seated leg curls, (or stiff legs) for eons and have weak hamstrings and just think "ok it is what it is"....."thats it".....go try putting your back on a 12 inch https://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-...MI3IPPsOmZ7wIVjh6tBh3Cygs0EAQYAiABEgL1BPD_BwE with your butt on the ground, but your heel buried into a flat bench and do one legged glute bridges while holding a dumbell on your chest for 20 reps (progressive over time).....your hamstrings will be freaking destroyed and there might not be another exercise you have ever done that puts more muscle mass on your hamstrings than that one in your life. "outside the box"....things like that....its a bodybuilders job to think this stuff out
So spot on Dante.

The biggest trap bodybuilders fall in to is the mandatory exercise dogma. Guys hear you should do XYZ and spin their wheels with no progress for years but keep after it because the masses think it's what a bodybuilder is supposed to do.

Muscular hypertrophy is about traumatizing the target muscle and it doesn't matter if you use a barbell / cable / machine; doesn't matter if you do it seated / standing / lying down; just find the best versions of movements for your body and I promise you'll make the gains you've been looking for.
 

juggy38

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Dante, if your doing your 3 way split, and do that nasty leg press set of 30, I think you recommended 2 more sets of paused smith squats for that workout total quad volume?

can most guys recover doing that quad workout every 4th or 5th day?
 

Ben Pollack

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I was wondering about situation like this where a guy would use one coach for nutrition and one for training and I wonder when you separate the two , do you have the nutrition coach building your diet around your training or have the training coach build a program around the nutrition.
I’ve always thought that when using the better coaches that they would prefer that you use their training AND their diet.

I agree with you, but I asked Shelby and he said to stick with Joe's program for now, so that's what I'm doing. If Shelby decides it would be better to take a different route with regard to training, I'd obviously make that change. IMO diet is the most important aspect of bodybuilding so the diet coach should have the final say on everything.
 

DOGGCRAPP

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Dante, if your doing your 3 way split, and do that nasty leg press set of 30, I think you recommended 2 more sets of paused smith squats for that workout total quad volume?

can most guys recover doing that quad workout every 4th or 5th day?
There i think you would have to do the leg press last because your going to be slaughtered after it.....so i would do squats first and the leg press dead last and get the heck out of the gym....but if i remember right Juggy your a bigger dude and I seriously would suggest this for you https://www.instagram.com/p/BuFjRBQniJv/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
 

juggy38

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juggy38

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I agree with you, but I asked Shelby and he said to stick with Joe's program for now, so that's what I'm doing. If Shelby decides it would be better to take a different route with regard to training, I'd obviously make that change. IMO diet is the most important aspect of bodybuilding so the diet coach should have the final say on everything.

ben is your current spilt secret?

I remember a few videos of joe had Terrance doing

pull
Push
Off
Legs
Arms
Off
 

Ben Pollack

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ben is your current spilt secret?

I remember a few videos of joe had Terrance doing

pull
Push
Off
Legs
Arms
Off
I don't think it is, Joe's just working on revamping his site before posting it:

Pull
Arms
Off
Delts (+ arms pm)
Legs
Push (+ delts pm)
Off

Off days calves and "abs" (vacuums and practicing quarter turns, Shelby doesn't want any direct ab work).
 

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