Carbs & AAS.....

[n4dmoney]

Hey Guys,

I know this has been discussed to some degree before but I want to truely get a full understanding of the topic.

Do you need carbs to optimally gain muscle mass while using AAS?

If you were on a med protein, high fat, low to no carb diet would you still be able to put on quality muscle mass during a cycle?

Without carbs/insulin how is water and other nutrition reaching the muscle cells?

Can you be in a high enough anabolic state to gain quality mass without carbs?

Thoughts?

 

[liftin4life]

I'll let you know in a few weeks!

I've been on the Body Opus diet for 5 weeks now. In the past 3 weeks...even with my total testosterone being 51ng/dl...I've increased my incline bench by 30lbs and 2 reps....my lat pulldowns by 40lbs...my weighted dips by 20lbs...and my seated close grip cable row by 40lbs. I've trained for 7 years so these are not new-training results. Once you get the carbup numbers right (varies per person)....the results are AMAZING.

Hopefully I'll be starting TRT (test replacement) tomorrow...and even though it is a low dosage...it may boost the effects of my already-effective program. However, since I'm gaining strength so quickly on this diet...it may be hard to tell which is doing what.

Either way...I'll keep you posted on any observations and you can decide whether or not you think they're relevant.

 

[FutureFreak]

I dont see why not. Of course a carb refeed every 5th to 7th day would be making the most of the diet. Dave Polumbo has good mass from his high fat, medium protein diet with carb refeeds or "cheats". Aminos are key here, but carbs eaten at the perfect times will further benefit muscle gains. Definitely stay leaner with the no carb approach and gain quality tissue when you do see the scale weight rise.

 

[liftin4life]

I dont see why not. Of course a carb refeed every 5th to 7th day would be making the most of the diet. Dave Polumbo has good mass from his high fat, medium protein diet with carb refeeds or "cheats". Aminos are key here, but carbs eaten at the perfect times will further benefit muscle gains. Definitely stay leaner with the no carb approach and gain quality tissue when you do see the scale weight rise.

It's interesting because I normally put on 12-15lbs over the weekend carbup (water and glycogen) and 1/2" to 3/4" on my arms...shirts are really tight and I fill them out...haha. By Wednesday, whatever I've gained in muscle that I'm going to keep stays...and the rest of the weight is gone (maybe 1/2 a pound leftover to keep). I'm doing it exactly as Duchaine's book says...24 meals in 48 hours...even waking up every 2 hrs to eat. Also tapering the GI's between liquid and solids...and back to liquids...to a T. Dan was a genius. The only thing on his diet that should be adjusted would be more ALA, Vanadyl, Chromium, and Cinnamon depending on how quickly your body can get back into ketosis.....and lowering of the carbs/kg if you have spillover. The first 2-3 carbups were experimental.

 

[n4dmoney]

L4L,

I've had good success with BodyOpus when I was not "ON". I liked it a lot. 36 hour carb up worked very well for me. I didn't like the circuit training that much though, want to stick with DC. I might have to give that a run during the second half of my current cycle (cutter).


FF,

Yeah might just use carbs and other goodies post workout to test it out. Go no carb all other times.

I just wanted to truely understand how things get delivered to the muscles without insulin.

 

[KillerStack]

I just wanted to truely understand how things get delivered to the muscles without insulin.

Protein will cause insulin release as well. Especially something like whey will boost blood glucose quite well through gluconeogenesis (remember the 'Fat Bastard' insulin program?). I remember in body opus Dan said to limit protein on the first depletion days because high protein will spare glycogen and limit fat burning.

If a diabetic gets on a no carb program his insulin requirement will not go to zero. It might not even decrease much at all.

 

[n4dmoney]

Protein will cause insulin release as well. Especially something like whey will boost blood glucose quite well through gluconeogenesis (remember the 'Fat Bastard' insulin program?). I remember in body opus Dan said to limit protein on the first depletion days because high protein will spare glycogen and limit fat burning.

If a diabetic gets on a no carb program his insulin requirement will not go to zero. It might not even decrease much at all.

KS,

That's right, I forgot about gluconeogenesis but are you suggesting that insulin is still the mechanism for water and nutritient delivery even when on a no carb diet?

 

[KillerStack]

KS,

That's right, I forgot about gluconeogenesis but are you suggesting that insulin is still the mechanism for water and nutritient delivery even when on a no carb diet?

I don't see why that would change. Insulin is still needed to deliver aminos and glucose to cells.

Found this, showing insulin levels fall though:

Hormonal and metabolic changes induced by an isocaloric isoproteinic ketogenic diet in healthy subjects.

Fery F, Bourdoux P, Christophe J, Balasse EO.

The effects of a 4-day isocaloric isoprotenic dietary replacement of carbohydrate by fats were studied in six healthy subjects, the experimental diet being preceded and followed by a 3-day period of balanced diet. During the ketogenic regimen, the concentrations of fat derived substrates (free fatty acids, glycerol and 3-hydroxybutyrate) rose significantly and glucose levels decreased by 16.5 +/- 3.2% (mean +/- SEM). The hormonal pattern switched towards a catabolic mode with a fall in insulin levels (-44.0 +/- 6.3%) and a rise in glucagon concentration (+39.0 +/- 10.4%). A significant fall in triiodothyronine and rise in reverse triiodothyronine were observed, while thyroxine levels remained unchanged. The average levels of the most important gluconeogenic amino acids (alanine, glutamine, glycine, serine and threonine) were reduced by 8-34% while those of the branched chain amino acids increased by more than 50%. Since these changes reproduce those observed after a few days of total fasting, we suggest that it is the carbohydrate restriction itself which is responsible for the metabolic and hormonal adaptations of brief fasting

 

[n4dmoney]

KS,

Definitely knew insulin would be lower without carbs. I thought during ketosis there is zero insulin produced/in the system. Wanted to know what other mechanism is delivering nutrients when insulin is not around. Maybe I need to read BodyOpus or The Ultimate Diet again to see if it talks about it.

Thanks for your feedback KS!

 

[KillerStack]

KS,

Definitely knew insulin would be lower without carbs. I thought during ketosis there is zero insulin produced/in the system. Wanted to know what other mechanism is delivering nutrients when insulin is not around. Maybe I need to read BodyOpus or The Ultimate Diet again to see if it talks about it.

Thanks for your feedback KS!

I remember Mauro DiPasquale (the anabolic diet, similar to body opus) saying that the type 1 diabetics he had seen try his diet couldn't lower their daily insulin use much. Just an example that insulin is still needed without carbs.

 

[n4dmoney]

Interesting......

 

[marshall]

If you're trying to gain, I would do carb re-feeds every 3-4 days or so, then I think you can possibly continue to put on mass. If you don't, you're muscle is going to become too dehydrated.

I still think it is better to stay more balanced to gain, but I guess it depends on your individual insulin sensitivity. 40-30-30 or 50-20-30 something along those lines.

If you're trying to lean out, then I think doing a weekly carb feed is ok to get along with until you've reached your goal, then get back into more of a balanced type diet.

 

[n4dmoney]

If you don't, you're muscle is going to become too dehydrated.

HUMAN JERKY!!!!!


Good feedback Marshall! Thanks!

 

[marshall]

Give it a try, just don't go 5 or 6 days for a carb re-feed like the Anabolic type diets suggest. I think that is more effective for someone who just plain has some bodyfat to lose. Depending on your insulin sensitivity it may work for you.

I actually think, from snippets I've read that Gironda put his guys on that type of diet, with carb feeds every 4th day I believe, someone who has his books can maybe straighten that out.

I'm not sure with the carb feeds, how long it would be before the muscle starts to become dehydrated from lack of carbohydrates pulling water into the tissue. If you try something, post up what you're doing and your results.