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Dealing with Growth Hormone Insulin Resistance (ameliorating rhGH-induced IR) [Type-IIx]

VaginaBoob89

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Sure, I can elaborate: you are The N-O-T-O-R-I-O-U-S, notorious, C-U-N-T, cunt, mate.

I don't know because I don't have that data, to get that sort of data in a reliable form and in bulk to be able to quantify with statistical methods and determine anything meaningful (significant) with respect to morbidity in enhanced bodybuilding is just not practically feasible, and I cannot answer any of your hypotheticals or questions. Certainly there are modulating factors like genetics and age. You're correct that I was mistaken in the dosage that Biggerp was using, it was 30 IU & 1.5 g Deca. Anyhow, I'm not sure that we should disentangle AAS from rhGH use since the two are almost exclusively used in combination in enhanced bodybuilding.

My own hypothesis is that a lot of guys are probably presently in that first (undetectable) stage of progression to cardiomyopathy from GH excess that are using supraphysiological rhGH; some will progress through to 3 and others will not.

I know it's scary.
I forgot a question... what about approaches that just use growth hormone periworkout? Does this have any efficacy in mitigating gh induced insulin insensitivity while still capitalizing on it's muscle building effects and synergy with insulin? What I mean is, can I get "most" of the benefits of insulin/gh using only R/Log around workouts and gh only pre or post workout? Training 5x/wk.
 

Lumpi

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I guess my plan going forward is to drop mk677, use 5ius of generics instead, and use insulin on high days only going into my next offseason phase.
I personally found MK677 to be one of the worst substances for insulin resistance, couple weeks in I constantly had pre diabetic bg levels. It is really not worth it.

It took a lot of effort, too, to bring up insulin sensitivity again.
 

luki7788

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I forgot a question... what about approaches that just use growth hormone periworkout? Does this have any efficacy in mitigating gh induced insulin insensitivity while still capitalizing on it's muscle building effects and synergy with insulin? What I mean is, can I get "most" of the benefits of insulin/gh using only R/Log around workouts and gh only pre or post workout? Training 5x/wk.
with all due respect, but there is too much scientific talk in this topic - I advise you not to worry about trifles, but train hard, eat properly and pining gear - it will work
 

JuicedMayhem

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Just a little experience I had which made me wonder about the whole insulin resistance thing. I went up to 6iu’s of hgh in the past 3 months then dropped it due to knee pain and wanting to see how I looked without the water weight. I noticed I developed massive sugar cravings in the next few days. Note that I had not touched sugars at all and had a super clean low carb diet for at least 3-4 months prior and suspected the hgh was the cause of these unusual cravings, I don’t exactly have a sweet tooth. Just putting it out there in case others had the same experience. It made me wonder how much it was actually that I couldn’t notice. Blood sugar fasted after cardio was 94 on the one and only time I checked during the 6iu run.
 

okko

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Just a little experience I had which made me wonder about the whole insulin resistance thing. I went up to 6iu’s of hgh in the past 3 months then dropped it due to knee pain and wanting to see how I looked without the water weight. I noticed I developed massive sugar cravings in the next few days. Note that I had not touched sugars at all and had a super clean low carb diet for at least 3-4 months prior and suspected the hgh was the cause of these unusual cravings, I don’t exactly have a sweet tooth. Just putting it out there in case others had the same experience. It made me wonder how much it was actually that I couldn’t notice. Blood sugar fasted after cardio was 94 on the one and only time I checked during the 6iu run.
I also did 4iu on a very low carb diet for weeks down to below 5%bf dexa scanned
I then went with lower less regular gh during 2 weeks and ate way too much of carbs Couldnt resist eating carbs not so much sugar but cereals rice.... I dont know If it would have been different if i kept on gh though...
Should have kept gh and added slin merformin berberine I think
 

Biggerp73

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We also have guys that have been diagnosed with congestive heart failure from 20 IU rhGH daily @Biggerp73 . So somewhere in between. Obviously, if you're looking for some clear dose/response for yourself, nobody knows. If I could predict the future, I'd be a trillionaire from the stock market; not posting about drugs on bodybuilding boards.

Cardiomyopathy secondary to chronic GH excess (concentric hypertrophy, increased LV mass [weight of the heart may increase up to 1300 g where < 250 g is normal]) correlates with duration more than dose, though structural changes can occur with short-term GH exposure. It is rare. GH/IGF-I exerts beneficial effects on cardiac growth and function within normal ranges (i.e., a Goldilocks problem: concentrations should be "just right.")

The natural history of cardiomyopathy secondary to chronic GH excess progresses through 3 stages:

1. The early stage is characterized by increased contractility, decreased vascular resistance, and a high cardiac output (not to be confused with systolic or diastolic BP; though systolic BP is a proxy for cardiac output interacting with pressure exerted against the arterial walls)... This stage has no demonstrable morphological abnormalities, although LVH has been observed without any evidence of diastolic dysfunction
2. The intermediate stage is characterized by biventricular hypertrophy, impaired diastolic filling, preserved systolic function at rest, and impaired exercise tolerance
3. In the late stage... cardiac chamber dilation, systolic dysfunction at rest, and congestive heart failure if left untreated

The effects of GH on cardiomyocyte growth and myocardial hypertrophy in GH excess differ from LVH caused by pressure overload. That is to say, controlling BP will not help you here.
It was upwards of 45iu per day and that was a long with DMAA and ephedrine preworkout and an extremely high salt diet
 

Type-IIx

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Oh ok, sorry bro, I was going by this Meso post where you stated that it was 30 IU GH and 1.5 g Deca
I see after expanding the post out you mentioned upwards of 45 IU for some time, and had only gone down to 30 IU for a week or so before the diagnosis.
 

hevi-head

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Just a little experience I had which made me wonder about the whole insulin resistance thing. I went up to 6iu’s of hgh in the past 3 months then dropped it due to knee pain and wanting to see how I looked without the water weight. I noticed I developed massive sugar cravings in the next few days. Note that I had not touched sugars at all and had a super clean low carb diet for at least 3-4 months prior and suspected the hgh was the cause of these unusual cravings, I don’t exactly have a sweet tooth. Just putting it out there in case others had the same experience. It made me wonder how much it was actually that I couldn’t notice. Blood sugar fasted after cardio was 94 on the one and only time I checked during the 6iu run.
I did pretty much the same thing. I upped GH then dropped it back due to water retention and had crazy sugar cravings myself
 

Type-IIx

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Just a little experience I had which made me wonder about the whole insulin resistance thing. I went up to 6iu’s of hgh in the past 3 months then dropped it due to knee pain and wanting to see how I looked without the water weight. I noticed I developed massive sugar cravings in the next few days. Note that I had not touched sugars at all and had a super clean low carb diet for at least 3-4 months prior and suspected the hgh was the cause of these unusual cravings, I don’t exactly have a sweet tooth. Just putting it out there in case others had the same experience. It made me wonder how much it was actually that I couldn’t notice. Blood sugar fasted after cardio was 94 on the one and only time I checked during the 6iu run.
Yes, relative or reactive hypoglycaemia post-rhGH cessation (relative to the hyperglycaemia while on rhGH) will do this.
 

OuchThatHurts

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So to give some advice: never stop the GH! :ROFLMAO:
I know you said this in jest but in all seriousness, I would recommend cycling GH to some extent. How much is up to you but I try to do (not always successfully) to a few months on a few weeks off. I hate coming off bc I immediately feel the crash but for the sake of your insulin sensitivity, hyperglycemia, and cardiac reasons. I always had great echos but my last echo showed some thickening of the left ventricular wall. Doc said nothing to be concerned about but that had never shown before.

He couldn't say if it was due to my GH use, increased weight over the winter, or increased cardio this spring and summer. But this heart is the only one I have. I'd like to think it has another 30 or 40 years of life in it. And I was getting pretty generous with my dosages and the tachycardia was real
 

qbkilla

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with all due respect, but there is too much scientific talk in this topic - I advise you not to worry about trifles, but train hard, eat properly and pining gear - it will work
This! I'm on another board where I see guys talking about dialing in their e2 and weather to run 10mg tren Ed or 20 eod,,,but they never post about training and bf is usually 20 percent.

Insulin sensitivity is great but I think they key is diet, staying lean, sure gh can impact it but taking the pre, post, before bed, these little details don't matter in the big picture.
 

Lumpi

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I know you said this in jest but in all seriousness, I would recommend cycling GH to some extent. How much is up to you but I try to do (not always successfully) to a few months on a few weeks off. I hate coming off bc I immediately feel the crash but for the sake of your insulin sensitivity, hyperglycemia, and cardiac reasons. I always had great echos but my last echo showed some thickening of the left ventricular wall. Doc said nothing to be concerned about but that had never shown before.

He couldn't say if it was due to my GH use, increased weight over the winter, or increased cardio this spring and summer. But this heart is the only one I have. I'd like to think it has another 30 or 40 years of life in it. And I was getting pretty generous with my dosages and the tachycardia was real
You are right and I fully agree.
 

juggy38

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I wonder if EOD dosing with insulin would be better for IR than daily dosing on a growth phase.

4iu ED vs 8iu EOD. Hit it with insulin to get the IGF conversion and not the daily exposure to elevated FFAs.
 

Type-IIx

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I wonder if EOD dosing with insulin would be better for IR than daily dosing on a growth phase.

4iu ED vs 8iu EOD. Hit it with insulin to get the IGF conversion and not the daily exposure to elevated FFAs.
Not so straightforward. Slin suppresses HSL potently (even at endogenous concentrations), therefore daily slin would reduce GH's effects on insulin resistance, but of course, itself directly worsens insulin resistance (HOMA-IR). Evidence in the wild of the "skinny fat" phenotype, characterized by individuals that eat extremely poorly (high FAT & high CHO processed foods, fatty meats exclusively) but are relatively active physically (sometimes blue-collar workers; sometimes comorbid with alcoholism, where gynecomastia can also present; and fatty liver is an inevitable result, despite caloric balance or deficit [here, fat cells are filled with lipid and never liberated, and slin induces fat deposition in liver despite there not being an energy surplus]). Beyond that fact, you start looking at different recombinant human insulin (rhI; slin) formulations' propensity to increase IGF-I bioavailability and activate IGF-IR directly (here, Lantus > *; but also most chronically suppresses fat oxidation) versus IRβ & IRα (IR-B & IR-A) activation.

The IR-A is expressed ubiquitously but is predominantly expressed in CNS, hematopoietic cells, and in cancer tissues. The IR-B is expressed predominantly in the liver, but is also substantially expressed in muscle & adipose tissue, the major target tissues for the metabolic effects of insulin. Both IR isoforms show great homology with the IGF-IR. The IGF-IR is found in most tissues and brings about mitogenic, pro-invasive, and anti-apoptotic effects.
So you start to consider the interplay between different rhI preparations and mitogenic versus metabolic effects (considering potencies to activate the homologous receptors; duration of activity; etc.)
 

BLang

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I wonder if EOD dosing with insulin would be better for IR than daily dosing on a growth phase.

4iu ED vs 8iu EOD. Hit it with insulin to get the IGF conversion and not the daily exposure to elevated FFAs.
Another thing to consider here. We know that IGF-1 increases appear to "top out" at a certain point with increasing doses of exogenous GH, therefore it's probably likely that once you're pushing that threshold, EOD dosing will result in lower IGF-1 than ED dosing.

i.e. 1iu ED vs 2iu EOD may result in relatively similar IGF-1 levels, but 4iu ED vs 8iu EOD may not. How big the difference would be is hard to say and would be individual of course.

Anecdotally, I recall people running into this issue when EOD dosing became the rage for awhile there a few years ago with the purpose of retaining sensitivity to exogenous GH (and therefore removing the need for periodic cycling).
 

Type-IIx

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Another thing to consider here. We know that IGF-1 increases appear to "top out" at a certain point with increasing doses of exogenous GH, therefore it's probably likely that once you're pushing that threshold, EOD dosing will result in lower IGF-1 than ED dosing.

i.e. 1iu ED vs 2iu EOD may result in relatively similar IGF-1 levels, but 4iu ED vs 8iu EOD may not. How big the difference would be is hard to say and would be individual of course.

Anecdotally, I recall people running into this issue when EOD dosing became the rage for awhile there a few years ago with the purpose of retaining sensitivity to exogenous GH (and therefore removing the need for periodic cycling).
I think that the point of diminishing returns in terms of GH response (the increase to IGF-I) to rhGH dose is quite high, > 18 IU/day. Given the half-life of somatotrophs (liver) and IGF-I synthesis & secretion, the dynamics are more on the macro- scale, i.e., time- rather than dose- controlling. That is, I don't think EOD dosing of rhGH significantly alters the factors that reduce GH response, chiefly, IGFBP dynamics. Rather, total weekly dose matters. Though, certainly, at least 6 days/week administration is best for GH response in short stature (height velocity), likely due to the dual effector nature of GH (it is not solely IGF-I nor GH that augments growth and mitogenic effects, but the complementary rather than sequential interplay between both growth factors [GH serving mainly as a signal that upregulates energy metabolite availability from the liver, reservoirs, and adipose tissue, whereas IGF-I facilitates their influx into peripheral cells]).
 

Thor65

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I always enjoy reading your posts type 2. Very informative and thought provoking stuff.
 

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