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Do we really need a calories surplus to gain muscle on High Doses of AAS

CaptainA

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There has been a poster here and on getbig, Buselmo, who advocated eating low calories for 5-6 days of the week (around 1800-2000), and eating more calories on 1-2 days of the week. He claimed that doing this he:

started at 84.5 kg 36 inch waist
finished at 91 kg 32 inch waist


So he lost the fat and gained muscle.


Is it possible to do that eating less calories?
 

Gunsmith

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More about nutritients than calories
 

RDS

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The energy to build the tissue has to come from somewhere. Biggest dudes I know tend to eat the most.
 

Muay Thai

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I can't consume more than 2k calories for over a decade without severe stomach and GI upset. I have a decent amount of size for taking almost a year off at a time succumbing to bad habits. I used to blast tons of aas as i had easy availability to it. Now I focus more on nutrient timing, bcaa, eaa, insulin and low dose aas and I am growing like a weed in most areas. I have been fasting on and off for a handful of years./ biceps are taking their sweet time its annoying af tendonitis cripples my lifts
 

CaptainA

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I can't consume more than 2k calories for over a decade without severe stomach and GI upset. I have a decent amount of size for taking almost a year off at a time succumbing to bad habits. I used to blast tons of aas as i had easy availability to it. Now I focus more on nutrient timing, bcaa, eaa, insulin and low dose aas and I am growing like a weed in most areas. I have been fasting on and off for a handful of years./ biceps are taking their sweet time its annoying af tendonitis cripples my lifts

Thanks for sharing your experience! So you did not stick to bulking as such and still managed to gain weight/size?
 

b-boy

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To gain MAXIMUM size you will need to be in a calorie surplus.

You can gain SOME muscle in a calorie deficit, depends on a lot of factors, but let's not shit ourselves, you want to be a very big motherfucker you better be able to eat a lot of food.
The key is to know when to push the food and when to take your foot off the accelerator, this will determine how much of your weight gain is lean muscle tissue and how much is fat.
 

danieltx

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This is like the modern day myth of lean bulking - just eat a 300 calorie surplus and you can stay ripped all year and gain muscle. Yeah, and you'll gain maybe 10lbs. over 10 years and your physique will always look the same.

Big amounts of physique-changing muscle take big amounts of food, end of story. AAS are just a supplement, they don't do much without the raw materials to build the muscle.
 

buck

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There has been a poster here and on getbig, Buselmo, who advocated eating low calories for 5-6 days of the week (around 1800-2000), and eating more calories on 1-2 days of the week. He claimed that doing this he:

started at 84.5 kg 36 inch waist
finished at 91 kg 32 inch waist


So he lost the fat and gained muscle.


Is it possible to do that eating less calories?
If he had 10's of thousands + of stored calories on his body he really isn't in a deficit. They are just coming from a different source. The leaner he gets that will change and growth will slow or stop. when I first started working out my weight dropped and my strength went up considerably.
 

qbkilla

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There has been a poster here and on getbig, Buselmo, who advocated eating low calories for 5-6 days of the week (around 1800-2000), and eating more calories on 1-2 days of the week. He claimed that doing this he:

started at 84.5 kg 36 inch waist
finished at 91 kg 32 inch waist


So he lost the fat and gained muscle.


Is it possible to do that eating less calories?

36 inch waist is pretty big. a guy carrying a ton of fat can do it. a lean guy who already has a 32 inch waist or is at 6 percent? doubtful. people carrying alot of fat can get away with alot
 

FrancisK

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You can look better without being in a surplus which would mean your muscles are more pronounced giving the appearance of being "bigger" but, given the notion of trading fat for muscle, wouldn't it be physically and relatively impossible to gain size if you're burning more calories than you consume?

Could totally be wrong haven't researched that but sounds like common sense.....


Myself personally I LOOK "bigger" when my fat is lower...again LOOK bigger, is that what you are referring to?
 

jeroendebleser

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Well the guy in the original post weighed a whopping 91 kg so there's your answer.
 

qbkilla

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Well the guy in the original post weighed a whopping 91 kg so there's your answer.

This. I thought buselmo was a big guy so those stats must have been his beginner gains. 184lbs at a 36 inch waist is a low end dad bod. 196 at 32 is a huge difference so he must have just started training and using aas
 

USMuscle9403

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36 inch waist is pretty big. a guy carrying a ton of fat can do it. a lean guy who already has a 32 inch waist or is at 6 percent? doubtful. people carrying alot of fat can get away with alot

Yep they sure can. Take it from a guy who started this at 320lbs
 

Cito33189

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The only way I was able to take it to the next level is increase the food. So much so I gave up the sport. I thought I could do everything needed. I did an off season with who I think is a good coach and the amount of food and the amount of money it cost to buy the food I was like I’m done.
Another point to I must have shitty genetics because if I don’t eat right when I take gear I look like shit. If you increased dosage without proper food intake I don’t think much would happen besides side effects. At least for me.
 

N.L....M.....

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I remember Buselmo. When he was off he would stop training and said he would get very small and skinny fat then go load up on drugs and diet 4 days a week and eat whatever for 3 days. When asked what he would consume on the 3 days in one post on Getbig he said it was whatever he had could be 500cals or 5000. He would also train to the point of what some would call overtraining.
He posted some pics of off vs on and he had a good response to things.

Here’s another of his posts.


let me make it clear and simple!
- YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WEIGH 250 LBS AT 5'8 TO LOOK HUGE!
- YOU CAN LOSE MORE THAN 2 LBS A WEEK, AND NO IT AINT GONNA BE MUSCLE!
- DEPEND 50% ON YOUR GEAR!
- IF YOU THINK YOU NEED A MINIMUM OF 15 CALS PER LB AT THE START OF YOUR DIET, YOU'RE IN FOR FAILURE!
- DON'T START OFF SLOW ON THE FAT BURNERS
- USE EVERY FAT BURNER YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON
- OVERTRAINING??? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
- CARDIO WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK WORSE
- 200 GRAMS OF PROTEIN IS MORE THAN ENOUGH TO DIET ON
- FAT IS THE ENEMY, AND CARBS ARE THE ENEMY... DON'T KID YOURSELF! THEY ALL SLOW DOWN PROGRESS!!!
 

jeroendebleser

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The only way I was able to take it to the next level is increase the food. So much so I gave up the sport. I thought I could do everything needed. I did an off season with who I think is a good coach and the amount of food and the amount of money it cost to buy the food I was like I’m done.
Another point to I must have shitty genetics because if I don’t eat right when I take gear I look like shit. If you increased dosage without proper food intake I don’t think much would happen besides side effects. At least for me.
It's like that for everyone bro. No one is getting huge on hypocaloric diets, no matter how much gear they are taking. The gear can't do anything if it isn't provided with sufficient building blocks.

But danieltx already said it all perfectly.
 

jeroendebleser

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I remember Buselmo. When he was off he would stop training and said he would get very small and skinny fat then go load up on drugs and diet 4 days a week and eat whatever for 3 days. When asked what he would consume on the 3 days in one post on Getbig he said it was whatever he had could be 500cals or 5000. He would also train to the point of what some would call overtraining.
He posted some pics of off vs on and he had a good response to things.

Here’s another of his posts.


let me make it clear and simple!
- YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WEIGH 250 LBS AT 5'8 TO LOOK HUGE!
- YOU CAN LOSE MORE THAN 2 LBS A WEEK, AND NO IT AINT GONNA BE MUSCLE!
- DEPEND 50% ON YOUR GEAR!
- IF YOU THINK YOU NEED A MINIMUM OF 15 CALS PER LB AT THE START OF YOUR DIET, YOU'RE IN FOR FAILURE!
- DON'T START OFF SLOW ON THE FAT BURNERS
- USE EVERY FAT BURNER YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON
- OVERTRAINING??? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
- CARDIO WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK WORSE
- 200 GRAMS OF PROTEIN IS MORE THAN ENOUGH TO DIET ON
- FAT IS THE ENEMY, AND CARBS ARE THE ENEMY... DON'T KID YOURSELF! THEY ALL SLOW DOWN PROGRESS!!!
I also remember him, he looked good for sure. But 91 kg's isn't big by any means. Not that it matters cause it's a visual sport but still...
 

Muay Thai

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Thanks for sharing your experience! So you did not stick to bulking as such and still managed to gain weight/size?

yes but I agree with what bboy said. I am an anomaly because I have a digestive disorder, I also do not cut corners in my training. I also was a hyper responder my first cycle I gained around 40-50lbs I have gnarly stretch marks from it. In my experience, I have slightly above average genetics (polish/Slavic) but nothing special, honestly - personally, I would be asking the more elite genetic and wiser guys like bboy. but if you want to know my routine and methodology sure anytime. During this time I also lifted light weight. Once I got in the shape, I maintained for years. I took 2 years off for muay thai I also had some destructive habits that took me out of bodybuilding as well during the last decade. In the last 2 years i have broke 3 ribs, 1 ankle and I got stabbed. I have arthritis from boxers breaks in all my hands. This is all from outside bodybuilding but my bones feel old. I am lifting heavy now but smart. I have 2 compressed discs in spine, maybe I will post pictures of my head injury from my TBI 2 year ago I flew headfirst through windshield in a car. My friends used to joke and say I have 9 lives. I haven't bulked since 2014 until just recently. I have had some stupid culturally-derived obsession with abs and "had" to maintain abs 24/7. I also never did any ab exercises with the exception to lots of core training in muay thai. I am only 5"9 barely. Yesterday I tried to eat chipotle with a betaine HCL + pepsin and it did not sit well lol. it felt like WW3 in my guts. I do well with the food GH15 recommended, I only drink most my meals because I have to. I would kill to eat big ass portions of meat and whole food like you guys, it handicaps my progress immensely. Remember the old proverb - if it aint broke dont fix it. What works for me works uniquely for my biological make up and what the creator imbued me with or lack there of :)
 

BoredStiff

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I’ve talked about this a bunch here, my apologies in advance to those who have heard this from me lol, but this thread is my jam.

Anyway, in 2017 I drastically cut down calories to around 1500ish, protein down to about 75-100gm, due to severe stomach issues. Followed a mostly ketogenic diet.

It’s 2021, so 3+ years and I’ve yet to lose an ounce of measurement size anywhere other than my waist, nor have I ever lost any strength. I’m not a bodybuilder, nor the biggest guy here by a long shot, I’m 5’7, around 165lbs , 18 inch neck, 42 chest, 28 waist (just to give you an idea... I’d say my height/size is similar to UFC fighter Sean Sherk), my waist was 32 before starting this. This isn’t exactly big obviously, but considering I’m down to like 40-80g of protein per day and still average about 1500 calories, I’d say it’s not too bad. Only on legit TRT.

The caveat? I started lifting 20 years ago, built all of my size on traditional stuff-your-face diet, and was on gear for like three years back in 2006ish. So I can only speak as someone maintaining what they already built. I do believe like the gentleman above me said, I am an anomaly and possibly hyper-responder to food? I have no cravings or hunger pangs on 1200-1500 calories, once I start going above 2000 I feel stuffed and just bloated and sick for hours on end, heart rate gets significantly elevated etc.

Not recommending it or not recommending it, I know nothing and just stumbled on this, I just know I look and feel significantly better doing this. There are a few here and there doing similar (Not sure if the link will work, not a techie guy lol)

 

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