Body Building and drugs, an old farts perspective

oldfella · Feb 9, 2008

OK, so we all know that the AAS use in sports is well if not over publicised and sensationalised. Especially among our BBing community!

What has me alarmed these days are the number of Noobs coming to Pro Muscle and posting as their first or second posts, HOW DOES THIS CYCLE LOOK? WHAT DRUGS CUT YOU UP THE BEST? WHICH ORALS WORK BEST?....etc, etc. ad nauseium! Then to find out they are teens as well!

So I thought, and maybe I'm just pissing up a tree here that it might be time to at least say something about it!

AAS are not the way to go about training and certainly are no shortcut to anything except health and endocrine system trouble for the young and naieve. Hell even experienced lifters/BBers get into diabolical trouble with these drugs from time to time. It is more like going to the casino on a regular basis, you will lose more than you will ever win if you do it long enough, it is called "THE ODDS" Well the odds are greatly stacked against you when dealing with AAS use! Your chances are better at the crap table guys!!

Unless you are a competitive BBer then I say you really do not need to use these illegal and often dangerous substances. You really need to do a ton of research and become aware of the hazards. You need to be informed of the risks, both legality wise and health wise! If you are in your teens you have no business what so ever even contemplating a cycle. Hell I was well in my thirties before I touched my first shot of test. I have only used orals once and I can honestly say I was no better off for it! I have learned over the years to use caution and common sense. There is a time to use and a time to say no. I have gone years without doing cycles and still have a good solid foundation of hard earned powerful muscle, this is because I spent years of training and eating correctly.......DRUG FREE!!

You younger and some older first timers think this is easy?? You think this is a game of AWW what the fuck, I'll just do a cycle of this and that and some of the other shit thrown in and get bigger??? YOU ARE ALL WRONG!! This is a waiting game, it is about making sound choices in nutrition and wise training methods, it is about maintaining good health and getting bigger and stronger on your own efforts, not with drugs. YES IT CAN BE DONE! PHIL HERNON has some incredible guys under his guidance that are drug free, they don't make excuses, thye don't whine about what the other guys in the gym are lifting, they get on with it. While I have few regrets about my path in life or my choice to become a Body Builder if I could go back in time and apply all the knowledge and experience I have gained and start over, I would never have touched a mg of juice. We have some excellent legit, safe supps out there that perform on par with some of the not so safe illegal drugs.

All I want you you younger and some older first timers out there to do is really think about your choices, this is no game, it is your health you are about to fuck with. It can lead to irreversable trouble with your endocrne systems. Just stop and think, do you want to live longer and have a great quality of life?? If yes, then for the most part you rewally need some guidance on nutrition and training. This board has some of the most knowledgable people in the world at your disposal, listen to them. This board also has some of the best trainers in the business as well as current and ex top level professional body builders of all time, listen to them, heed the advice, do not go blindly into the night on some magical quest for a bigger body, pay your dues and put in the lifestyle, then and only then if you want to go to the next level.......it becomes a matter of being aware and informed so you can make the best decision possible for a better outcome.

And in our world, more is not better.........less is better!! Just think about it please!

b-boy · Feb 9, 2008

damn oldfella thank you! I have been noticing the same trend going on recently on this board and its about time someone took the time to post a thought, many will ignore your post but hopefully a lucky few will read and actually understand what you are trying to tell them! I like you was exactly 30 yrs old before i began my supplement regimine, i built a damn good foundation that i will probably always have (unless i just have shit test levels later on in life), I can maintain my muscle very good, because i built that muscle the LONG HARD WAY. anyway bro great post, and I for one thought it was about time for a good post like that.

KillerStack · Feb 9, 2008

Oldfella, would you say that you would discourage anyone of trying to become a top competitive bodybuilder or a top pro? Unfortunately, with the way the sport works, you don't really have time to wait until your 30's to start supplementing if you want to realize your full potential.

Unfortunately a guy with these types of aspirations would have to make a choice pretty early on and hope he didn't regret it later.

STEVO 47 · Feb 9, 2008

Killer, he did state that unless your competittive bb. I can see both points
though.

KillerStack · Feb 9, 2008

STEVO 47 said:
Killer, he did state that unless your a competittive bb.

Ah, sorry, I missed it.

oldfella · Feb 9, 2008

STEVO 47 said:
Killer, he did state that unless your a competittive bb.

Thanks stevo but I will answer KS, No i would not discourage anyone from becoming a top level bber or professional at any sport, providing they had the gifts to do so! But I am talking about all the vanity trainers out there and all the young guns that think a needle is the fast lane to greatness. I would explain to any aspiring body builder that you need to consider your choice very carefully, there are high prices to pay to become a top level bber. So make damn sure it is what you really wnat in life, and then if you get that far with your health intact what are your real rewards for a lifetime of drug abuse and pain??? Does it weigh out??? That is all I would say!!

b-boy · Feb 9, 2008

KillerStack said:
Oldfella, would you say that you would discourage anyone of trying to become a top competitive bodybuilder or a top pro? Unfortunately, with the way the sport works, you don't really have time to wait until your 30's to start supplementing if you want to realize your full potential.

Unfortunately a guy with these types of aspirations would have to make a choice pretty early on and hope he didn't regret it later.

man killerstack that is the million dollar question? do I have what it takes to be a professional bodybuilder, ask 200 people on your average message board and probably 130 will say yes

this is the great trap, everyone thinking "im going to be a pro one day" man the odds are very slim to none that its going to happen, but people will always believe in themselves so 15 yrs down the line joey blow who started juicing at 17 is still battling to make top 5 at a national level show and still thinking " just a couple more pounds of muscle and i can do this" this is the male eggo talking and will manipulate your life right in front of your eyes and you never even notice it, small cycles turn into huge never ending cycles cause you figure thats what it takes to become a pro, and the crazy thing is that if you got what it takes, then at your very first bodybuilding show several judges that just got through looking at you will make the point to find you after the show to tell you that you have what it takes and to move on to the next level and try and become a pro! Trust me if people aren't finding you after the show to tell you what they thought of you then you probably aren't ever going to become a pro! and within your first three shows if you can't win the overall or at the very least your class at a very competitive state show then don't bother going further in my opinion! you will just be taking up space on a highly competitive stage, now everyone doesn't come in on the money every single outing but even at your worse showing people will notice your potential if its there, conditioning can always be improved on, but genetic shape and structure for the most part can't be. All i ask is just be honest with yourself, and ask do i really have the physique that can one day walk across a pro stage? if you and others truly believe that then by all means handle your business and get er done, but if the answer is no then stop the drugs and live a happy and healthy life that your loved ones will thank you for later, you don't have to be the biggest guy in your local gym, how about being the leanest and healthiest guy in the gym, let the big high blood pressure, i can hardly breathe big guys play their own russian roulete game.. be smarter than that.

eroc613 · Feb 9, 2008

I agree with old fella on about 90% of what believes. But "use" is alot different than "abuse". And even though you may have had bad expirences with your use, you have not had the same knowledge that you have now. Meaning your bad expirence may have been from lack of knowledge at the time.

But the #1 thing you ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT that if you use aas and don't train effectively, and eat the right kind and AMOUNT. You are blowing your money. There is no magic pill.

And yes I agree there are alot of people asking about their cycles lately, which is very ignorant. The new people should be here for EXTRA information, not the soul source. And nobody asks about their diet!!! That should be their first question!!

KillerStack · Feb 9, 2008

b-boy said:
man killerstack that is the million dollar question? do I have what it takes to be a professional bodybuilder, ask 200 people on your average message board and probably 130 will say yes this is the great trap, everyone thinking "im going to be a pro one day" man the odds are very slim to none that its going to happen, but people will always believe in themselves so 15 yrs down the line joey blow who started juicing at 17 is still battling to make top 5 at a national level show and still thinking " just a couple more pounds of muscle and i can do this" this is the male eggo talking and will manipulate your life right in front of your eyes and you never even notice it, small cycles turn into huge never ending cycles cause you figure thats what it takes to become a pro, and the crazy thing is that if you got what it takes, then at your very first bodybuilding show several judges that just got through looking at you will make the point to find you after the show to tell you that you have what it takes and to move on to the next level and try and become a pro! Trust me if people aren't finding you after the show to tell you what they thought of you then you probably aren't ever going to become a pro! and within your first three shows if you can't win the overall or at the very least your class at a very competitive state show then don't bother going further in my opinion! you will just be taking up space on a highly competitive stage, now everyone doesn't come in on the money every single outing but even at your worse showing people will notice your potential if its there, conditioning can always be improved on, but genetic shape and structure for the most part can't be. All i ask is just be honest with yourself, and ask do i really have the physique that can one day walk across a pro stage? if you and others truly believe that then by all means handle your business and get er done, but if the answer is no then stop the drugs and live a happy and healthy life that your loved ones will thank you for later, you don't have to be the biggest guy in your local gym, how about being the leanest and healthiest guy in the gym, let the big high blood pressure, i can hardly breathe big guys play their own russian roulete game.. be smarter than that.

You are absolutely right. I would even go further and say that someone with pro potential shows it a few short weeks after picking up his first weight. And often even before training at all. After your first show you should have tons of people coming up to you saying you have IT.

if the answer is no then stop the drugs and live a happy and healthy life that your loved ones will thank you for later

This may be good advice but most here have decided drugs are worth it even without having any real competitive potential (as in going pro or winning big shows). And that is absolutely fine with me. As long as you aren't fooling yourself.

huzurdaddy · Feb 9, 2008

probably a bad reference to throw out there, but way back when a buddy of mine competed in a show in Houston where Craig Titus won one of his first shows... (may have been the first one that really got him on his road upwards). My friend was on gear and was big and jacked, etc... but really soft and just didnt have it all down diet wise, etc.. We were in high school, so he and craig were probably 18 years old or so. At that show, where craig blew everyone out of the water - it was EXTREMELY obvious Craig would be the only one to make it out there. You could just see it in his physique. Light years ahead, due to his genetics obviously and his training, etc... My friend also told me that Craig was talking about the insane amounts of gear he was using, a bottle of Test per week (1g), stacked with lord knows what. My friend couldn't believe the amounts of drugs these guys were taking, and i think he realized that he was nowhere near comitted or had the genetics to compete at that level. This was in the late 80s, so no message boards, no PCT, "tapering" was the way to go, etc... Hell, we all used to go to Mexico and get bags of the stuff for pennies on the dollar - i even used Parabolan (Tren) at age 18 not even knowing what the hell it was (and probably messed myself up too - in fact, it scared the hell out of me when i couldnt get a boner with my girlfriend so i quit it all).

My point being, as oldfella said - the future pros are EVIDENT from the gate. You can just see it. Now, Craig was on massive amounts of gear, and i'm sure that helped - but at age 18 genetics is a huge factor. No drugs are going to create the underlying physical infrastructure you have that the judges want to see. Obviously, though - and especially now - you pretty much have to commit to that gear lifestyle for competitive BBing just to be in the game. But that stuck in my mind way back then that certain people just have it in their genes, if you do people will notice and you might have a shot - if you don't (as in my friend's case ) - then you're messing yourself up at an early age putting all those harsh chemicals in your body when most likely you don't have a chance.

hope i made sense.. i'm in no way anywhere near BB potential, i do it for personal appearance and SMALL infrequent cycles to help my augment my training at age 36 after training for 20+ years. But i'm with oldfella - throwing out "i wanna do prop/tren/mast/var/dbol/winny/blah blah blah" but i'm 19 is crazy. Unless of course, you got what it takes and you're winning shows and people are all over you.

just my .02

thebrick · Feb 9, 2008

Great post OldFella! I never understood why these kids want to take gear when they already have naturally high test levels and can makes tons of good solid progress naturally. Good solid gains that will stay with them for life as long as they stay with a healthy lifestyle. These compounds are powerful. They have an upside AND a downside. The thought of some teenager or 20-something committing their life to HRT by necessity at such a young age makes me shake my head. True... there is that 1 in 1,000 that has the potential to POSSIBLY make it to the top. My advice as another "old fart"

stay healthy and don't quit your day job.

Matte220 · Feb 9, 2008

great post Oldfella!

RV63T · Feb 9, 2008

NO CONTRIBUTION

dragonfire101 · Feb 9, 2008

oldfella said:
OK, so we all know that the AAS use in sports is well if not over publicised and sensationalised. Especially among our BBing community!

What has me alarmed these days are the number of Noobs coming to Pro Muscle and posting as their first or second posts, HOW DOES THIS CYCLE LOOK? WHAT DRUGS CUT YOU UP THE BEST? WHICH ORALS WORK BEST?....etc, etc. ad nauseium! Then to find out they are teens as well!

So I thought, and maybe I'm just pissing up a tree here that it might be time to at least say something about it!

AAS are not the way to go about training and certainly are no shortcut to anything except health and endocrine system trouble for the young and naieve. Hell even experienced lifters/BBers get into diabolical trouble with these drugs from time to time. It is more like going to the casino on a regular basis, you will lose more than you will ever win if you do it long enough, it is called "THE ODDS" Well the odds are greatly stacked against you when dealing with AAS use! Your chances are better at the crap table guys!!

Unless you are a competitive BBer then I say you really do not need to use these illegal and often dangerous substances. You really need to do a ton of research and become aware of the hazards. You need to be informed of the risks, both legality wise and health wise! If you are in your teens you have no business what so ever even contemplating a cycle. Hell I was well in my thirties before I touched my first shot of test. I have only used orals once and I can honestly say I was no better off for it! I have learned over the years to use caution and common sense. There is a time to use and a time to say no. I have gone years without doing cycles and still have a good solid foundation of hard earned powerful muscle, this is because I spent years of training and eating correctly.......DRUG FREE!!

You younger and some older first timers think this is easy?? You think this is a game of AWW what the fuck, I'll just do a cycle of this and that and some of the other shit thrown in and get bigger??? YOU ARE ALL WRONG!! This is a waiting game, it is about making sound choices in nutrition and wise training methods, it is about maintaining good health and getting bigger and stronger on your own efforts, not with drugs. YES IT CAN BE DONE! PHIL HERNON has some incredible guys under his guidance that are drug free, they don't make excuses, thye don't whine about what the other guys in the gym are lifting, they get on with it. While I have few regrets about my path in life or my choice to become a Body Builder if I could go back in time and apply all the knowledge and experience I have gained and start over, I would never have touched a mg of juice. We have some excellent legit, safe supps out there that perform on par with some of the not so safe illegal drugs.

All I want you you younger and some older first timers out there to do is really think about your choices, this is no game, it is your health you are about to fuck with. It can lead to irreversable trouble with your endocrne systems. Just stop and think, do you want to live longer and have a great quality of life?? If yes, then for the most part you rewally need some guidance on nutrition and training. This board has some of the most knowledgable people in the world at your disposal, listen to them. This board also has some of the best trainers in the business as well as current and ex top level professional body builders of all time, listen to them, heed the advice, do not go blindly into the night on some magical quest for a bigger body, pay your dues and put in the lifestyle, then and only then if you want to go to the next level.......it becomes a matter of being aware and informed so you can make the best decision possible for a better outcome.

And in our world, more is not better.........less is better!! Just think about it please!

You always give great advice Bro. Unfortunately I'm beginning to think many will not listen because of a bigger picture. Some will be able to make the right choices despite what we have been taught.

Link to my explanation

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32722

donjoy · Feb 9, 2008

Great post oldfella! I think you were the first person who gave me advice when I joined this board and it has not failed me at all. Like many people in my age range (23) who stumble upon this board, I had a fairly solid foundation of training, a tiny bit of knowledge about supplementation, little if any smarts when it came to AAS use, and not a fucking clue about diet! I came here thinking that if I read up a bit about drugs, I would break through the plateau that I had been stuck at for the better part of a year. So I spent the better part of 6 months reading about all sorts of AAS, flirting with the idea of different first time cycles, and planning everything out to account for every single injection along with PCT.

The end result after actually reading what people on this board had to say was that I pretty much decided to stay away from AAS for a long time if I do in fact ever decide to use them at all. First was my fear of messing up my endocrine system and not having the desire to have sex like so many horror stories you hear about. More importantly perhaps was not that my desire to have a great physique changed, but rather I realized that given my age and natural test levels I could easily achieve that look with the proper DIET and training. So I took note of what Phil had told others about overtraining and realized that the workouts they give you in FLEX are total crap. Big A's growth principles helped a GREAT deal as well. With regard to cutting fat, I actually put into play a regimen of early morning cardio on an empty stomach. Finally I got my diet in check, and I have not looked back since. The only supplements I take are a multi, a protein shake, and two caps of kre-alkalyn a day. The plateau I once struggled with has been surpassed with little effort once all of these changes came into play.

To conclude a somewhat long rant, I want to say thanks to those like you oldfella who keep us young ones in check (if we are ever smart enough to listen that is). Once I finish paying for my law school applications I will try to get a digital camera and actually get some pictures up to prove that I'm not just jive talking. I only hope that others will heed these words and do their homework before creating a thread asking for advice about their oral only winny cycle!

bigshadow · Feb 9, 2008

Great Post OldFellow! I completely agree! You don't just see it on the boards though. You see this same mindset by teens and young guys at the gym too. I'm in my mid 30's and still haven't done real aas...and for me the risks outway the rewards... If I want to compete one day then maybe... but I'm quite happy with my physique at 6'0" 250lbs and 36" waist. I'm really quite content.

Think back to highschool though. For me, when I was in highschool, I was 6'0" and 135lbs at 16yrs. of age. I lifted weights for only TWO reasons. Impress the girls

and to keep other highschool kids from F'ing with me. Those were my two biggest motivators in the gym. Lots of kids in highschool want to be the top dog- aka... alpha male. Competing in bodybuilding may not be motivating their desire.

Phidias · Feb 9, 2008

b-boy said:
everyone thinking "im going to be a pro one day" man the odds are very slim to none that its going to happen, but people will always believe in themselves so 15 yrs down the line joey blow who started juicing at 17 is still battling to make top 5 at a national level show and still thinking " just a couple more pounds of muscle and i can do this" this is the male eggo talking and will manipulate your life right in front of your eyes and you never even notice it, small cycles turn into huge never ending cycles cause you figure thats what it takes to become a pro

...

even at your worse showing people will notice your potential if its there, conditioning can always be improved on, but genetic shape and structure for the most part can't be. All i ask is just be honest with yourself, and ask do i really have the physique that can one day walk across a pro stage? if you and others truly believe that then by all means handle your business and get er done, but if the answer is no then stop the drugs and live a happy and healthy life that your loved ones will thank you for later, you don't have to be the biggest guy in your local gym, how about being the leanest and healthiest guy in the gym, let the big high blood pressure, i can hardly breathe big guys play their own russian roulete game.. be smarter than that.

Guys won't listen to you,

but thanks anyway b-boy... what a great post you just wrote, SO wise...

It's a thing to chase a dream at 20, but when you find yourself still living a bohemian life 10 years later, with absolutely no perspective of glory, and finally realize it is time to focus on something else that BB, that's precisely when it might be too late...

The choices we make early in life determine a lot of what happen to us years later

Thanks for having started this thread, Oldfella.

Bloodyshins · Feb 9, 2008

Again, great post.
Remember the real reason why AAS were changed to Schedule III back in the AS Control Act.....b/c it was trickling down to the high schools.....Which I think is happening again. Viola' The huge crack down on AAS. The congressional hearings...which I think is crazy. Since when does Congress have ANY saying in a recreational sport...but that is another story.

I think society is a big probelm with why young people want to jump on a boat load of juice. Hell, I thought that back in the 90's. I wanted to jump on as soon as I finished high school, when I found the boards. circa 96/97. Luckly back then on Anabolex some intelligent people posted some similar posts and with the Advice of Flex I decided to hold off till 23. I researched for 5 years before I took the plunge. Looking back..I wish I would have waited till 30. I have not touched anything in 6years and am not taking it lightly if I would ever desire to do it again.
I am not a pro. I do not have pro potential. Do I have genetics to become very strong and bigger than average. Yes. I was blessed with a large bone structure (although hips are too wide...DAMN IT!) and a high about of type II muscle fiber.
I think alot of people out there need to take a step back. Examine yourself and be honest. Is it worth it? Its not easy.
Shit for me to get back in the gym, fat, weak after 3 years off...was hard. It is hard. After being used to being one of the stronger, bigger guys at the gym. now being big, but fat and weak...the temptation to jump on a boat load is HUGE. Whats keeping me from doing it.... risks...legally, health..etc.
THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET. I figure hard work, diet, get to my goal weight and rexamine. supplement then...maybe? maybe not.

Younger Guys (shit, like I'm old...30.hahaha, I feel like it) please listen to these posts. Research. Find a mentor. Work Hard.
DO NOT be a musclehead. Be a bodybuilder. There is a difference.

Dr.S · Feb 9, 2008

I have to disagree with one point here--- it seems the attitude many of you have is "You should only use gear if you have pro BB'er potential". So my question--- why do so many of you think it's ok to use gear if you have great BB genetics? I do agree that most people who use gear don't "need" to use gear. A sound diet combined with some of the wonderful supplements available today will provide nice results

So I'm curious to hear some responses-- those who think gear should be used mainly by guys with Pro BBer potential-- what is your reasoning here?

Bloodyshins · Feb 9, 2008

I think the point is, unless you have pro potential. Why go over board. Why use 2g's a week if you can make gains and look great on 700mg...just an example. Thats what I mean. Too many people thinking all they have to do is take a shit load of Hormone and throw in GH and insulin, gotta use that DNP...oh too jacked up on stimulants...gotta get some Valium to sleep...etc....