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Does More Strength Equal More Size?

RazorCuts

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Point Counterpoint
Does More Strength Equal More Size?
1997

A few years ago my answer would have been, "Of Course!" - with a man-are-you-a-moron look thrown in for good measure. Now I think the truth is, more strength doesn't always mean more size, and it can even be a barrier to getting huge.
Say what? More strength can lead to no size gains? Yes, and even worse, it can lead to a size regression because getting stronger can cause people to lose touch with the factors that cause muscles to become outrageously massive - volume, supersets, giant sets and training each bodypart with many different exercises. That's my beef with strength coaches who try to retrofit their knowledge of gaining strength to bodybuilding. It's not the same thing, and it can do more harm than good.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't add weight to the bar or that adding weight doesn't cause fiber hypertrophy. I'm saying that strength is often just neuromuscular adaptation, not a muscle-size increase, so it doesn't equal size and you don't have to get stronger to get more size. I look at it this way: If you superset two exercises for the same bodypart for four sets., you'll exhaust the muscle and stimulate growth, but you wont be able to add weight very often. Will that build size? Of course!

Some people don't believe this, and their solution is to reduce volume. Okay, so now you do one warmup set and one all-out set to failure. Your total focus on one set produces a strength gain (hooray!) because you get better contractibility of specific fibers. (Notice I said "specific fibers," because it takes a lot of different exercises to exhaust the entire muscle.) When the nervous system adaptation stops, you introduce something like static-contraction training, which overloads the neuromuscular pathways again and gets your strength moving, at least for awhile. So maybe you get some growth in the few fibers a particular exercise lines up for best recruitment, but the rest will shrink and the muscle will get a smaller as whole.

Balls-to-the-wall multi-set, multi-exercise training is the only way to overload the majority of the fibers, stimulate growth-hormone surges, build the capillary network and goose muscle metabolism. Period.

If all you want is to see a strength increase, go ahead and do your short neuromuscular-pathway training. In the meantime I'll keep pounding away with multiple sets, lots of exercises and supersets. You may get to add five pounds to your exercises every other workout for awhile, but your medium-size T-shirt will start to get baggy. My XL is already feeling kind of tight.

--- Butch Lebowitz

Getting Stronger is the only way to get bigger. It's simple muscle physiology. To force a hypertrophic response in the fast-twitch fibers., you have to introduce an overload. You must do more work in the same amount of time, and that means adding poundage while trying to keep your reps in the eight-to-12 range, which studies conclude is best for stimulating the fast-twitch fibers that have the most potential for growth.
Take barbell curls as an example. If you curl 80 pounds for three sets of 10 at every workout and you continue to stop each set at 10 reps, your biceps aren't
Failing to change exercises is one of the big reasons that bodybuilders stop growing.
going to grow. If you add poundage as often as possible, forcing your biceps to continually cope with the new demand until eventually you're doing 190 for three sets of 10, your bicep swill be much, much larger due to hypertrophy in the fast-twitch fibers. Some of the strength may come from developed never pathways, but that just helps you add more weight so you can increase the overload and continue the hypertrophic response. When you reach a plateau, it's time to change exercises.

Failing to change exercises is one of the big reasons that bodybuilders stop growing. When you shift from squats to leg presses, for instance, you stimulate a few different neuromuscular pathways, and you get stronger for a few weeks. The increase in strength isn't extraneous to growth, however. It actually adds to the size you've built with squats. When you come back to squats in a few months, you won't be able to use as much weight as before, but it's not due to atrophy, it's do to loss of technique and coordination on the particular movement. Your strength will come back rapidly and surpass your previous best, at least it will if you do everything right. That means you eat to build size and you don't overtrain.

If you're not getting stronger on a particular exercise, substitute another movement. When you plateau on the new exercise, don't start adding a lot of sets and exercises, simply go back to the first movement. Do that regularly, and you'll no only continue to get stronger, but you'll also surpass you old size limitations because you'll sidestep overtraining most of the time.

-- Charlie West
 
maybe i'm reading it wrong but that butch guy is saying that by getting stronger you're gonna get smaller? what an idiot
 
yeah i agree with Charlie West...overload is a must for hypertrophy.

but adding weight is not the only way to create muscle overload or workload, increasing rep numbers with the same weight i believe is just as efficient...as long as the workload is being increase (heavier weight or more reps with the same weight) then strnegth and hypertrophy will happen.

i do believe strength gains are not linear do muscle gains.
 
Mentzer was wrong about many things.
 
you can get stronger without getting bigger. its what every athlete who competes in weight classes strives for...wrestlers, martial arts, powerlifters etc...high volume with low reps will help get you stronger but wont put much size on. ie 8sets of 2 reps.
 
Where is conan on this one.... hes the training expert... i believe DC is on the side of strength = muscle.
 
training expert? LOL

i'm just an indiot who read some books.

But for sure, strength will not always equal size. In fact, its possible to gain strength and lose size. Just look at how alot of powerlifters/olympic lifters have super human strength but are not very big. My 18 yr old brother is about 193 lbs and benches 405 lbs. There is alot of big guys who can't do that. Ronnie Coleman only squats 800 lbs or so. For how massive he is, that is not very good. While someone like Big byrd is doing over 1,000 in a 200 lb weight class.

Making muscles larger has more to do with creating Fatigue to the muscle itself. Making muscles rediculously strong has more to do with optimizing CNS output and teaching motorunits and muscle fibers to fire in unison to create the greatest force output possible.
 
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Conan21 said:
training expert? LOL


Making muscles larger has more to do with creating Fatigue to the muscle itself. Making muscles rediculously strong has more to do with optimizing CNS output and teaching motorunits and muscle fibers to fire in unison to create the greatest force output possible.

But when you get stronger, you can handle more weight and put more tension on the muscle, forcing it to grow no? If your mind muscle connection is there... i would think you would grow alot more doin a controlled 315x12 reps than you would 225x12 reps
 
TP4U

yes,I agree with that.

Thats why I think its good for bodybuilders to train for some form of maximal strength at times. The increased strenght will allow them to use heavier weights when they return to strictly hypertrophy oriented training.

Alot of bodybuilders who try to train for maximal strength and size all at once don't really get optimal results in either strength or size.

When vander posted videos of him self doing lat pull downs while on IRON MAN HIT, he was jerking the weight all around using pretty sloppy form while having a spotter help him through points of the exercise that were sticking points.

for size, its better to use precise form and target that resistance to where you are trying to put it. Doing this will allow much greater amounts of fatigue to the desired muscles. You should pay more attention to internal ques such as "where am i feeling this work" instead of external ones such as only basing things on weights and reps.

TP4U, I think you know this yourself as when you told me that you experienced better leg developement when you used less weight on squats; went deeper and tried not to lock the legs at the top. You used less weight but put a far greater tension on the muscles for a more true time under tension. Muscles don't know weight, they only know tension. This would be great for a bodybuilder but not for a powerlifter.

I think with bodybuilding, or anything for that matter, its not always what you do but how you do it.
 
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As a wrestler and a climber, it was always important to have the most strength per pound of bodywieght. I used to lift for just strength because size never really meant much to me since I knew if I let myself, I would grow. Which in those days, would have been bad. We'd always do many sets (20+) of low reps, high weight. Not always to failure. Or do super high reps (20 and up) for as many sets as possible. I always thought this approach more a muscle conditioning type of training and not growth-specific training which requires one "complete" work set, 4-8 reps, with decent time under load and then rest and food.

In those days, we never had time to rest. The next day, or even THAT day we'd have to sprint or have matches which wore you out totally and to make things even worse, the whole time you're sucking weight! That part sucked. What made up for it was when the ref raised your hand after the match.

As for climbing, that training was just hell. I could do a chin with one arm behind my back. Try that the next time you're at the gym.

Just my 2 cents.

Ouch
 
OuchThatHurts said:
As a wrestler and a climber, it was always important to have the most strength per pound of bodywieght. I used to lift for just strength because size never really meant much to me since I knew if I let myself, I would grow. Which in those days, would have been bad. We'd always do many sets (20+) of low reps, high weight. Not always to failure. Or do super high reps (20 and up) for as many sets as possible. I always thought this approach more a muscle conditioning type of training and not growth-specific training which requires one "complete" work set, 4-8 reps, with decent time under load and then rest and food.

In those days, we never had time to rest. The next day, or even THAT day we'd have to sprint or have matches which wore you out totally and to make things even worse, the whole time you're sucking weight! That part sucked. What made up for it was when the ref raised your hand after the match.

As for climbing, that training was just hell. I could do a chin with one arm behind my back. Try that the next time you're at the gym.

Just my 2 cents.

Ouch


Ouch what is your formula for growth? I did not get the jist in your post.

Thanks
RC
 
RazorCuts said:
Ouch what is your formula for growth? I did not get the jist in your post.

Thanks
RC

There's a couple but the most important would be (IMHO) that you do sufficient warmup in order to do one FULL work set to failure in the 4-8 rep range. Once you can do that weight for more than 8, add enough weight to get you down to 2-4 reps again and start over. I try to still hit 4 though because I don't feel that 2 reps gives the my muscles enough time under load. Hit 8, add more weight again, etc. But getting in that work set is only the first part. You MUST rest and feed that bodypart for 5-7 days at least and up to two weeks for other bodyparts. This has been what has worked for me. I'm sure my routine could use some tweaking and I'm going to invest in some here soon. Strength increases in small increments but overall size increases because you're introducing a weight that muscle has not done before.

This is what I've been doing along with throwing in a few high rep days as well as some cardio. Keep mixing things up. And keep a very close watch on your tendons. You can press your thumb in deep and feel the connections close to the bone... If there is soreness there, wait until it's gone.

Phil, DC, BigA, and many others ere have a TON of knowledge in these areas so those would be the right guys to ask, lot lil' ole' me.
 
PLUS! These days I'm leaving the gym before other guys are done doing their biceps (usually with the same weight I saw them doing the week before and the week before, etc.) LOL
 
Ouch its that i agree with you and its basically what my HSIT routine is based around. Using reps in the 5-10 range though as it seems more hypertrophy is caused in these rep ranges as long as a 30 sec or greater TUL is used. The only thing is i have found higher frequency is better for hypertrophy. Naturals do better with 2x a week bodyparts also.
Yes rest and eating are very important for growth as the workout is probably the least as Phil says.
Also genetics play a huge role as the elite can grow on almost any routine.

RC
 
RazorCuts said:
Ouch its that i agree with you and its basically what my HSIT routine is based around. Using reps in the 5-10 range though as it seems more hypertrophy is caused in these rep ranges as long as a 30 sec or greater TUL is used. The only thing is i have found higher frequency is better for hypertrophy. Naturals do better with 2x a week bodyparts also.
Yes rest and eating are very important for growth as the workout is probably the least as Phil says.
Also genetics play a huge role as the elite can grow on almost any routine.

RC
This is where things get blurry because everyone's physiology is bit different. For me, let's say I'm getting close to that 8 number on my work set. If that workout I hit 8 with a particular weight, all slow 2/1 style, I KNOW I'm moving my weights the next week. Almost for a fact. Because the 8 reps had my muscles doing a ton of work over a decent length of time. Not too long, not too short. Right now I'm in a strength upswing which will plateau... then I'll be back on here, asking for opinions. I also forgot to mention that I think it's good to take a FULL week off once every 2-3 months. Every two being better. But some guys may not get the tendon issues I get.

[edit] in answer to your initial post, there are factors like fast/slow twitch fibers, musculoskeletal leverage, etc. that play a role in strength but the FACT is that eventually, you WILL NEED more muscle fiber to move more weight which = more size. Just no way of getting around it.
 
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i also think that TUT-time under tension has a lot to do with building strength or hypertrophy. charles poliquin recommends 0-20sec tut for strength related gains and 40-60sec for hypertrophy. so for us DC guys a 4 sec negative followed by a 2sec concentric phase would give 6 sec TUT and if we hit about 8reps on our initial RP then we are at 48sec or in the hypertrophy range.
 

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