EQ and Heart Problems?

[Massive G]

Could you please post the studies you are talking about. We were discussing this in another thread and I'd love to see the studies that show EQ to be much more potent than other steroids in this regard. Also if you know of any studies showing anadrol being more potent than, say, d-bol or any other oral in this regard.

If you have the studies this issue can quickly be put to rest.

I posted an article by Llewellyn in the other thread and he hadn't found any evidence for EQ being a superior RBC booster either.

Bump and I think that's all Km2000 was debating with you (Alpha) about EQ is that we would like to see some literature proving this in humans.
I don't think there are any human studies done with EQ like TA but I could be wrong.

 

[terryd5150]

let me get this straight, you saw a significant increase in your rbc's and you experienced a PROFOUND decrease in your cardiovascular performance? i am i missing something here?

Don't have the numbers in front of me (I'm at work-dammit ), didn't have a baseline anyway. Doc simply used a guildline for non-anemic 30 y/o males.

How would a decrease in cardio performance be unusual? Doesn't a significant increase in RBCs THICKEN the blood? Would that not in turn make it harder for the heart to pump (and higher BP) thereby causing decreased cardio performance? Seems to make perfect sense to me.

That was at a dose of 400 mgs/wk EQ, 600 mgs/wk Test C.

 

[Magnum]

Don't have the numbers in front of me (I'm at work-dammit ), didn't have a baseline anyway. Doc simply used a guildline for non-anemic 30 y/o males.

How would a decrease in cardio performance be unusual? Doesn't a significant increase in RBCs THICKEN the blood? Would that not in turn make it harder for the heart to pump (and higher BP) thereby causing decreased cardio performance? Seems to make perfect sense to me.

That was at a dose of 400 mgs/wk EQ, 600 mgs/wk Test C.

Define significant increase.

 

[Fa Seeshus]

are we sure that all of these negative effects are from the elevated crit?

EQ has also has lovely sides such as muscle/tendon tightness and anxiety.

 

[terryd5150]

Define significant increase.

Honestly, it would be hard for me to as I don't have the numbers in front of me (but I will look for them when I get home).

The doc said it was "sky-high" for a non-anemic 30 year-old male, perhaps I was wrong to make the assumption that he knew what he was looking at?

Look, we've all had this debate before and I'm not going to argue it again.

The facts on the matter are this: I felt like shit, BP was through the roof, and my cardio performance was SIGNIFICANTLY decreased after 10 weeks of 400mgs eq 600 mgs Test C per week. I had run that same cycle with the same doses using Deca and didn't have those problems.

I'm not saying that EQ is a shitty drug, I loved it in every other aspect and I'm not saying everyone's reaction will be the same. But I am saying what happened to me with it.

Guys, you can't agrue with me about what it actually did when I took it by saying "studies don't show that" and I really believe you are going to have a hard time finding legitimate, credible studies regarding EQ use in humans considering it has no medically approved use for humans so it can't be prescribed legally.

Hell, I don't get Deca dick or gyno, but they do happen to some people- so why is it so hard to believe that some people are going to be adversely affected by any other compound?

 

[Magnum]

Honestly, it would be hard for me to as I don't have the numbers in front of me (but I will look for them when I get home).

The doc said it was "sky-high" for a non-anemic 30 year-old male, perhaps I was wrong to make the assumption that he knew what he was looking at?

Look, we've all had this debate before and I'm not going to argue it again.

The facts on the matter are this: I felt like shit, BP was through the roof, and my cardio performance was SIGNIFICANTLY decreased after 10 weeks of 400mgs eq 600 mgs Test C per week. I had run that same cycle with the same doses using Deca and didn't have those problems.

I'm not saying that EQ is a shitty drug, I loved it in every other aspect and I'm not saying everyone's reaction will be the same. But I am saying what happened to me with it.

Guys, you can't agrue with me about what it actually did when I took it by saying "studies don't show that" and I really believe you are going to have a hard time finding legitimate, credible studies regarding EQ use in humans considering it has no medically approved use for humans so it can't be prescribed legally.

Hell, I don't get Deca dick or gyno, but they do happen to some people- so why is it so hard to believe that some people are going to be adversely affected by any other compound?

No arguing bro. You know your body better than anyone. Just thought maybe you may have missed something else that may have been doing this. It may be too much trouble but it would be great if you could find out your number so we could know what he meant by sky high. If they were that high I am kind of surprised he didn't want to take some blood or something. Do you remember your BP reading? maybe you already posted it so sorry if I missed it.

 

[terryd5150]

No prob, Magnum...

... If they were that high I am kind of surprised he didn't want to take some blood or something. Do you remember your BP reading? maybe you already posted it so sorry if I missed it.

He did take blood, had a full panel done. Everything was within range for a 30 y/o male on cycle (AAS friendly doc in my area).

BP was 195/120.


Doc gave me some blood thinners and told me to start donating blood on a regular basis. I dropped the thinners after my BP came down to normal and haven't had BP issues since, even when on cycle.

Additional info: the EQ cycle was my third cycle. I hate I had those issues, because other than that I really liked EQ as an anabolic.

 

[Magnum]

He did take blood, had a full panel done. Everything was within range for a 30 y/o male on cycle (AAS friendly doc in my area).

BP was 195/120.


Doc gave me some blood thinners and told me to start donating blood on a regular basis. I dropped the thinners after my BP came down to normal and haven't had BP issues since, even when on cycle.

Additional info: the EQ cycle was my third cycle. I hate I had those issues, because other than that I really liked EQ as an anabolic.

You definatley have some issues with EQ. At least you have many other choices though. One thing that I have always wondered is why they make it in such a low dose (50mg/ml).

I remember years ago when MIT first came out I tried it. I got freaky strong after about 3 days!, but I noticed I started to feel funny and started to get headaches. I took my BP one night and it was 190/115. I lowered my dose from 20mg daily to 10mg then to 5mg then I just came off. No matter what dose I took I still felt like crap. Of course MIT is way more toxic than EQ, but just an example of how people respond differently.

 

[dragonfire101]

Donate blood while on and take small dose of asprin every night and it will help with the RBC.

 

[km2000]

Don't have the numbers in front of me (I'm at work-dammit ), didn't have a baseline anyway. Doc simply used a guildline for non-anemic 30 y/o males.

How would a decrease in cardio performance be unusual? Doesn't a significant increase in RBCs THICKEN the blood? Would that not in turn make it harder for the heart to pump (and higher BP) thereby causing decreased cardio performance? Seems to make perfect sense to me.

That was at a dose of 400 mgs/wk EQ, 600 mgs/wk Test C.

ya if we had your base line it would be easier to figure out.... i have a buddy who's crit was 54 naturally(no aas or any other supps) so i am curious as to what yours was..

the doc might have blown your condition out of proportion, like mag said if it was sky high i would assume he would have taken more drastic measures...when you get the numbers post em up, im curious....

also if the blood was thickened by an increased rbc, your oxygen carrying capicity would be much greater! thus improving your cardio performance... this is why cyclist take epo, it increases their rbc(which carry oxygen through the blood) and it helps them to perform longer and harder(increased performance) so that was why i was confused about your post, does that make sense?

i have used epo befor and felt like a million bucks while on it, i got my crit elevated a few % and it was nothing short of amazing. i am not an endurance athlete (im a bb) and it made all the differance in the world in my recovery and performance in the gym.... this is why i am a bit confused as to why you felt so shitty, and i also felt your increased rbc linked directly to eq was not the problem.( i may be wrong though)...

any how post your rbc when you get to your paper, thanks

 

[terryd5150]

...
also if the blood was thickened by an increased rbc, your oxygen carrying capicity would be much greater! thus improving your cardio performance... does that make sense?

In theory it ALMOST does. The part I disagree with, especially after having been down that road, is the key words "thicker blood".

Thicker blood is going to make your BP go up, causing your heart to work harder and thereby REDUCING cardio performance.

I was able to rep out more with higher weights (better endurance from the increased oxygen I guess) but I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without getting extremely winded (decreased cardio output due to thicker blood/higher BP).

Does my take on it make sense?

 

[terryd5150]

....One thing that I have always wondered is why they make it in such a low dose (50mg/ml)....

Mine was 200mgs/mL. Eurochem. Can't say that shit wasn't real!

 

[km2000]

In theory it ALMOST does. The part I disagree with, especially after having been down that road, is the key words "thicker blood".

Thicker blood is going to make your BP go up, causing your heart to work harder and thereby REDUCING cardio performance.

I was able to rep out more with higher weights (better endurance from the increased oxygen I guess) but I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without getting extremely winded (decreased cardio output due to thicker blood/higher BP).

Does my take on it make sense?

well its not theory, its actually fact! that increased rbc will increase oxygen capicity... you take asprin and a few other blood thinners while on epo to keep the blood pressure in check and it works just fine... the trick is to moniter bp and not let it get out of whack... your take on it makes sense in laymens terms but there are much more factors to consider than what we are talking about here....

 

[Massive G]

For keeping the clotting down I take bromelain and ginger root as well as fish oils help with anti-clotting as I carry a naturally high hematocrit and also I don't take FE supps either all my vitamins are iron free.

I stop all the supps, a week before blood donation as well as not working out 2-3 days before as it will raise liver enzymes.

By experience donating a pint of blood will drop my crit by on average 2%.
this thread shows how different we all are.

EQ is one powerful anabolic puppy even at 50 mg per ml.

 

[AlphaMale]

Bump and I think that's all Km2000 was debating with you (Alpha) about EQ is that we would like to see some literature proving this in humans.
I don't think there are any human studies done with EQ like TA but I could be wrong.

I think I spoke much too fast with the studies part, as I believe you are right as far as human studies. I am almost positive that I have seen several done on horses and dogs and is part of the reason it was used extensively with race horses. I do have something on Anadrol in the garage though that I pull out, and who knows maybe EQ - since it is very well generally accepted that it does; I see what I can come up with as I wish for this to be a civil discussion which thankfully it has, as we can all learn a thing or two.

The gist of my discussion, I was not trying to argue, was that high RBC and "thick blood" would likely cause the conditions mentioned. KM2000 should know better than me, but I believe that athletes using EPO cycle it for short periods to avoid a decrease in performance - usually using only before a big event, but I could be wrong.

One other important thing is that even though I stand behind my statements about the conditions that high RBC can cause, whether or not there is scientific proof on humans with EQ that it does or not; if it does on one person, then they might face long-term/w/use problems, while another person might not have the raised RBC and therefore no problems in that regards - empirical data, interpreded correctly, always has it's place. It really doesn't matter if someone gets high RBC from eating potatos, the long-term condition can and will cause vascular problems.

 

[AlphaMale]

It usually takes three+ months for RBC to return to normal ...and of note; personally when only running test at around 600mg and Masteron around 400mg my counts are never out of range.

Here's a post I did on EQ on another site that fits nicely here: EQ can/does cause high blood pressure, it also increases Red Blood Cell (RBC) count more that any aas other than Anadrol that I am aware of. This raise in RBC is a good thing as far as endurance goes to a certain point and length of time; while a high RBC helps carry oxygen and improves endurance and is why endurance athletes try to increase it though various techniques and drugs; it also causes thick blood. Thick blood is the result of the high RBC causing more release of thrombin resulting in the higher production of a substance called soluble fibrin monomer (SFM). SFM is a sticky protein that increases blood viscosity (thickness) and results in the deposit of fibrin on the endothelial cells lining the blood vessels. when fibrin coats the walls of the capillaries, nutrient and oxygen delivery to muscle, nerve, bone and organ tissue is serverely compromised. The combination of an AI and EQ could have some very negative effects or at least enhance the bad ones of thick blood and vascular damage. AI's can compromise the endothelial cells lining the capillaries. Heparans are your body's natural blood thinners, and capillaries and viens are the source of heparans. When heparans are compromised by the lack of estrogen then blood cannot be thinned as easily by your body, and again the raise in RBC causes fibrin to coat those cells so that the heparans cannot be released, reducing the body's ability to dissolve the fibrin and in the long run.....causing thicker blood.....causing high blood pressure.....causing fatigue.....causing vascular issues/damage.
While these conditions are not unique to EQ, they are much more pronounced.

If you take out my mis-spoken parts on EQ causing high RBC, the point I failed to try to relay is that IF it or anything does that THIS is what potential happens.

I only reposted the important part as many fail to understand why high RBC can be so benficual to an athlete for only a period of time (all dependant on the person) and why in the long-run high RBC can cause a decrease in performance.

 

[km2000]

alpha, i think we are agreeing with each other but just kind of misunderstood what we were both trying to convey.... anyway i see your point and it is valid, i dont like to argue either but it is always good to have a thread that good points are made in and has some decent info as well...(i'm getting tired of trying to figure out which is best eq or deca?) haha

take care man....keep posting here you seem to have some good info.. thanks

 

[aesop]

Ok guys here is the thing everyone responds differently to different drugs. Depending on the individual EQ may or may not have a more profound effect on crit levels. Whether or not EQ is the cause of heart problems by itself or if it is a result of increased blood pressure I am not sure. I know my friend stopped using it because it dramatically increased his BP and not necessarily because it raised his crit.

Alphamale: I am asssuming in your earlier post AI was referrring to aromatase inhibitors which you are then tying to low estrogen leading to endothelial trauma. Possible but not likely if someone is using the right AI and not abusing it. I am then not aware of the point you are making. Are you saying EQ prevents HEPARIN formation which leads to thicker blood, or that low estrogen does this? because they arent the same thing. And Alpha Male I don't think you know nearly as much as you think you do any body can list a few words and consistently spell the one they make the biggest deal about wrong, but that doesnt mean you actually know how it works and why.

To your point in another post that a high crit will lead to vascular problems that is complete and utter bullshit. If you have high blood pressure yes, but a high crit (52-54) does not necessarily cause high blood pressure, if you can maintain healthy BP and boost crit endurance performance will increase. If you are cardiovascularly active and you keep your blood pressure in optimal range you will not have an enlargening of the heart or thickening of the left ventricle which would typically be cause by high blood pressure and or only weight lifting and not doing any cardiovascular activity to balance to stresses you place on your heart.

The best thing for anyone using AAS is if something raises your BP then dont use it, you should be able to find something else that doesn't. Maintain HDL above 40 and get plenty of antioxidants, cardiovascular activity, and when you do get blood test have them check for inflammatory markers including c-reactive protein and homocysteine keep those things in check and you should be able to maintain a high level of health.

km2000, I feel that you don't know as much as you think you do and are being defensive. My post was about the effects of long-term high RBC and the negative effects that it causes. Dispute that if you wish and good luck. I tied EQ into it as it has been shown in published papers and empirical data to increase RBC more than almost any steroid other than Anadrol. So if EQ raises RBC and by raising RBC it causes X then I feel very comfortable in backing my post 100%


I would love for you to share you extensive knowledge here, seems that you are just making up a number as Test at half that dose would cause a much higher increase than 1%. Do you get blood work done? I do.


Yes, appearantly. My post explained this very well I thought.


Again my post explain that IF EQ raised RBC more than other steroid then yes. I simply explained the potential damage from long-term high RBC. Take what you want from that. If EQ magically defies physics, or does not raise RBC then I am wrong and am sorry.

I can post many studies and articles on the effects of high RBC, Thick Blood, high blood pressure, thrombin, soluble fibrin monomer, blood viscosity, capillaries, nutrient and oxygen delivery, endothelial cells, Heparans, estrogen, fatigue, etc. OR YOU CAN GOOGLE THEM and save us all time and come back with specifics, rather than disputing this without any backing and just saying that you've done all this research and know so much...know what? What was wrong with my post? Please let me know, so I can learn. In advance I apalagize if I am getting too defensice myself, I just feel that disputes should come with facts and not fingers.

 

[STEEDA69]

Hypertension resulting from AAS use, USUALLY results due to an increase in extracellular fluid, (edema). Abnormal CBC readings are USUALLY an indication of "other" potential problems. While RBC count is important, the most important reading (of the RBC indicies) is the MCV which basically determines the SIZE of the RBC!

I've used EQ extensively over the years, usually in conjunction with other AAS and I've never had a RBC reading which was excessively elevated. More importantly, my MCV was never elevated at any time. EQ has always been the favorite AAS used by vet's for ACTIVE race horses. Gee...I wonder why???

I don't believe that EQ is any more responsible for Heart/Cardiovascular problems than any of the other AAS. It's always a good idea to get blood-work done (which almost NO-ONE does) AND check your blood pressure regularly while ON! You cannot FEEL high blood pressure; which is why it's often referred to as "the silent killer."

JD~

 

[AlphaMale]

Ok guys here is the thing everyone responds differently to different drugs. Depending on the individual EQ may or may not have a more profound effect on crit levels. Whether or not EQ is the cause of heart problems by itself or if it is a result of increased blood pressure I am not sure. I know my friend stopped using it because it dramatically increased his BP and not necessarily because it raised his crit.

Alphamale: I am asssuming in your earlier post AI was referrring to aromatase inhibitors which you are then tying to low estrogen leading to endothelial trauma. Possible but not likely if someone is using the right AI and not abusing it. I am then not aware of the point you are making. Are you saying EQ prevents HEPARIN formation which leads to thicker blood, or that low estrogen does this? because they arent the same thing. And Alpha Male I don't think you know nearly as much as you think you do any body can list a few words and consistently spell the one they make the biggest deal about wrong, but that doesnt mean you actually know how it works and why.

To your point in another post that a high crit will lead to vascular problems that is complete and utter bullshit. If you have high blood pressure yes, but a high crit (52-54) does not necessarily cause high blood pressure, if you can maintain healthy BP and boost crit endurance performance will increase. If you are cardiovascularly active and you keep your blood pressure in optimal range you will not have an enlargening of the heart or thickening of the left ventricle which would typically be cause by high blood pressure and or only weight lifting and not doing any cardiovascular activity to balance to stresses you place on your heart.

The best thing for anyone using AAS is if something raises your BP then dont use it, you should be able to find something else that doesn't. Maintain HDL above 40 and get plenty of antioxidants, cardiovascular activity, and when you do get blood test have them check for inflammatory markers including c-reactive protein and homocysteine keep those things in check and you should be able to maintain a high level of health.

Re-Read my posts, the answers are there. Again think in terms of what high RBC can/will do, not EQ, but rather IF EQ raises RBC high. Spend a little time on google or another search engine and you will see the error in some of your statements.